Miyamoto: Games are too long

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benstylus
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Miyamoto: Games are too long

Post by benstylus »

This might come as something of a shock to the gaming world, but Shigeru Miyamoto – the man who created Mario, Donkey Kong and Zelda – really doesn't feel like playing games these days.

"There's not a lot I want to play now," he told me recently. "A lot of the games out there are just too long. Of course, there are games, such as 'Halo' or 'Grand Theft Auto,' that are big and expansive. But if you're not interested in spending that time with them, you're not going to play."

What he misses, he said, are games you can pick up and play – something the company hopes to accomplish with its next generation home console, currently code-named "Revolution".

Nintendo deliberately avoided giving too many details about the Revolution at the E3 conference this year, frustrating some fans who felt the company did not fight back against the PR onslaught of the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3.

Miyamoto didn't offer any firm details either, though he did offer a few more vague hints about how the system would be different.

"The Revolution will use cutting edge technology, but it's ultimately about how that technology is used," he said. "We asked ourselves 'why would a family need or want to have a gaming console?' The answer is what's driving development of the Revolution."

While Miyamoto insists the Revolution will have advanced graphics and features, he doesn't want that to be the focus of the machine.

Instead, he's trying to encourage developers to think outside of the genres that have become so well known in the industry. In other words, there's more to gaming than role playing, simulation, strategy and action.

"Rather than thinking we have a new console, let's make epic games, I want [developers] to make more unique products," he said.

That's the school of thought behind some of the upcoming games for the Nintendo DS. "Nintendogs," a Tamigachi-like canine simulator lets you experience the joy of raising a pup with none of the house-training. Whether U.S. audiences will embrace it is a mystery, but Japan has gone crazy for the game, buying more than 400,000 copies, according to Nintendo. "ElectroPlankton," meanwhile, blends music and art, letting owners mix their own tunes.

Less likely to make it to Western shores is "Touch Dic". (Really, that's the name.) This dictionary application for the DS is a bit different than standard electronic dictionaries, turning learning a new language into a game. For example, one person, using the DS' stylus, can draw Kanji characters onto their Picto-chat screen while others try to guess their meaning.

There have even been whispers of a PDA application for the DS in the works, though Nintendo declined to comment on that.

Of course, the Revolution and the DS will continue to primarily be game machines. (Nintendo's not straying that far from its roots.) And company president Satoru Iwata has indicated established franchises, such as "Super Smash Bros." and "Metroid" will be ready at or near launch.

How much support Nintendo will get from third-party publishers remains to be seen. Though they used a lot of smoke and mirrors, Sony and Microsoft both turned heads at E3. Nintendo's next-gen device was barely an afterthought for most developers.

If Miyamoto is concerned, though, he didn't show it. He said he wasn't overly impressed with what he saw from Sony (Research) and Microsoft (Research) at the show – particularly in their pre-show press conferences.

"Most of what you're seeing are not even the first projections of games," he said. "They're just shiny computer graphics. They're things anyone using a computer can do. ... It's how we're going to use the technology that separates us. What we want to do is different – and we're happy with the road we're taking. When you have a Revolution, you're not going to have the same experience as you would with the other home consoles."
source

Discuss.

Here are my thoughts on the subject (and I hope you brought your reading glasses).

I agree with Miyamoto. Today's games are too long.

In most games of any length (15 hours or so) there is a great deal of fun to be had, but chances are there are also parts of the game that seem to drag on - whether it's forced leveling, fetch quests, or wandering around a map to get to the next place or whatever.

Developers are under the illusion that added gameplay equates to added value, and it's just not true.

Because when I buy a video game, I've paid for fun. Every part where I'm not having fun is just wasting my time and thus subtracting value from the game. Some games' fun parts are so much fun that it makes up for these dull parts, but others really try my patience

By removing these fluff parts that nobody likes (sailing in Wind Waker, for example) and focusing on the core that people do, you'll shorten the game, but I believe you'll add more value as well by not forcing people to eat dirt to get to their steak.

