avoiding "difficulty mode abuse"

[ughman123]

Ha ha, since when have people not wanted to be challenged, I'm really horrible at shmups and I try to make the game as hard as possible so it will be really easy on normal.

[Xonatron]

...Let's take R-type since it's been re-released. I can breeze through the whole game with no issues. But, there are times when stupid deaths occur or i do wind up losing all my lives. When i have to restart the first 3 levels, I do not get discouraged, but I almost feel like, fuck, i have to do the first three levels again before the game gets more intense? Again, it's not an overwhelming sensation but its still there, lurking and toying with my will power.

On-the-other-hand. What r-type does well is, if i come back to it tomorrow. I'm ok with playing level 1. I think that is a good balance to have. It may discourage the player on Monday, but on Thursday they want round two.

Perhaps the perfect solution to this is... SURVIVAL MODE. A game mode that starts off easy and quickly climbs to impossible. A one stage, one life (or few lives), "see how far you can get" challenge. So, for that sensation of boredom with the first few stages of the game, survival mode will be your friend. After boredom passes, you can go back to playing the regular game.

Regardless, we are happy to announce we have a survival game mode in Duality: ZF. Fully 4x multiplayer compatible, fully DUAL PLAY compatible, and even both of them combined. It may be the favorite game mode.

[emphatic]

...Let's take R-type since it's been re-released. I can breeze through the whole game with no issues. But, there are times when stupid deaths occur or i do wind up losing all my lives. When i have to restart the first 3 levels, I do not get discouraged, but I almost feel like, fuck, i have to do the first three levels again before the game gets more intense? Again, it's not an overwhelming sensation but its still there, lurking and toying with my will power.

On-the-other-hand. What r-type does well is, if i come back to it tomorrow. I'm ok with playing level 1. I think that is a good balance to have. It may discourage the player on Monday, but on Thursday they want round two.

Perhaps the perfect solution to this is... SURVIVAL MODE. A game mode that starts off easy and quickly climbs to impossible. A one stage, one life (or few lives), "see how far you can get" challenge. So, for that sensation of boredom with the first few stages of the game, survival mode will be your friend. After boredom passes, you can go back to playing the regular game.

Regardless, we are happy to announce we have a survival game mode in Duality: ZF. Fully 4x multiplayer compatible, fully DUAL PLAY compatible, and even both of them combined. It may be the favorite game mode.

Sounds like the last stage of Silk Worm. Perhaps you could add "Playtime" to the scoreboards for that mode.

[Xonatron]

...Let's take R-type since it's been re-released. I can breeze through the whole game with no issues. But, there are times when stupid deaths occur or i do wind up losing all my lives. When i have to restart the first 3 levels, I do not get discouraged, but I almost feel like, fuck, i have to do the first three levels again before the game gets more intense? Again, it's not an overwhelming sensation but its still there, lurking and toying with my will power.

On-the-other-hand. What r-type does well is, if i come back to it tomorrow. I'm ok with playing level 1. I think that is a good balance to have. It may discourage the player on Monday, but on Thursday they want round two.

Perhaps the perfect solution to this is... SURVIVAL MODE. A game mode that starts off easy and quickly climbs to impossible. A one stage, one life (or few lives), "see how far you can get" challenge. So, for that sensation of boredom with the first few stages of the game, survival mode will be your friend. After boredom passes, you can go back to playing the regular game.

Regardless, we are happy to announce we have a survival game mode in Duality: ZF. Fully 4x multiplayer compatible, fully DUAL PLAY compatible, and even both of them combined. It may be the favorite game mode.

Sounds like the last stage of Silk Worm. Perhaps you could add "Playtime" to the scoreboards for that mode.

We thought about adding playtime to the scoreboard, or as the score, but removed it because the general feel of the game in all its game modes (6 game modes in total) are kept consistent if we just measure score. The play time stat would be interesting to see, though... but we have had to compromise A LOT of stats in our scoreboards to keep them clean and meaningful. In playtest we found that measuring the score, instead of the play time (as we had to choose one or the other to appear in the scoreboards), made the first part of the game more fun, as opposed to boring "i can get through this no problem no matter how well i do" feeling.

[emphatic]

Yes, clutter free is better. Silk Worm does only have one play mode, so it fits better there. Ah, gonna have to plug my PCB into the cab and give it a go later tonight.

[captpain]

Yes, clutter free is better. Silk Worm does only have one play mode, so it fits better there. Ah, gonna have to plug my PCB into the cab and give it a go later tonight.

Haha, that game used to be in the local airport's arcade when I was 7 or 8 years old. Hmm, maybe I'll see what it's like in MAME.

