Shmups that haven't stood the test of time

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:44 pm

lemonade wrote:Xenon 2 Megablast (amiga). The music is the only thing good about this game nowadays and even that seems a bit repetitive to me now.

Xenon 2 wasn't as good a game as the reviewers were making out even back in the day, IMO. Slow ship, uninspiring level design, dull weapons (albeit lots and lots of them), crappy winning outro... the two things I liked about it were the musical score (Bomb the Bass ftw!), and "Super Nashwan Power" (and I must admit, the ability to scroll backwards on demand was interesting, but it slowed things down even more). I still prefer *playing* the original Xenon by a mile.

Also, it might interest you to know that it was considered dated even back in 1992, when a CD32 version was released.

(And if we are talking Bitmap Bros in general (rather than just shmups), it's all about the Speedball II

)

Blood Money has aged poorly, too.

doctorx0079 wrote:FUCKING GALAGA.

You being bored of it from overplaying it over the years doesn't mean it has aged poorly. The real test is to give it to someone who has never played it before and see what they make of it (I've done this with many 70s-80s games with 18-19 year old students before when I was a lecturer).

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:09 pm

Chi_Ryu wrote:
lemonade wrote:Xenon 2 Megablast (amiga). The music is the only thing good about this game nowadays and even that seems a bit repetitive to me now.
Xenon 2 wasn't as good a game as the reviewers were making out even back in the day, IMO. Slow ship, uninspiring level design, dull weapons (albeit lots and lots of them), crappy winning outro... the two things I liked about it were the musical score (Bomb the Bass ftw!), and "Super Nashwan Power" (and I must admit, the ability to scroll backwards on demand was interesting, but it slowed things down even more). I still prefer *playing* the original Xenon by a mile.

Also, it might interest you to know that it was considered dated even back in 1992, when a CD32 version was released.

(And if we are talking Bitmap Bros in general (rather than just shmups), it's all about the Speedball II )

Blood Money has aged poorly, too.

doctorx0079 wrote:FUCKING GALAGA.
You being bored of it from overplaying it over the years doesn't mean it has aged poorly. The real test is to give it to someone who has never played it before and see what they make of it (I've done this with many 70s-80s games with 18-19 year old students before when I was a lecturer).

It bores me. It's aged poorly.

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:23 pm

Galaga is better than Galaxian at least.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:49 pm

FIL wrote:Galaga is better than Galaxian at least.

true.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:56 pm

True indeed. Galaxian is truly boring.

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:03 pm

moozooh wrote:True indeed. Galaxian is truly boring.

Yes, agreed.

However, I maintain (to doctorx0079) - newcomers to Galaga tend to enjoy it, thus it hasn't aged badly, you are just bored of it.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Chi_Ryu wrote:newcomers to Galaga tend to enjoy it, thus it hasn't aged badly, you are just bored of it.

Decided to test this theory. Started Galaxian 32 minutes ago.

Galaxian: 8210 points after having only played the real thing once about ten years ago. I got the 800 point bonus a ton of times, but the way the bonus works seems retarded to me. I think it would be better (more frustrating but it would still be a reward) if the yellow ships paired with purples or blues if you shoot away all the reds first. Instead you just get "oh you fucked up lol, 150 points is now the most you can get"

What's up with the patterns? Thing loves to paint me into a corner without any way out. I could never get used to the popcorn going along a sine wave and dropping a shot right at the far end (where I'm trying to escape to).

Playing Galaxian gave me a feeling like being sent to hell.

Galaga: Same deal on not having played before (in memory anyway). 35 hits on the second challenge stage (captured fighter trick), 46.8 overall hit percentage, 46,910 total score.

Fun game! Two shots at a time is much better than just one. I'm sure it's surpassed by Galaga '88, but it seems to hold up rather well. I could imagine it'd get boring if there are no surprises after playing for years, but the way in which the patterns work is pretty unexpected and even when I know what's coming in the challenge stage, it's still exciting.