But when games focus on the core, it also means the developers didn't have to waste their time and resources adding the fluff, so they could release it at a lower price point. Take Gradius V for example. As is typical of a good Treasure game, there's almost nothing extraneous to detract from the game.

Of course when done right, even waiting and doing nothing can be fun. For an example, look at how popular stealth action games are - sure there's lots of killing, but half the fun is waiting for the right moment to strike.

So why do developers keep adding the fluff?

Well, there's some merit to the argument that steak tastes that much better after a mouthful of dirt.

The point of my post isn't that games should be forced into being shorter - just that they should minimize the parts that nobody likes. Is there anyone who has beaten Wind Waker that still likes the sailing parts?

If a game wants to last for 100 hours, that's fine as long as it's 100 hours of fun. But if it's 50 hours of fun and 50 hours of mind-numbing boredom, there's something wrong with that formula.

I've played well over a thousand hours of NiGHTS into Dreams on the Saturn. It's not a particularly long game, but to me it has infinite replay value. Considering I bought it almost ten years ago (with the controller) for about $30, I'd say I've gotten (and still continue to get) my money's worth.

I think possibly the only genre to consistently get the formula right is the sports genre. Most sports games nowadays give you the option to play a game, play the playoffs, play a season, play a career or a franchise. People who just watched their team lose in real life and want to make them win can do so in a single game. People who start watching sports late in the season are free to simply skip ahead to the playoffs. People who buy the sports games on release day every year can play the season mode and bring their favorite team all the way through to victory. And people who play nothing but sports games might enjoy the career mode. People who like getting into the nitty gritty details of everything would probably enjoy the Franchise mode.

The point is, the games are customized for maximum enjoyment no matter who is playing them. And people may find that they move up the ladder - maybe switching from a playoff guy to a season guy. Of course if you don't like sports, you won't have fun but the same goes for any genre.

So this poses another interesting question. How do we customize other genres to fit the player?

Well, what's dull for one person may be an absolute delight for someone else. So why would you take it out of the game if someone enjoys it?

The answer? You don't take it out. You make it optional.

Every versus fighting game already does this. We'll pick on Street Fighter 2 today though. Let's say you can't stand playing as Zangief. He's big, he's hairy, and the bulge in his speedo makes you uncomfortable. Well, thanks to the miracle of technology, you have fully seven other characters to choose from! You could play the game for years, and not once have to play as Zangief.

While this may seem like a bit of a trite example, the same can hold true for other genres.

Racing games always give you the option of using automatic or manual transmission. The manual may be more immersive, but not everyone likes it - so it's optional.

Still too simple? Here's another example.

Take a look at Threads of Fate, an Action RPG for the Playstation. There are two playable characters in the game, Mint and Rue. Mint is a magician who gets to cast all sorts of spells. Rue can change his form into those of enemies he's defeated. Two completely different play styles in the same game. If you don't like one, play the other.

The point is that it's possible to make a game that caters to the needs of the individual player. I just think it needs to be spread to more genres.

Do I want all games to cater to everyone? Not in the least. There's no need to add massive over the top violence to Tetris - it doesn't fit the game. Likewise, block puzzles would probably be pretty unwelcome in Tekken.

I DO want the games that try to cater to everyone to try a little harder.
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Post by neorichieb1971 »

I like the formula of shmups, but without any continues. Where graphics styles and music are rewards for reaching that part of the game. I don't care about scores, just progression.

I like games like Rez, where action and progression are key.. not much thinking.

I like games like Ico, where action and progression and puzzle elements are key. I like the puzzle to be in my face and I have to solve it. I don't mind if the game is big as long as I am reaching new areas, new places and finding out new things about the world I am playing in.

Same for Prince of persia.

I like mario 64, same simple puzzles, searching and wandering and using new abilities.

Metal gear solid, Lost vikings, James pond 2, bubble bobble.. All have similar themes.. They rely on progression, learning the game, following the story on a linear path that you have to find a way through.

Resident evils are another that are good.