[gs68]

No, no, no. Removing infinite continues will just drive gamers away:

Yeah man this isnt the arcade, why do developers keep putting credit systems in their crap. You pay full price to not even get to enjoy the game.But Im sure AR will have something

Instead, I propose the suck-o-meter:



Let people credit-spam the game, but when they see how many continues they've used, it'll motivate them to suck less next time.

Or not. I give up. Scoring and 1CC'ing are dead sports.

[corbie]

I like the "Suck-O-Meter" idea. If I looked up and saw 43 continues, that would shame me into trying harder next time.

[Xonatron]

In our game, we want each continue to start up with less and less powerups, so eventually the continue will be futile. but still have the continue always as an option if you kickass enough to make it through. by the 3rd stage you can probably start off with no power up and fight on (average player in normal difficulty mode), but by the 4th you are going to want to have something there. i think in the most extreme case someone can probably start off in stage 8 with nothing and beat it, but you have to be extrememly good, and try it 20 times. i figure if someone is this good, and that persistent, why cut off the option to continue?

we could still show the number of continues used, i suppose!

when you think about all the various skill levels (i.e., people getting to 2nd stage, 3rd stage, etc., 8th stage on the first credit) i think our continue idea works well for each of them. wherever they get to, they get to try again, a tiny bit harder, and repeat.

with one beta tester, he could get to stage 5 and then cotinued about 4 or 5 times before it because futile (although i was still able to beat it, but i'm an expert player.) this was normal difficulty mode.

[emphatic]

How about after 5 continues, a pop up message says "Hey, this is getting really laughable, turn on full power ups and invisibility instead?"

[nimitz]

and please, don't give infinite continues in harder difficulty modes, they are meant to be a challenge.

Or you could have different "endings". Like Raiden Fighters Jet, if someone uses many continues early in the game, they will not get to play the "real battle" part.

Raiden Fighters Jet even has alternate paths (completely different levels, backgrounds, music, bosses) depending on how well you fare.

[worstplayer]

Also play sounds of crowd booing whenever player continues.

[kengou]

Also play sounds of crowd booing whenever player continues.

I was just thinking of something like this. This, in combination with resetting the score every time you continue (and maybe not letting you save any scores if you continue even once), and perhaps giving one more continue per hour of play, should be sufficient for the mainstream gamers to feel like they're getting their money's worth but also get a good challenge.

[Xonatron]

and please, don't give infinite continues in harder difficulty modes, they are meant to be a challenge.

I don't know if you understand (how our continues work).

We do not have infinite continues as in the sense of most arcade games that let you "walk through" the game with infinite continues. We do not even do it like R-Type, where you can continue forever with the same likelihood of success. In Duality: ZF, each continue is lesser (less powerups) than the one before it. Eventually they become futile. Trying to continue in the final stages with no powerups is almost impossible. It may be impossible. If it is possible, you would need such skill that I would want to allow it to happen, as you can already beat the game regardless.

But our thinking was, why cut the player off? It's a judgement call each time. Maybe he/she wants to continue that extra time? Maybe it's a really good player who screwed up, not paying attention, but still wants to see if he/she can make it through?

So I think our continues are two things in one: 1) limited in the sense that they become futile, and 2) unlimited in the sense that we are not making a judgement call and cutting the player off.

Plus, I think it's cool that the continue itself, even the first one, is immediatey a reduced success chance from the first time around (just like any shooter wher you lose powerups). And then that same idea happens over and over again, less and less powerups.

If you are curious about the math, you continue with the powerups that you would have had, had you had an extra life. Everytime you die you lose a percentage of your powerups (the amount at which we are tweaking right now). You continue with that reduced percentage. By changing that percentage we can cut down the utility of our continues (cut down the amount that are useful) by however much we want. Right now it's about 4 that are useful.

We want infinite continues, also, because our game is going to be super hard in the HARD, EXPERT, and beyond, difficulty modes. And even being able to continue in a stage you cannot beat is good for practice. If someone wants to do it, I want to let them.

[nimitz]

Maybe it's a really good player who screwed up

Usually games have two options to let good players "practice"

Arcade games obviously have paid continues, so the good player who want to practice a certain boss for example will credit feed on the boss (even without shooting) to learn the patterns. This option is less than optimal for practice.

In a console environment, the best way developers have is a dedicated practice mode, which allows you to practice these patterns as much as you want without having to play through or credit feeding. A practice mode in which you unlock levels by 1ccing them is the best option.



I am not sure what do you mean by less "powerups". Do you means the maximum power potential of the ship is hindered? or that the free powerups that would drop when continuing are lessened?