Ask me again some years from now :)

Edit: Galaga '88 - 54% and 35K on the first play, ugh

e_tank · Post by **e_tank** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:09 am

i think blazing lazers still holds up ok, i find it's still fun even though it's not difficult. you need to take it for what was, a console shooter aimed more at the average gamer rather than the shooter enthusiast. it's very accessible, people still love the game but most these people aren't hardcore shooter fans. for this reason i think it would have held up better if it defaulted on super mania difficulty and if the shield power up only covered you for a couple hits. on super mania the game is much more balanced, you actually have to lead and dodge bullets from time to time as you usually can't clear out everything firing at you without bomb spamming and there are many spots where if you die it can be very difficult to recover. most the bosses are still push overs but then again so are the bosses from r-type (sans the last one of course, and a couple of the others if you're weren't powered up). it's still not all that difficult for anyone who's into shooters but it does make the game more interesting, especially on the bubble level, although you can still puss out and take a shield power up at the more difficult parts.

what i loved most about the game was the variety and balance it offered between its primary and secondary weapons. there was no one combination that worked really well for every situation and having a certain power up at the wrong time could make things a lot harder for you (although this doesn't apply nearly as much on normal difficulty). however the game always encouraged you switch by making power ups plentiful along with giving you a second or two of invincibility.

i also liked how as you powered up your primary weapon you would gain layers to your side shields which in turn grew your hitbox making it harder to keep them fully powered up. weapon 4 was only good when it was powered up but absolute crap otherwise, so there was a certain risk involved with using it. on the flip side weapon 3 is useful at its lower levels but when powered up can be difficult to use with its slow rate of fire.

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:43 am

moozooh wrote;

True indeed. Galaxian is truly boring.

A couple of excellent old players are currently playing Galaxian HARD in my local arcade - Jr PacMan Craig and John Walters.
I've never liked this game much but I wouldn't say its aged.

(John Walters recently broke the WR on Ladybug, scoring over 4 mil. 4 Counter Stops, going past Part 99 (which is stage 99).
He logged over 12 hours on a credit of Mr Do, counter stopped Defender and other old titles back in the day.)

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:04 pm

Chi_Ryu wrote:
moozooh wrote:True indeed. Galaxian is truly boring.
Yes, agreed.

However, I maintain (to doctorx0079) - newcomers to Galaga tend to enjoy it, thus it hasn't aged badly, you are just bored of it.

I'm bored with it and most gamers won't even play it. As far as I'm concerned it's aged badly.

Mortificator · Post by **Mortificator** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:03 pm

Galaga hasn't aged at all. It's the exact same game it was 30 years ago.

That said, it was never one of my favorites. I like Galaga, but I would rarely play more than a credit at a time.

kengou · Post by **kengou** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:51 pm

1942, Xevious. I didn't play them very much growing up and when I tried them recently I couldn't get over how bad they both are. Of course I'm into manic/bullet hell shmups now and that does give me some bias, but as far as I'm concerned most games from that era that had clouds of enemies flying in weird patterns with no discernible bullet patterns or good bosses are really boring to me. Compared to "modern" shmups I feel they haven't aged well.

John845 · Post by **John845** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:05 pm

Steel Empire - Genesis

worstplayer · Post by **worstplayer** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:01 pm

For me, all shmups on Atari 2600 are totally unplayable now. Except River Raid, but that could be just nostalgia.
Anyone who never played it willing to try it now?

Chelnov · Post by **Chelnov** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:36 pm

I never liked 1942, mostly due to the beeping noises during the game but I love the sequels.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:52 pm

Chelnov wrote:I never liked 1942, mostly due to the beeping noises during the game but I love the sequels.

On CCC you can change the music.

@worstplayer: Stargate and Vanguard are good. Space Invaders is fun for short periods of time.

Oh crap, now I'm defending stuff.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:32 pm

Killed the thread, woo.

glitch · Post by **glitch** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:16 pm

HERETICS wrote:Xevious

i never laid a finger on Xevious until well after Mushihimesama got me into STGs, but nowadays i love it dearly.
and pretty much nothing else from that era (save for Millipede). Xevious is something special.
all the hidden stuff, the adaptive difficulty, the non-enemies (Grobda, Sheonite (seriously i get goosebumps just thinking about the Sheonites no kidding)).
Xevious never gets old.

dpful · Post by **dpful** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:40 am

ZOM wrote:
sven666 wrote:honestly i dont know why so many dislike axelay.. it still looks good, sounds good, the controls and gameplay are fine.

sure the game misses a couple of points here and there but it was never the end-all be-all shmup even when it was new..
Only thing I can't stand are the "pseudo 3D" mode 7 stages, especially the players ship movement on those; not cool.
The hori stages on the other hand are very well designed & the graphics & overall atmosphere are superb.

