XRGB-3

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:10 am

anything special is 10-times the price. Those things can really get expensive. The Gefen I'm using is usually $330, but only because it includes a scaling engine to 1080p. I've seen those $40 units work on a DC at a friends' and they seem to be fine for a simply A/D conversion.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:20 am

Like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/N127-PC-HDPC-HDTV ... 240%3A1318

I guess that will output the signal from DC and XRGB-3 in 480p right? The vertical resolution will match but will it destroy the horizontal? Do you think lag will be an issue?

You will have to copy paste the link... I don't know why.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:23 am

I guess that will output the signal from DC and XRGB-3 in 480p right?

Yes & no. It'll do what you think it does, but it should output VGA instead of 480p. The difference is how your TV interpretates the signal and which aspect ratio controls you're offered.

The vertical resolution will match but will it destroy the horizontal? Do you think lag will be an issue?

output should be 100% the input with both the vertical and horizontal frequency and lag should be no issue (at least it is not on my converter and don't think there was any lag on my friend's setup). Depending on your TV the HDMI input might generally have more lag than the VGA input, but this really depends on your TV model.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:38 am

I just read a review of my tv and it said that there was good reason for Sony dropping the Game Mode as there was very little delay. Since they testet it with a PS3 i assume they where talking about HDMI

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Sony-KDL40W4000/

Thanks for the help. 40$ is a small price to pay to fix that minor bug on my tv

zap · Post by **zap** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 3:12 am

Fudoh: I see what you mean. It doesn't turn out that bad for me though. Right now I'm playing III with scanlines set to around 199, and I like it. I'll try to take a picture later today.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:16 pm

Right now I'm playing III with scanlines set to around 199

horizontal scanlines (VL_V setting) between 160 and 200 are great, I just don't get what's the sense of those dark *vertical* bars (VL_H setting).

zap · Post by **zap** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:10 pm

Yeah, just horizontal scanlines. I don't know, maybe the purpose of veritcal scanlines is for people who would want horizontal scanlines when playing tate shmups. I doubt everyone get those thick bars you get.

One question before I buy cables: any quality loss by going with a VGA to DVI-D from the computer to the box? Would it be able to display 1650 x 1050 for the computer picture?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:17 pm

VGA to DVI-D

There's no such thing. Only VGA to DVI-A. I can't comment on it though as I've never tried the whole Passthrough and PiP function.... sorry.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:08 am

I got that VGA to HDMI converter today. As you said it works great without any noticeable quality loss or any lag at all.

And as i hoped it solved my problem. Except for some very minor shaking the picture is as good and stable as i think its ever going to be.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... C00723.jpg

But i still can't get used to the scanlines. I can see how they look exactly like an old CRT screen, but i don't think the games look any worse without them.

When i compared B1 with no scanlines (640x480) with B0 upscaling to 1280x1024 there was very little difference if any at all in the picture. Maybe its just my TV that does an excellent job upscaling 640x480 but now i don't really see the point in using B0 mode any longer. Any lag has been eliminated (never noticed anything) and everything will play with V-sync on.

Only problem with this VGA to HDMI converter is that it takes a little longer to get a picture when the XRGB switches from 240p to 480i and vice versa, but i can't think of a game where that's ever gonna be a problem.

Also i don't get a picture any more when my Saturn is switched to 50hz mode. Normally i would get a crappy stuttering picture placed way too low on the screen. This could be the VGA to HDMI converter, B0 mode or V-sync. I will have to check that later.

Still a very nice and very cheap converter (240DKK incl shipping from HK), and the PSU will accept both 110V and 240V which is great! I will definitely get one more for use with my Dreamcast to solve the same problem as i had with the XRGB-3.

Animaitor · Post by **Animaitor** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:43 am

Hi all. Just got a XRGB-3 recently and I could not recommend it enough to people with old consoles and LCD displays looking for a near arcade experience in terms of image representation of your games. With the right settings you can get wonderful scanlines and awesome image quality if you connect your consoles with RGB cables.

I run into a weird problem with the XRGB-3 though. Since it was new, I downloaded the latest drivers from Micomsoft (2.11 I believe) and when using the B1 mode I could only go up to 248 values on the vertical lines leaving an annoying pattern (I guess if I could go to 255 those light vertical lines would disappear). It might be hard to see on the image below but take a look at the light blue area...