In any case, making the game harder by influencing the ship power seems like a bad way around, either the ship is so underpowered that you get swarmed (and since swarming isnt part of the actual gemplay, you wont learn anything there) or If you don't get swarmed I don't see how this would make the game harder (since you are dodging more or less the same patterns after all).

[Xonatron]

I am not sure what do you mean by less "powerups". Do you means the maximum power potential of the ship is hindered? or that the free powerups that would drop when continuing are lessened?

We do neither.

There is only one weapon in our game, that incrementally increases in power, with 32 powerup icons being max power, and you start with 1.

When you die or continue, you start with a reduced percentage of the powerups you have collected. Right now we are testing 30% reduction.

To answer your question, we do not limit the potential of your ship, or reduced the powerup icons available. We just reduced the powerups in your fighter as calculated from the amount your previous fighter had.

(For what it is worth, 50% reduction is far too much. Every time you died or continued your new fighter would have half of the last one. 30% reduction is approximately 2 deaths to reduce your power by half.)

In any case, making the game harder by influencing the ship power seems like a bad way around, either the ship is so underpowered that you get swarmed (and since swarming isnt part of the actual gemplay, you wont learn anything there) or If you don't get swarmed I don't see how this would make the game harder (since you are dodging more or less the same patterns after all).

I agree!

[Twiddle]

I suggest having only five power levels, letting the player get to max relatively early (having this be done in a single stage easily is a must), and only subtracting one or two power levels after a death. Having to amass powerups is very annoying, especially if there's a scoring system involved.

[Xonatron]

I suggest having only five power levels, letting the player get to max relatively early (having this be done in a single stage easily is a must), and only subtracting one or two power levels after a death. Having to amass powerups is very annoying, especially if there's a scoring system involved.

Wow, we destroyed your idea of only 5 power levels. I believe you will find what we have created works regardless of the insanity of powerups that can be accumulated. I could be wrong. It might not work. Certain variables can only be learned of through release, not playtesting. And, if I am wrong, there is always the sequel.

[gs68]

I like the "Suck-O-Meter" idea. If I looked up and saw 43 continues, that would shame me into trying harder next time.

Exactly!

Also, implement TGM-style torikan--stop the game after a certain stage if you've used too many continues, and tell the player to GO BETTER NEXT TIME

[Xonatron]

You guys are cruel, lol

[kengou]

You guys are cruel, lol

No, the gamers you're trying to cater to are soft and weak. They need to understand the meaning of "difficulty" in a game.

Here's another idea that I've wanted to see in a game for some time: when you use a continue, you restart the stage, with the points, bombs and number of lives you had going into it. It's like a "do-over" for the stage you're stuck on. If you are stuck on one particular stage, you won't progress past that stage until you beat it without continuing. If you enter stage 2 with 1 life left, for instance, and you use a continue on stage 2, you'll return to the beginning with 1 life and have to keep trying. At this point, many people would restart the game and attempt to beat level 1 with more lives so they have a better chance of getting through level 2. That's EXACTLY the kind of play you want to encourage!

[Xonatron]

It's amazing the ideas on this board, and how often they match ideas I and my team have had. It means we must know *something* about shmups!

You guys are cruel, lol

No, the gamers you're trying to cater to are soft and weak. They need to understand the meaning of "difficulty" in a game.

For one, we want to teach "difficulty" again.

Here's another idea that I've wanted to see in a game for some time: when you use a continue, you restart the stage, with the points, bombs and number of lives you had going into it. It's like a "do-over" for the stage you're stuck on. If you are stuck on one particular stage, you won't progress past that stage until you beat it without continuing. If you enter stage 2 with 1 life left, for instance, and you use a continue on stage 2, you'll return to the beginning with 1 life and have to keep trying...

For two, this "restart the stage as you entered" idea we just discussed yesterday (but it was not the first time). We rejected it, as it was time travel. We wanted no form of time travel in our game. Fundamentally we wanted no form of "no consequence" in our game. Save points, especially in emulator type saves points, are an extreme example of this. We want your mistakes to matter.

...At this point, many people would restart the game and attempt to beat level 1 with more lives so they have a better chance of getting through level 2. That's EXACTLY the kind of play you want to encourage!

I think our game accomplishes this type of gameplay. In our game, you continue with 3 lives regardless of how many you had coming into the stage, but you continue with less powerups, so you are at a disadvantage most often. Sometimes you are at an advantage if you had entered the stage with only 1 life, as 3 lives starting at less power is better than 1 life withi more power. But for the most part you get stuck on a stage and keep trying with diminishing results when it's the stage you truly cannot get past, and with succeeding results if you have the skill to pass it. And, I forgot to mention, you do wish to restart the game and do it better to arrive at the stage you are stuck on, with better odds.