I still search the internet every once in awhile for "axelay hack" with the sincere hope that someone could one day put the hori levels all in a row. They are truly amazing. The vulcan weapon rules!

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:44 am

That 360 degree vulcan is pretty much the only weapon worth considering in hori stages. The rest (except the piercing laser) is either awfully limited in power, or in range, or in both.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:31 pm

Andi wrote:
Enhasa wrote:Xevious
Ban this person.

Just kidding. But, Xevious rocks and plays better than many other crusty old shooters. The point here is this: quality is everlasting. People love their spouses for 50 years, why can't people love a shmup like that?

Because spouses change & adapt over time - shmups don't. Perhaps that's why you & I, and maybe only a half-dozen other ppl on this forum recognize your avatar

Seriously, though, I'd agree w/ Axelay. Those vertical stages control like crap, and the perspective just doesn't work. Heck, I think some of the goofy perspectives in Philosoma work better than the vert stages of Axelay (dons flame retardant suit...). I'll agree w/ Phelios as well - perfect in its time as a serviceable Genesis/MD shmup, but today it's just not half as impressive as some of the other high-end shmups on the system, and not nearly as fun to play as it was when it was a new title. I guess since I mentioned it, Philosoma needs to be on the list. Still fun for a go once in a great while, but when I pull out 95% of my PSX shmup collection over that game, it proves that it's out of touch. Oh, and Sol Divide belongs in this list, though I've always thought that game was crap.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:10 am

kengou wrote:1942, Xevious.

Wtf? These are completely classic. You just don't like old shmups. Also, while it's not at all manic, Xevious and its early revisions are not easy, exactly. The rank can make things pretty rough at times.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:14 am

all old school and especially R-Type -_-;;

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:45 am

PROMETHEUS wrote:all old school and especially R-Type -_-;;

This has officially become a retarded thread. R-Type is the first truly great shmup. Someone with an Ur-name like Prometheus ought to be a bit wiser.

Post by **Ghegs** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:09 am

professor ganson wrote:
kengou wrote:1942, Xevious.
Wtf? These are completely classic. You just don't like old shmups.

I like old shmups and I think these have aged horribly. Though to be fair, they instantly become 25% better the moment you mute the speakers.

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:22 am

professor ganson wrote:
PROMETHEUS wrote:all old school and especially R-Type -_-;;
This has officially become a retarded thread. R-Type is the first truly great shmup. Someone with an Ur-name like Prometheus ought to be a bit wiser.

It's only meant as a joke. I never liked R-Type at all myself but there are some old school games I still like to play, and I understand that people still like them.

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:42 am

Xevious still has a little bit of depth to it.
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Xevious/Walkthrough

If you're playing well, they're pretty quick to break out the suicide bullets too. I used to hate on Xevious but a lot of it was from playing the kinda bad NES port, thinking about the horrible music too much, and not taking the time to look into any of the cool secret stuff. That's one game Xbox 360 achievements actually made me appreciate more instead of ruin for me...

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:50 am

I think Xevious became obsolete a week after it got released

Turrican · Post by **Turrican** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:20 pm

szycag wrote:Xevious still has a little bit of depth to it.
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Xevious/Walkthrough

If you're playing well, they're pretty quick to break out the suicide bullets too. I used to hate on Xevious but a lot of it was from playing the kinda bad NES port, thinking about the horrible music too much, and not taking the time to look into any of the cool secret stuff. That's one game Xbox 360 achievements actually made me appreciate more instead of ruin for me...

I don't know how achievements work on Xevious, but I also recommend to play it on DS under "navigation mode" - there's no better way to learn the game's rules as it marks SOLs, flags, current area and even the current rank which you can decrease by shooting at zolbaks.
Incidentally, Druaga's navigation mode is awesome as well.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:28 pm

professor ganson wrote:
kengou wrote:1942, Xevious.
Wtf? These are completely classic. You just don't like old shmups. Also, while it's not at all manic, Xevious and its early revisions are not easy, exactly. The rank can make things pretty rough at times.

For once I actually agree with Ganson. Gasp.

I still dig out 1942 and Xevious from time to time. Lately I have been playing Darius I quite a bit.

Just picked up Gradius III & IV at Play & Trade.

For me the golden era of shmups is about 1984 - 1994.