genre defining games?

mr. newbie · Post by **mr. newbie** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:00 am

Hi i'm trying to start an arcade with a friend by the end of the year.

i'm pretty knowledgeable when it comes to fighting games, but i'm very lost when it comes to shumps. fighting games are easier because only a few are played (as far as tournaments go) at a time. shumps aren't bound by these restrictions so it's hard for me (an outsider) to figure out what the community likes and whats going to appeal to outsiders like me.

my original plan was to just figure this out myself by browsing the forum. But there's so much information, it seems silly. i know it's a broad question but it's a start.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:23 am

The annual "top 25 shmups of all time" vote that goes on here is a good place to start:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=20406

You can't really go wrong with any of these.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:25 am

I don't think genre defining counts for much, but in terms of pulling in money, you definitely want at least a few games people recognize. For oldschool, can't hurt to have one of the following: Space Invaders - Galaga - something like that. I'd go with Galaga.

R-Type is another.

You could also look at some of the lists of best shooters in the Forum's annual top shooters competition, although the top ten is going to throw out a lot of really suggestions that will likely give less return on investment (i.e. beloved by a few but unapproachable for many).

That said I would get a Psikyo game, Mars Matrix, and something from Toaplan. There are also some rather well-liked Neo Geo shooters like Pulstar that will fit in a MVS system along with some fighters.

kengou wrote:You can't really go wrong with any of these.

Good luck running Gradius V as an arcade game, whups

It's not even legal, prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam you will be

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:01 am

Space Invaders
Galaga
Xevious
R-Type
Raiden
Dodonpachi
Ikaruga

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:40 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:
kengou wrote:You can't really go wrong with any of these.
Good luck running Gradius V as an arcade game, whups

It's not even legal, prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam you will be

So sorry. Should have said "You can't really go wrong with any of these that are arcade games as signified by the big ARC next to their names which anyone could have figured out easily and knew exactly what I meant.

Also how is it not legal to install a PS2 running Gradius V in an arcade cab and charge money to play it (somehow)?

mr_m0nks · Post by **mr_m0nks** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:10 am

For the same reason it is not legal to buy a DVD, set up a projector in your garage and start charging people to come and watch.

Copyright, terms of use and all that shizzle

Ex-Cyber · Post by **Ex-Cyber** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:27 am

I think the specific reason is that "public performance" is one of the exclusive privileges of the copyright holder. DMCA and DRM regimes aside, copyright doesn't grant some kind of veto power over all uses of a work.

nash87 · Post by **nash87** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:58 pm

Where's this arcade going to be?

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:33 pm

CIT wrote:Space Invaders
Galaga
Xevious
R-Type
Raiden
Dodonpachi
Ikaruga

As genre defining some of these might be, I really think this would be a bad selection for a new arcade trying to get in some customers.

Maybe if the first four wre on one of he multiple arcade game machines that would be ok, but certainly don't get seperate cabs for them as it'll be a wate of space since it won't attract customers (no matter how nice Galaga and R-type are).

The other 3 should definitely get enough attention.

Other relatively cheap and spectacular games could be Psikyo stuff like Gunbird 2, or the accessible but popular Giga Wing.

I'd go out of my way to play these (if I didn't own them already that is).

And indeed, where is this arcade to be located?

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:36 pm

Ed Oscuro wrote:
kengou wrote:You can't really go wrong with any of these.
Good luck running Gradius V as an arcade game, whups

It's not even legal, prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam you will be

You could always charge for the use of the PS2 and offer some games of choice.
That way you wouldn't directly be charging for Gradius V or whatever...

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:52 pm

I think if you want to draw new customers in to your shooting cabs, who aren't necessarily already familiar with shooters, the 2 best games you can get are definitely :

1) Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu
2) Mushihimesama Futari (Black Label best for beginners!)

They both look great, play great, sound great and offer great accessibility, meaning that a true beginner will be able to enjoy the game really fast (Dodonpachi DFK is actually not that accessible but its graphics and general gameplay with easy survival usually greatly appeals to new comers). They are expensive, but in the long run it seems they will make you the most money.

I don't think you will make much money with old shooters, only the nostalgic will come and play them, and they will probably not play that often.

Wovou, who started a gamecenter last year in France, tried to include shooters and see how they did. At first there were Radiant Silvergun, Ikaruga, maybe Zero Gunner 2, Espgaluda and Mushihimesama. Only the 2 Cave shooters (Espgaluda and Mushimesama) were making some money, but not quite as much as some of the other games in the gamecenter (fighting games, rythm games, racing games and gun games in dedicated cabs were making the most). Then recently he bought Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu and it is working way better than the 2 Caves that were in before. However, it is still not making as much as other games.