[Twiddle]

I suggest having only five power levels, letting the player get to max relatively early (having this be done in a single stage easily is a must), and only subtracting one or two power levels after a death. Having to amass powerups is very annoying, especially if there's a scoring system involved.

Wow, we destroyed your idea of only 5 power levels. I believe you will find what we have created works regardless of the insanity of powerups that can be accumulated. I could be wrong. It might not work. Certain variables can only be learned of through release, not playtesting. And, if I am wrong, there is always the sequel.

If you're going to have a power down system, the amount lost should always be proportional to the amount you'll give to the player shortly after (this includes during boss fights). Touhou is a good example of this, in regards to games with lots of powerups needed to reach the next power level (it hands them out almost like candy, and when you've maxed it out it gives you scoring items or other goodies instead, which serves as a better incentive to not die than a significant powerdown does.) Failure to do so will result in Gradius Syndrome, in which the players find themselves too underpowered to take on enemies given a certain amount of deaths, and one-life play is not something you want to push on new players.

[orange]

at the same time though one thing that people tend to overlook is the idea that your shields are your "lives" in gradius

[dmauro]

Yeah, I was playing Gradius V yesterday and was reminded at how silly it seems that you even have more than one life. I don't think I've ever successfully died in the 3rd stage even, and made a come back to full power.

Powering down on death is a weird idea. I'm not sure why it's the standard. I prefer the punishment to be kept to your scoring (ending a chain or what have you). Some games just punish so hard that you'll never get back into your groove.

One of the things I love about Under Defeat is that when I die, and I'm tempted to restart I think "well, at least I get a decent 5,000 point bonus and I've increased my scoring potential." It seems silly to reward a player for dying, but when you consider reset-syndrome it starts to make sense.

[emphatic]

But the big powering down discussed here would only apply to credit feeding. How much would a regular death set the player back?

How about this idea that I just had:
If you credit feed your way to the last boss, it's not going to die. Ever. This would be a great way for top players to practice on it, and a big F U to the crazy credit feeders.

[Xonatron]

If you're going to have a power down system, the amount lost should always be proportional to the amount you'll give to the player shortly after (this includes during boss fights). Touhou is a good example of this, in regards to games with lots of powerups needed to reach the next power level (it hands them out almost like candy, and when you've maxed it out it gives you scoring items or other goodies instead, which serves as a better incentive to not die than a significant powerdown does.) Failure to do so will result in Gradius Syndrome, in which the players find themselves too underpowered to take on enemies given a certain amount of deaths, and one-life play is not something you want to push on new players.

Good points. We want to avoid teh Gradius Syndrome, that we know all too well. With our 50% reduction in power, each life lost, we were approaching that. We have now fixed the issue. In fact, now we might not be deducting enough power. More playtesting will figure this out, and let us tweak the power reduction properly.

The point is, we always want the player to have a fighting chance, but, upon continuing, we wan the odds to slowly drop more and more so infinite continues (at the beginning of the stage, that is) cannot take place forever, if you are truly stuck.

[Xonatron]

But the big powering down discussed here would only apply to credit feeding. How much would a regular death set the player back?

How about this idea that I just had:
If you credit feed your way to the last boss, it's not going to die. Ever. This would be a great way for top players to practice on it, and a big F U to the crazy credit feeders.

The power down is both for player death and continue. The rule in our game is you continue with the amount of power that you would have had had you had an extra life. (Follow that? lol)

Since you begin at the beginning of the stage, through continuing, you would still collect some powerups by the time you reach the last boss. It would be quite hard, but still possible (it may even time out), starting the last stage with no intial powerups. Any player can test this out by getting to the last stage, dying and continuing, over and over, until the continues start you with nothing.

[Xonatron]

Powering down on death is a weird idea. I'm not sure why it's the standard. I prefer the punishment to be kept to your scoring (ending a chain or what have you). Some games just punish so hard that you'll never get back into your groove.

I questioned the same thing. Why is it standard? If you died, it's because it was too hard, and now let's make it EVEN HARDER!

None-the-less, it is possible with only a small reduction in power, for a skilled player to continue on. We have achieved this. It does kick th game into a sort of 'overdrive' mode, when you die and still try to keep going handicapped.

As I noted before, we will have to playtest some more to tweak the actual amount we reduce the fighter's power on death.

[dmauro]

How about this idea that I just had:
If you credit feed your way to the last boss, it's not going to die. Ever. This would be a great way for top players to practice on it, and a big F U to the crazy credit feeders.

Ha, Brilliant!