I don't like gimmick games that use special controllers much. I don't like my racing games like RPG's. I don't like RPG's. I don't like party games. I just like to be immersed into the gaming world all by myself. I don't want online and I don't want people screwing with my game. I don't like FPS games as a general rule as the 1st person perspective limits what you can do with any FPS game.

Games are not too long.. Its how you envisage the game. If you can envisage the game of Zelda, you think its a long game but you know you can do it in increments.



Games should use a level formula more often, games should be easier.

A game to me that is long is Devil may cry. Its a nice looking game but its so repetitive and progression takes years. GT3 was long and boorrrrrrinnngggggg. That is a long game! DMC is considered a short game, but I didnt enjoy playing it so it felt long.


I would prefer playing ico, POP, REZ.. something relaxing, but not over complicated and just balanced to make it feel pleasant.
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Post by Specineff »

He sounds like a hypocrite. How long does it take to finish Super Mario 3, or Super Mario World? Didn't SMW had even a battery save system? Sheesh.
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Post by roushimsx »

Halo was not a long game. It had a long development time, but as far as first person shooter length goes, it was average. Maybe he'd like to see FPS the length of Call of Duty more often, but I'd trade all the Call of Duties and Red Factions in the world for just one more game on par with the first Deus Ex.

I don't think length is a big issue so much as creativity. Hard keeping a game fresh for umpteen hours, and too many developers resort to ctrl+c/ctrl+v...gameplay gets stagnent and you're left feeling like you're not really doing much. Most console RPGs fall prey to it, as most of them rely on you level grinding and dealing with god knows how many random battles just to progress to the next town...

so um...yea. There's plenty of awesome long games (such Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate II) and there's plenty of awesome short games (such as Katamari Damacy and Sly Cooper). What there isn't, is plenty of awesome developers (such as Sucker Punch and Looking Glass)
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Post by Valgar »

Why does he always rip on western games? Has he ever played anything but his own titles?
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Post by TalkingOctopus »

I saw that ICO was mentioned... I loved ICO and wished it was actually LONGER...much LONGER! Length is being over emphasized while quality is what really counts. Too many games seem to pad their length with subpar gameplay. One example that comes to mind is a portion of Halo 1 single player -- the part with the endless hallways with the same baddies rushing you over and over. Another example is the Zelda: The Wind Waker. For me, the last third of the game was a frustrating scavenger hunt and the final dungeon was a real disappoint -- you had to fight all the old bosses again!
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Post by GaijinPunch »

I agree with him. 50+ hours for an RPG is too fucking long. The stories ALWAYS suck, so who cares? Give me a good battle system, good characters, some fun stuff to find, crappy story, make it under 30 hours, and I'm happy.
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Post by fpbrush »

GaijinPunch wrote:I agree with him. 50+ hours for an RPG is too fucking long. The stories ALWAYS suck, so who cares? Give me a good battle system, good characters, some fun stuff to find, crappy story, make it under 30 hours, and I'm happy.

yes! *applauds*
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Post by benstylus »

Specineff wrote:How long does it take to finish Super Mario 3
11 minutes.

That's only if you take the time to earn 99 lives though.
You're arguing for a universe with fewer waffles in it. I'm prepared to call that cowardice.
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Post by Specineff »

I was referring to a real person, not a superplay made with thousands of savestates and recorderd inputs. :P
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Post by neorichieb1971 »

If you are the developer short games at $50 a throw is actually quite feasible :lol:
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Marc
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Post by Marc »

To be honest, I kinda agree. I find that between work, and mine and my firlfriends kids', I have less time than I used to for playing.

I enjoyed both Zelda and Fable, but guess which one I actually saw the end of?

My brother's just lent me Baten Kaitos (if that's how you spell it), and while it's the first RPG in a long time that's caught my interest the thought of actually trying to play it through... I'd have to play that, and that only for six months.