Also when I use the Neo Geo AES with either the RGB cable or composite on the XRGB-3 a weird wave deformation comes up on the LCD monitor (upper side) and for no apparent reason the screen goes black once in a while as if the XRGB-3 could not get any image feed or got out of sync. I think the problem is on the XRBG-3 because when I connect the Neo Geo directly to the LCD monitor or the a CRT (only with the composite cables) the screen looks fine and no blackouts happen. Remember that this Neo Geo's serial number is below 83.000 (more info here: http://nfggames.com/games/neorgb/ )

In this image we can see the info that comes from the XRGB-3 already distorted. That is another reason why I believe the problem is in the XRGB-3 and not the Neo Geo.

This capture shows how the image is displayed when connecting a Neo Geo AES to a XRGB-3 with an official RBG cable (same distortion if using a composite cable) and a VGA from the XRGB-3 to a Dell 24" LCD monitor.

In here we have the Neo Geo connected to a Sony CRT using the composite cable (one video and one audio only). The image quality is worst IMHO and there's some image cutoff but there's no distortion or blackouts during gameplay.

The strange thing is it only happens with the Neo Geo... the rest of my consoles run great when using the XRBG. Any clues as for why this is happening?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:28 am

Hi there, you read my beginner's guide ? If not, do so: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

The first problem is a firmware bug. If you go back to 2.07 on B0 (!) you'll be able to go to 255 at the scanlines setting in B1 again. I've mailed Micomsoft about it (in japanese) and it'll hopefully get fixed

The second is a setting issue. You have to adjust the AFC setting from 0 or 1 to 4 or 5. I've had the same on my PC Engine.

Have fun!

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:33 pm

I had the same problem with the bending screen and blackouts on my Japanese MegaDrive1. Changing the AFC helped but never did solve the problem completely.

One of Fudoh's friend showed me this:

http://www.gamesx.com/misctech/lm1881.htm

Its a chip that you input seperate sync or composite sync into and it removes the composite signal and outputs pure sync, and it solved all my problems

GND and 5V can be found in the MD RGB cable but i'm not sure if the Neo Geo RGB cable has a 5-12V signal in it. If not you can install the sync chip inside the machine instead, the result will be the same.

I bought 5 LM1881 chips on eBay for about 20$.

Here is a picture that shows my problem with the MD:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1240237867

And one of the MegaDrive RGB cable with the chip installed:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e236/ ... 1240237907

I'm pretty sure this will help if changing the AFC setting doesn't.

EDIT: The chips i got are much smaller than the one showed on the gamesx site. 30 AWG kynar wire will be a good choise when soldering on the smaller chips.

The red large thing in the picture (actually shrinking tube) does not contain the chip but the 0.1uF things which in my case are rather huge, i'm pretty sure you can get them smaller. The white shrinking tube is where the chip is...

EDIT2: Actually the LM1881 chips have many uses, it can also split ordinary sync to vertical and horizontal sync, which should convert component (progressive scan) to VGA. Here is a link that shows how to make a VGA cable for PS2, but i have yet to try that myself

:

http://skygate.bravehost.com/PS2_VGA_cable.html

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:04 pm

The Mega Drive does output a pure composite sync signal in addition to the Video/FBAS signal already. Of course you do nothing wrong by installing a LM1881, but it would be worth changing to the "stock" sync signal first. The Neo Geo also has a pure sync output - depending on the hardware revision. Those AES units without a sync output don't have the best RGB quality anyway, so it's worth adding a LM1881 on those in every case.

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:25 pm

Fudoh wrote:The Mega Drive does output a pure composite sync signal in addition to the Video/FBAS signal already.

Yes and switching to that helped alot, but still the picture would flicker in rare cases. So in that case the sync chip was the only thing that worked 100%

Animator you should try the AFC settings first. If that doesn't work try switching the sync signal in the cable, and if that still doesn't work use the LM1881.

zap · Post by **zap** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:34 am

What are your guys settings for SFC? With the same settings I use for Saturn, which I'm quite satisfied with, I get alot of ghosting on SFC, especially in Super Mario World. Also some noise on the blue sky. I tried adjusting the A/D level but that only made the picture brighter. I'm using true RGB cables for both, in B0 mode via DVI-D. I tried to take a picture. You can see the blue sky I mentioned and ghosting/bleeding on Mario and the clouds. The second and third picture is of Saturn.