Wovou is getting between 10 and 30 euros per day with DoDonPachi DaiFukkatsu, whereas something like Silent Hill in a dedicated cab makes almost 100 (credit is 0.50€ for DFK, 1€ for Silent Hill).

Of course the success of a shooter is going to depend on what cab you put it in and perhaps where your gamecenter is located, but I think you should be very careful with the shooter choice, because some will end up not being popular at all, some will do ok, some will do good, even if all the games can seem pretty similar.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:11 pm

out of curiousity how much is a credit on the silent hill cab vs a credit on DDP DFK?

im assuming silent hill is way more.....

unless you have a hardcore shmup/cave scene it would be pretty hard to pull much funds with shmups in an arcade......

people dont like to lose...and when confronted with bullet hell, you are gonna lose for a while till you get the hang of it

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:20 pm

sorry I got some facts wrong I edited them in my previous post, DFK is now making 10 to 30€ per day, Silent Hill a little under 100. Silent Hill's credit is 1€, DDP DFK's credit is 0.50€.

I think DFK isn't harsh on the beginner in bomb mode, neither is Futari in Original, which is one of the reasons why they're much better than other shooters to have in a Western arcade.

The scene is NOT hardcore at all shmup-wise where the gamecenter is (Toulouse). Basically none of the guys from the French forum are located there except for the gamecenter owner. But DFK does work and it does pull some money. It just takes a few months to pay back the price it had cost (it had cost 930€, will pay itself back in about 4 months total at the current pace).

The gamecenter itself is working really well, Wovou can easily pay for all the fees, electricity and associated expenses with the income, as well as buy a new game or two every month. The income is also increasing every month. He plans to pay himself a real salary later, for now he just uses the additional money to buy games and food.

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:11 pm

PROMETHEUS wrote:I think if you want to draw new customers in to your shooting cabs, who aren't necessarily already familiar with shooters, the 2 best games you can get are definitely :

1) Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu
2) Mushihimesama Futari (Black Label best for beginners!)

I'd be interested as to how Death Smiles compares to those two in terms of newcomers.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:17 pm

deathsmiles and dodonpachi DFK were the main draws when i had some games out on operating earlier this year, they were extremely popular actually!

mr. newbie · Post by **mr. newbie** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:59 am

-location- las vegas specifically 20 feet from the university of las vegas (well the building we want is).

-thanks for all the suggestions. we're doing a lancenter/arcade deal. i figure they compliment each other well enough to be in the same location.

i doubt there's a big shump scene here, but if there are a few people, i'd like to appeal to them. speaking of that, how do you guys feel about a weekly or bi-weekly score competition? would that keep you playing a shump you didn't particularly care for (since i can't provide a shump that pleases everyone)?

Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu - i youtubed a vid of this: wow. from the looks of it, even people that don't like shumps can appreciate the wtf number of bullets onscreen.

Mushihime-sama Futari black label- same as above. wikipedia says only 150 were made. if this a pita to find? does it have to be the black label?

deathsmiles-3 bullet hells seems overkill.

giga wing-it's cheap! and i've actually beaten this one so i'm biased.

galaga-seems...lame. i'd like to know how much money this makes other arcades. i'd rather use the space for something more modern.

jonny5 wrote:
people dont like to lose...and when confronted with bullet hell, you are gonna lose for a while till you get the hang of it

what if we have a section for all the games with videos showing common sticking points? just vids showing how make your $.50 last longer rather than the common how to get a million points.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:41 am

you should definetly choose deathsmiles over MFBL (atleast initially).

deathsmiles appeals to a much larger crowd and it will rake in a much larger take.
MFBL is the better game tho.

like i said i had a bunch of games on operating at a japan-expo earlier this year and interest around DDP DFK and deathsmiles was huge.
i also had MFBL, MMP, espgaluda2 and a couple of others on display at the same time and there wasent nearly as much buzz around those even tho they too did fairly well.

older games like galaga and space invaders might have alot of charm and atmosphere but few people actually like to play these games, dont get these games hoping to make money.
another advice is to get games that arent easily available for consoles, gigawing might be fairly cheap but put it next to a new flashy cave shmup and you wont make much money from it.

if you want a cheap game thats still extremely popular i advice ESPgaluda, this games appeal never seems to fade

good luck getting your arcade up mate, its alot of work but rewarding if you get it rolling!

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:20 am

Well if you're starting an arcade, Muchi Muchi Pork is taking steady money every day in our local arcade. Out of a long line of STGs we've put in the arcade, MMP is performing best.
Ketsui did well, but it scared off a lot of people too.

ROBOTRON · Post by **ROBOTRON** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:13 pm

Arcade Cabs?