The ideal would be shorter, cheaper games. Like that's gonna happen... :lol:
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Post by Capt. Takehiko »

Everyone here should think in a similar way because Shmups are short. Dominantly very short games once you learn them. They have a hopefully addictive method of play and multiple characters/guns/ships etc to choose from. With the good ones a lot of work goes into design of enemies and stages. Effort goes into music as well. This creates a quality short game, which is a good point to start. This can also apply to non-mainstream fighters, quality puzzle games and the like.

I can't stand popular titles, really I cannot. I hate gimmicks, licences (predominately western), sports, overly violent and budget games. And guess what - that's most of the market.

The quality RPG, emphasis on quality here, is a different affair. I like a good RPG. I like a good RPG a lot. I've played every Zelda game in existence and only began to lose fate after the novelty of a cel-shadded game soon wore off. Baten Kaitos is another good example, a Cube game known to about 10 maybe 11 people in the western world. A GCN RPG with many problems with slipping through the gaps of being sold at important outlets or lagging on release dates was never to be well known by principle this a sad thing. I'm not going to call it a "gem" like some cocky review who thinks he's cool because he knows about roms and regions. But it was unfortunate to be so left out.

Ico on the other hand was a widely released game (in China it was a launch title for the real PS2 - more recent then you think) and a well-made PS2 game with a very nice soundtrack and the cover art should be in a gallery. Sadly though it was not given a PAL release, did this sadden me? No, because I lost faith in my region and the decisions made about it long ago. And to be more specific my country as well.

I could go on with the great list of "Should've been PAL games these RPGs were so good" because its a tired list who just want to have a rest and not be humiliated any more. So that can move to the side and as a summary I would like to say in my top 10 games there would be 2 or 3 with a play time of 1 hour +. This is how I draw relevance with the previous paragraphs that the best games are short and sweet.

My first pseudo-rant of 416 words.
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Post by neorichieb1971 »

The best version of Ico came out on PAL. It was a limited edition or some sort.
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Post by Capt. Takehiko »

:oops: Whoops, but the Aussies got jack. Sorry, should've checked that.
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Post by Andi »

GaijinPunch wrote:I agree with him. 50+ hours for an RPG is too fucking long. The stories ALWAYS suck, so who cares? Give me a good battle system, good characters, some fun stuff to find, crappy story, make it under 30 hours, and I'm happy.
The other option is to have a game that is 200 hours long and then just play it until you get bored and quit.

Why have more when you can have less. I'd rather quit because I'm tired of playing, rather than because there is nothing left for me to do.
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Post by GaijinPunch »

Why have more when you can have less. I'd rather quit because I'm tired of playing, rather than because there is nothing left for me to do.
Do you reguarly walk out of movies before they're over? You can always replay a game if you wish.
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Post by E. Randy Dupre »

This, it should be remembered, is the man who's handed over the reigns of one of Nintendo's biggest franchises to a guy who is now claiming that the forthcoming episode of the series will be over 70 hours long.

Is Miyamoto even aware of the games that the company he works for releases?

Mentioning GTA as a game that's too long, then saying that he wants to see more "pick up and play" titles = daftness to the power of silly. GTA's one of the best examples of a game that combines both styles of play - you can play it for hour upon hour if you want to, or alternatively you can fire it up for five or ten minutes for a quick razz. I suspect that he's not actually played it.
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Post by jp »

"No, because I lost faith in my region and the decisions made about it long ago."


Kind of ironic given the Saturn/Dreamcast library over there. Then again, as far as the Satty goes you just wind up paying stupid amounts of money for mediocre games that go for cheap on the US PS1/PC (Disworld 1+2, Swagman, Riven, and Jewels of the Oracle, I'm looking at you!)

But you guys did get Parodius, Deep Fear, and Darius II. And for that, I am jealous.


I digress!!!