And does anyone know the default settings for the picture control settings? I might have tweaked them in a weird way.

Animaitor · Post by **Animaitor** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:26 am

I read your Beginner's Guide many times Fudoh but I must have forgot about the firmware bug. If I don't remember wrong, I read on this thread the way to take the XRBG-3 back to its original firmware so I can apply the 2.07 version but can't remember how... I'll take a look tonight.

For the Neo Geo, I hope Fudoh is right and with just changing the settings of the AFC I get the XRBG-3 to show proper image on the Neo Geo. If not, I guess I'll have to mod the cable as Konsolkongen explained. I wonder if there's another way to remove that composite signal and just have pure sync output making some adjustments on the Neo Geo itself (motherboard or video output area)...

I just found a web with such explanation but I think he's dealing with a different problem:

http://www.mmmonkey.co.uk/console/neo/video.htm

Anyways, thanks to both!!

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:56 am

Checked out the guide (wow I didn't know one existed, cool - got something for the XRGB-2 non-plus?), but here's my predictable idiot question:

XRGB-2 versus XRGB-3 on modern VGA / DVI monitors for:

X68000
Arcade PCBs (via supergun)

I have a 1600x1200 LCD monitor that I think I'll be using for tate for my couple vertical PCBs; it'll be ugly but I'm not going to knock over any TVs just yet, not even for OutZone (besides, it's only S-Video).

rolins · Post by **rolins** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:33 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:Checked out the guide (wow I didn't know one existed, cool - got something for the XRGB-2 non-plus?), but here's my predictable idiot question:

XRGB-2 versus XRGB-3 on modern VGA / DVI monitors for:

X68000
Arcade PCBs (via supergun)

I have a 1600x1200 LCD monitor that I think I'll be using for tate for my couple vertical PCBs; it'll be ugly but I'm not going to knock over any TVs just yet, not even for OutZone (besides, it's only S-Video).

For low-res games like X68000 and Arcade pcbs stick to the XRGB-2. For newer games that display in high-res go for the XRGB-3.

LCD monitor + XRGB-2 will produce a great picture, especially if your monitor is fairly recent. I have my XRGB-2 connected to my Samsung SyncMaster 953BW 19" widescreen, it also has a rotatable stand for vertical games - so easy a caveman could do it.

I'm glad I went down this route, I've consolidated all my console/arcade/PC internet to one monitor and I don't have to break my back trying to rotate a behemoth RGB montiors. A crt VGA has better picture quality but only slightly, a LCD is just far more convenient.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:36 am

Yeah, I have the tate-able SyncMaster 204b. The only downside (apart from some apparent inability to take DV-i properly) of it is that when in portrait mode (tate) there's some color shift depending where you sit in relation to it; it's fairly evident. I've already seen it in action on OutZone in MAME so I'm guessing the actual PCB's image can't be much better / worse. On the other hand, I do have some old monitors lying about...

That reminds me. I need a cable to connect the XRGB-2 to VGA, since what I got was just the power cord + bare unit. What works here?

Konsolkongen · Post by **Konsolkongen** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:14 pm

Animaitor wrote: For the Neo Geo, I hope Fudoh is right and with just changing the settings of the AFC I get the XRBG-3 to show proper image on the Neo Geo. If not, I guess I'll have to mod the cable as Konsolkongen explained. I wonder if there's another way to remove that composite signal and just have pure sync output making some adjustments on the Neo Geo itself (motherboard or video output area)...

I found this pinout of the NEO GEO RGB AV-out socket:

http://www.gamesx.com/avpinouts/neoav.htm

As you can see it does have a 5V pin so there is no need to open your console to install the chip.

My guess is that its probably using pin 3 [comp vid) as Sync right now. You should change that to pin 7 (easiest in the end that plugs into the console) and see if that helps. There might me a capasitor, resistor or something else sitting between the sync signal and pin 20 in the RGB-end of the cable. If it doesn't work after switching from pin 3 to 7 you might need to remove this, but keep it in a safe place you might need it again.

If that didn't help at all use this link to install the LM1881 chip in the cable:
http://www.gamesx.com/misctech/lm1881.htm

There should be just enough room for it all to fit. Use 5V from the cable to power the chip, no need to reconnect the wire to the RGB socket afterwards, the XRGB-3 doesn't need any voltage

It shouldn't matter if you input composite sync or ordinary sync (pin 7) into the chip, the result will be the same.
There was a capasitor on pin 20 in my MD RGB cable that had to be removed for the chip to work properly.