Space Wars
Asteroids
Space Invaders
Galaxian/Galaga
Defender/Stargate
ROBOTRON 2084
Zaxxon
R-Type
TEMPEST

Now insert whatever came next because I dropped out of the arcade scene when I discovered female androids. Then:

DonPachi

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:20 pm

Oh yeah I forgot about DeathSmiles that would probably be a third STG that has potential to work really well with a relatively wide public in a Western arcade. It's hard to say how this or MuchiMuchiPork would compare to DFK or MFBL in an arcade. It'd be nice to know exactly how much money MMP is making per day in that casino arcade in London :p

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:30 pm

i want to work in wouvou's arcade

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:56 pm

He said he isn't planning to hire anyone yet. Maybe in the future when he is making more money he can just sit back home and hire someone to keep an eye on his arcade in his stead :p

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:32 pm

mr. newbie wrote:deathsmiles-3 bullet hells seems overkill.

Three Cave games is overkill, but you said you wanted modern games. That's basically all there is. Don't put in a DDP game if you want people coming back.

Strikers 1999/1945 III. I think you should include one airplane shooter. Some people will want to look at something normal and the bullet count will be less intimidating.

Armed Police Batrider - the Raizing pick. I think these boards are cheap, too.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:33 pm

The Silent Hill lightgun game is making more than three times as much as DFK?

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:47 pm

I'd say go for a Naomi and a new Cave game like Death Smiles or Futari. On the Naomi side, you have Psyvariar 2, Under Defeat and Ikaruga that could potentially draw people based on the "flash" factor and the newer Cave stuff is potentialy more accessible in terms of difficulty.

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:41 pm

Raiden Fighters 1, or Jet would be modern enough but also cheap. Any Strikers game really is a crowdpleaser. These games have mass appeal for cheap and shouldn't be a huge risk.

Deathsmiles would be my pick over any other game of the last 10 years because the difficulty is what you make it. The game can either be a pushover or an insane tapdodge fest depending on if you play for survival or score. The art style would attract a lot of attention from all types of players too.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:45 pm

Ed Oscuro wrote:The Silent Hill lightgun game is making more than three times as much as DFK?

Yep, shooters won't work half as well as other games apparently. The latest, most appealing to beginners Cave games sort of work though. I can't imagine something like an old raizing or Striker making any money...

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:40 pm

Hmmm...

Galaga
Xevious
Raiden II
DoDonPachi or DonPachi (whichever is more in your budget)
R-Type
Darius Gaiden (Darius III in US?)
Battle Garegga

Those would be my picks. If you had the funds, grabbing a Naomi set up for shmups like Ikaruga, Under Defeat or Border Down would be snazzy.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:05 am

PROMETHEUS wrote:I can't imagine something like an old raizing or Striker making any money...

You can actually find Strikers in odd places. Maybe pedophilia isn't as big in the States.

Ikaruga - you can get your fill of this in three different console releases, for as low as $10. Radiant Silvergun if you must.

Taylor · Post by **Taylor** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:47 am

I was thinking about something similar, but with all major fighting franchises getting home releases it seemed a bit too risky in the end. However, shooter wise it was going to be pretty simple, at least to start with.

Death Smiles: Mega Black Label is amazing graphically, has some nice characters, stage select, difficulty select, pretty easy overall difficulty. People who aren't a fan of shooters will still feel like giving this a go and enjoy themselves, but a really good player can still pick it up and draw a crowd.
DoDonPachi: Daifukkatsu 1.5 is even more impressive to watch be played, it might be harder to get people to sit down, but one run in Bomb and Strong and they'll be coming back for more (you auto-bomb, so easy). A newbie who picks Power will be sore though, just put a note on the machine.

Unfortunately these are the most expensive Cave efforts, I had a slight advantage on the second one as I got it cheap in Japan already.

I think if you don't have a shooter following then putting in something like Batrider, DoDonPachi or Ketsui is just going to scare people. People like to think they're going to get their moneys worth. If the more newbie friendly games attract a community of gamers in your arcade then you can branch out with the hardcore classics.

I was also planning to put some custom buttons on Death Smiles, one that taps A for you when held, same for B, and one that presses A+B. I noticed a few arcades in Japan do this, and it just makes you look knowledgeable about the games (and avoids RSI). As a contrast in the "local" (relatively speaking, it's 2 hours away) arcade the guy running the place doesn't seem to realise Mushi needs a C button and I watched the technician widen the Mushi screen until you couldn't see 1 life icon and 1 bomb icon. It's still like that.

DEL wrote:Well if you're starting an arcade, Muchi Muchi Pork is taking steady money every day in our local arcade. Out of a long line of STGs we've put in the arcade, MMP is performing best.
Ketsui did well, but it scared off a lot of people too.

True, but it’s also quite new and the only one with a seat and a decent monitor.

shmups.system11.org

genre defining games?

genre defining games?

Re: genre defining games?

Re: genre defining games?

Re: genre defining games?