I'm not sure what I think of Nintendo these days. I love the DS to death and do feel it is one of the most FUN machines I've ever encountered, but I think Miyamoto is getting full of himself and is trying way too hard to convince the gamers that he's right and "mainstream gaming" sucks. I mean, yes, I agree, games are a lot less fun now a days. How about not talking about it and make some more DS games then hmmm? I've got 8 games on my DS, at no point in my life have I owned only 8 games for a console after 6 months of its launch.
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Post by E. Randy Dupre »

Heh. I'm suddenly wondering if this might just be Miyamoto attempting to justify the brevity of the first generation Cube games - Luigi's Mansion and Pikmin being the worst offenders - and warning us that the same thing's going to happen when the Rev launches.
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Post by Zach Keene »

Specineff wrote:How long does it take to finish Super Mario 3, or Super Mario World?
Depends on whether or not you want to play through all the stages. SMW can be done in as few as 12 stages IIRC. SMB3 in 11 minutes may be superhuman, but the point remains you can skip most of it too if you just want a quick run-through.
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Post by GaijinPunch »

Luigi's Mansion and Pikmin being the worst offenders
Pass the joint, dude. Pikmin was excellent.
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Post by BUHA »

As far as I'm concerned, Nintendo makes games for babies. They cater to the youngest videogame audience and make simple, easy games that anybody can beat in a few days. It wouldn't be so bad if I could get into the atmosphere or the style of the games, but it just cries out "BABY" to me. I want action packed, challenging, games that will keep be busy for a long time NOT because i'm running around and going on fetch quests, but because the odds are against me and I need some more practice if I'm ever going to beat this damn level.

I agree that games need to be shorter. But if the game sucks and can be beaten in a couple days of playing and it offers no reason to play it any more then that's just as bad.
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Post by Dewclaw »

I don't really have anything to contribute to this conversation except that the idea of a game called "Touch Dic" is absolutely hilarious.

Also, I don't think that games are really too long nowadays, but I don't like the ones that are "artificially" long, that is the ones that require tedious building-up and boring item collecting in lieu of interestin gameplay and wot.
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Post by Rob »

Adventure games shouldn't be short. Games cost $50 new so there should be plenty of genuine gameplay in the game. Wind Waker should've been longer, and the problem with sailing wasn't so much the sailing, it's how they implemented it. It seemed like a mostly filler addition and it didn't have to be that way. Luckily sometimes it was pretty cool (like a storm, a giant sea monster). There just needed to be more variety and build up between areas. It wasn't too exciting sailing to the newest 10'x10' "island." Game needed more overworld landmass.
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Post by Moogs »

I agree with the man. If your game takes 40+ hours to finish, and it isn't an RPG, then I guarantee you I'm gonna get bored about halfway thru. Especially if the majority of that time is spent retreading old ground and collecting bullshit that doesn't even amount to anything substantial in the end. Miyamoto doesn't specify, but I think that's what he's referring to: games that aren't so much games as they are a bunch of artificially lengthening padding.
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Post by E. Randy Dupre »

GaijinPunch wrote:
Luigi's Mansion and Pikmin being the worst offenders
Pass the joint, dude. Pikmin was excellent.
Didn't say otherwise, did I? We're talking about the length of games and *only* the length, not the quality.
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Post by benstylus »

jp wrote:I've got 8 games on my DS, at no point in my life have I owned only 8 games for a console after 6 months of its launch.
Wow - 8 seems pretty high for what I've seen on the DS...

I've got 3 games and I've had the system since launch. I've got Feel the Magic, Zoo Keeper and Puyo Puyo Fever. (I don't count the Metroid demo as a game because it's not - it's a demo).

I also had Mario but sold it because it sucked and Pac Pix but sold it because it was censored.

So what is your DS list, jp?
You're arguing for a universe with fewer waffles in it. I'm prepared to call that cowardice.
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Post by jp »

I've got:
Super Mario 64 DS
Feel the Magic
Mr. Driller: Drill Spirits
Zoo Keeper
Wario Ware Touched
Yoshi's Touch N Go
Pac Pix


I had Polarium, but sold it on the grounds of it sucking.
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Post by benstylus »

jp wrote:I had Polarium, but sold it on the grounds of it sucking.
I wish they'd release another game like Mario's Picross - that was probably the most fun Puzzle game I ever played on the old Game Boy.
You're arguing for a universe with fewer waffles in it. I'm prepared to call that cowardice.
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