Hope this helps.

Actually the LM1881 chip works so good that i was thinking about installing one on the inside of the XRGB-3 so all RGB sync signals would pass trough one of those. It would probably solve any sync related problems on any console ever used

Also i wrote a guide on how to modify your XRGB-3 for using an EU Scart socket directly. It should be in this topic a few pages back, in case you want to use it

Khan · Post by **Khan** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:55 pm

Fudoh wrote:If you don't mind the extra money, you could try a simple VGA to HDMI converter (around $40 on ebay). There's no such thing as a bad phase or pixelclock on HDMI and can't think of any problems involved. I've tried the same with the Gefen VGA to HDMI converter I have and it works fine, but it's hard to say the same about other displays without trying them...

Slighty off topic, but I bought a dvi-hdmi lead to plug my PC into my LCD TV and the image looks ok but the refresh rate is stuck at 60hz.....with vga I get a refresh rate of 85hz anyone know what the problem is? I thought hdmi was supposed to be the ultimate in image technology lol

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:58 pm

On VGA you're using higher refresh rates as they are better for your eyes. On digital displays, you don't have to. 60Hz is the standard refresh on digital connections. Be happy about it. Finally you can use VSync in MAME and enjoy tearing-free arcade games.

Khan · Post by **Khan** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:20 pm

so your saying that hdmi is actually better if I want to play my mame games?

Animaitor · Post by **Animaitor** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:04 am

Fudoh wrote:Hi there, you read my beginner's guide ? If not, do so: http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

The first problem is a firmware bug. If you go back to 2.07 on B0 (!) you'll be able to go to 255 at the scanlines setting in B1 again. I've mailed Micomsoft about it (in japanese) and it'll hopefully get fixed

The second is a setting issue. You have to adjust the AFC setting from 0 or 1 to 4 or 5. I've had the same on my PC Engine.

Have fun!

Could change the firmware back to 2.07 and now I can set the scanlines to 255. But tried to adjust the AFC and the image just went black all the time so most probably I need that LM1881 on my Neo Geo RGB cable as Konsolkongen suggested. I don't even have time to play, let alone hack the cables... dammit!! I have very little knowledge about circuits, boards and things like that so I'm a little lost with what Konsolkongen explained. I'll go through all the info written by Konsolkongen and Fudoh and will see if I can deal with it (or maybe Markus might be another solution). Thanks again to all of you!

zap · Post by **zap** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:05 am

zap wrote:does anyone know the default settings for the picture control settings?

Anyone?

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:51 am

Could change the firmware back to 2.07 and now I can set the scanlines to 255. But tried to adjust the AFC and the image just went black all the time so most probably

it's supposed to go black at higher AFC levels. At which level does it turn black on you ? What's the serial of your AES ? If you AES does have sync output on Pin 7 try this before (you can easily check the cable to see which pins are used). The NG is such an easy to use system, that it's highly unlikely that you need an LM1881. Micomsoft tests the XRGB units with NG machines after all...

@zap: what kind of SFC RGB cable are you using ? Those black outlines/shadows are common on 3rd party RGB cables (on the SFC). The original japanese Nintendo SFC is very good. The RGB signal is softer than on other systems overall, but you can minimize the shadows by using a better cable.

You can reset the XRGB3. It should reset the picture settings as well.

Animaitor · Post by **Animaitor** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:22 am

The serial# of my NG AES is 18XXX, can't remember exactly (I'm at work now), so one of the first to come out. If the NG has sync output on Pin 7 what should I do? Can I do something to the RGB cable or the console? The image goes totally black even at AFC 4 and never comes out of it.

zap, to reset your XRBG first turn it off and later press and hold the "MENU" and "OK" buttons of your machine while pressing the "POWER" button.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:29 am

Can I do something to the RGB cable or the console?

you can open up the cable and see if Pin 7 is used after all or the composite video pin is used instead.

zap · Post by **zap** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:15 am

Ok, thanks. I'll try that.
Pretty sure my RGB cable is 3rd party from Play-Asia.

Fudoh · Post by **Fudoh** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:08 pm

It looks like this. Not too hard to find and japanese Scart layout already out of the box: