Death Smiles 2 [Cave 2009]

JAPJAC · Post by **JAPJAC** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:11 pm

2 looked like what 1 always wanted to look like but it couldn`t as it was trapped in the wrong hardware.

I for one think 2 looks better than 1 as that is an ugly bastad of a game, IMO.

I didn`t play 2 though and I only have ever given 1 100 of my Yen as I have no real interest so I can`t comment on gameplay.

I think kids will love this one and remember, everytime Cave release a new game it doesn`t make all their past releases unavailable.

Cave are the most overated company since Treasure if you ask me, bit of a one hit Ketsui wonder.

Rosse · Post by **Rosse** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:18 pm

Want!! I think the reindeer is awesome, haha. And that flyer's cute, you're all way too pessimistic

Midnight Milkshake · Post by **Midnight Milkshake** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:23 pm

I think that the first one is a very good shmup, really liked it, and spent more than 100 yen on it last time I went to Japan

.

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:29 pm

I think it's nice to see that Cave are finally letting the pre-rendered stuff go. That stuff was ugly in Guwange already. Even if the game turns out not to hot it's hopefully just a transition period for Cave hardware wise and we can start looking forward to a Cave game with Vanillaware presentation...

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:30 pm

Jet Black wrote:
jonny5 wrote:i dunno tho...those pics were pretty bad.....

can you even do 3d at 320X240?
You can do 480i thats 15kHz, too.

jonny5 a few posts above wrote:it could stil be 15khz....who knows...maybe its just interlaced to shit 480i

oh well....not concerned if this sux or not...i just want deathsmiles 1.....

Dragoforce · Post by **Dragoforce** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:31 pm

320x240 wrote:we can start looking forward to a Cave game with Vanillaware presentation...

That would be the most awesome thing since the invention of beer!

Midnight Milkshake · Post by **Midnight Milkshake** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:34 pm

320x240 wrote:. Even if the game turns out not to hot it's hopefully just a transition period for Cave hardware wise and we can start looking forward to a Cave game with Vanillaware presentation...

Let's hope so, as I've said in another forum, with this one, expected something similar like Blazblue or KOF XII, but Deathsmiles 2 won't be case

Midnight Milkshake · Post by **Midnight Milkshake** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:38 pm

320x240 wrote:. Even if the game turns out not to hot it's hopefully just a transition period for Cave hardware wise and we can start looking forward to a Cave game with Vanillaware presentation...

Let's hope so, as I've said in another forum, with this one, expected something like Blazblue or KOF XII, but Deathsmiles 2 won't be case

Chi_Ryu · Post by **Chi_Ryu** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:46 pm

Looks fine to me. If it's high res, that's great (so long as it has a low res fallback mode à la Naomi). Even better if it is stereo

Anyway, a question. What makes people think this is a "3D" game? Cave have used pre-rendered 3D models in their games for a decade, and I see nothing to suggest this is anything other than pre-rendered 3D (all you need for a linear shooter of these kinds, tbh). The gameplay looks entirely 2D as usual...

bloodflowers wrote:I guess I won't be buying it after all, I'm not buying a new cab/monitor just for one game.

Why buy a new cab/monitor? Odds are there is a tri-res chassis for whatever monitor you've got...

nem · Post by **nem** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:53 pm

Chi_Ryu wrote:Cave have used pre-rendered 3D models in their games for a decade, and I see nothing to suggest this is anything other than pre-rendered 3D

It's definitely not pre-rendered.

Nintendo 64 quality textures, low polygon count models, ugh, this is step backwards for sure.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:55 pm

Dragoforce wrote:
320x240 wrote:we can start looking forward to a Cave game with Vanillaware presentation...
That would be the most awesome thing since the invention of beer!

Seconded. Though it'll probably never happen.

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:56 pm

Udderdude wrote:Otomedius and Raiden 4 ran with these very modest requirements and they looked fine.

Oh dear...

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:02 pm

Otomedius looks like crap compared to older 2d games from Cave.
Raiden 4 looks just boring

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:14 pm

Plasmo wrote:Otomedius looks like crap compared to older 2d games from Cave.

...and it certainly doesn´t look as cool as any of the Parodius games.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:29 pm

Udderdude wrote:
Necronopticous wrote:All the preemptive hate and denouncement is hilariously childish. I love you guys.
CAVE, WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME?

I know, right? No Soupy fuck-pillows on day one. Seriously Cave, what were you guys thinking?

Seriously though, I'd like to see more substance in these stages... enemy placement so far is rather sparse.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:30 pm

Holy shit, looks like I have to fight off the 3-headed monster of 2D elitism over here.

First of all, I was comparing one 3D game (Deathsmiles 2) to two other 3D games.

Second of all, wether you consider a 2D game to look better than a 3D game no matter what the art style, etc. Is up to personal opinion.

Third, I really doubt you've played through all of Raiden 4 or Otomedius if you think it looks completely boring/crap.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:06 pm

First of all, I was comparing one 3D game (Deathsmiles 2) to two other 3D games.

Second of all, wether you consider a 2D game to look better than a 3D game no matter what the art style, etc. Is up to personal opinion.

Third, I really doubt you've played through all of Raiden 4 or Otomedius if you think it looks completely boring/crap.

Those games look like shit though. Raiden IV is leaps and bounds over III, but it's still ass compared to something like Ikaruga.

And I'm sorry, if you can honestly look at any of the large enemies in the game and think they look nice/are well drawn or whatever, then you're likely Cave's new target audience.

From about DOJ to now, the sprites is one thing that set them apart. That's now gone.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:44 pm

February is the worst time to announce a Christmas themed game.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:32 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:Those games look like shit though. Raiden IV is leaps and bounds over III, but it's still ass compared to something like Ikaruga.

Ikaruga has it's own art style that is interesting, but I don't like it that much myself.

GaijinPunch wrote:And I'm sorry, if you can honestly look at any of the large enemies in the game and think they look nice/are well drawn or whatever, then you're likely Cave's new target audience.

Are you talking about Deathsmiles 2? They look fine to me. They are likely using the same 3d artists they did from their previous games, only now, instead of rendering them as 2d sprites, they put the actual 3d models/textures in there.

If the actual 3d models don't look as good, it's possible the only reason they looked any good as 2d sprites was because the low resolution was hiding any flaws. In which case they would have to .. gasp .. make better 3d models.

Also I think it's hilarious you think Cave is changing their target audience by making a 2.5d shmup. Do you really think everyone out there is that enamored with CRTs running at 320x240?

GaijinPunch wrote:From about DOJ to now, the sprites is one thing that set them apart. That's now gone.

As mentioned before, from DOJ on, their sprites were mostly 3d models rendered as sprites anyway. The only thing that makes a sprite stand out is if it's completely hand-drawn, IMO. Not a 2d rendering of a 3d model.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:56 am

Udderdude wrote: If the actual 3d models don't look as good, it's possible the only reason they looked any good as 2d sprites was because the low resolution was hiding any flaws. In which case they would have to .. gasp .. make better 3d models.

No, it doesn't matter how detailed the models were before, because they were all flattened into 2d sprites...they could have been as detailed as they liked. But now they have to render those models real time, so they are hardware dependent as to how many polys they can render at 60fps.

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:01 am

Udderdude wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:And I'm sorry, if you can honestly look at any of the large enemies in the game and think they look nice/are well drawn or whatever, then you're likely Cave's new target audience.
Are you talking about Deathsmiles 2? They look fine to me. They are likely using the same 3d artists they did from their previous games, only now, instead of rendering them as 2d sprites, they put the actual 3d models/textures in there.

If the actual 3d models don't look as good, it's possible the only reason they looked any good as 2d sprites was because the low resolution was hiding any flaws. In which case they would have to .. gasp .. make better 3d models.

Also I think it's hilarious you think Cave is changing their target audience by making a 2.5d shmup. Do you really think everyone out there is that enamored with CRTs running at 320x240?

Well, Low Res Monitors is phasing out in the arcade, their numbers become smaller and smaller each time I visit an arcade. Operators may not want to shell out money buying new games that could only be run in old cabs.

So Cave have to move on to the High Definition very soon. This is nothing to do with the target audience. How graphic should be done in HD is another story.

Cave never takes the home console market seriously, they focus mainly at the arcade market.

Udderdude wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:From about DOJ to now, the sprites is one thing that set them apart. That's now gone.
As mentioned before, from DOJ on, their sprites were mostly 3d models rendered as sprites anyway. The only thing that makes a sprite stand out is if it's completely hand-drawn, IMO. Not a 2d rendering of a 3d model.

There would be some significant change in the sprite style when they moving from Low Res => High Res. I haven't seen any of their High Res works up close yet, so couldn't comments.

EDIT: After watching the Youtube video (still can't comment on the art style), I think the High Res allow the pretty sprite to be smaller, and thus allow your ship, enemy everything becomes smaller. This would left a lots of empty spaces, and it would takes a while for you to run from corner to corner.

It seems to me that Cave had make everything smaller in DM2, or it just me?

(I don't want Cave making SnS game.)

BryanM · Post by **BryanM** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:06 am

It could have looked hella worse though.

The cereal box buildings; could really do without.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:19 am

Dave_K. wrote:No, it doesn't matter how detailed the models were before, because they were all flattened into 2d sprites...they could have been as detailed as they liked.

Not really, seeing as most of that detail would be lost when it's squished to fit on a 320x240 screen.

Dave_K. wrote:But now they have to render those models real time, so they are hardware dependent as to how many polys they can render at 60fps.

This was a relevant issue back in the Playstation 1 days. Has any developer seriously worried about polygon counts for years now? I think that might be an issue if you were coding for a handheld system .. modern arcade systems and consoles have more than enough horsepower to handle it.

honorless · Post by **honorless** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:26 am

Udderdude wrote:If the actual 3d models don't look as good, it's possible the only reason they looked any good as 2d sprites was because the low resolution was hiding any flaws.

Udderdude wrote:The only thing that makes a sprite stand out is if it's completely hand-drawn, IMO. Not a 2d rendering of a 3d model.

This post is so fucking quotable.

So far, it doesn't actually look that bad. It's not quite as plain and untextured as I remember Otomedius being, and it looks like they've actually put more effort into their 3D models than when they were rendering to 2D. And I'm so glad to see the terrible PS1-era lighting effects on all the character graphics go away.

Still, was hoping Cave would take the KOFXII approach instead of just giving up the ghost. Their sprites weren't great, but they still had the advantage of 2D physics/hit detection. (Maybe I'm the only one, but I still find polygons harder to control precisely.)

Gameplay, though. I realize shit isn't done, but...no counter of any sort? And holy shit that slowdown is so unnecessary when the rank is on level 1...

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:15 am

If the actual 3d models don't look as good, it's possible the only reason they looked any good as 2d sprites was because the low resolution was hiding any flaws. I

No. What Dave K. said.

If the actual 3d models don't look as good, it's possible the only reason they looked any good as 2d sprites was because the low resolution was hiding any flaws.

Pre-rendering or using a computer is only a means to an end. The end product is still a sprite. And in the case of most Cave games, it's usually only a handful of objects (Mechanic bosses) that stand out as being computer generated. Even then, they are broken down into sprite animations... we don't have to worry about a horribly low poly count like anyone that buys shit hardware will.

Well, Low Res Monitors is phasing out in the arcade,

There are far more 15khz only monitors in Japanese arcades than 31khz only. Most games support both frequencies, either way. Even most HD games support 4:3 480p at least, maybe even 480i.

So Cave have to move on to the High Definition very soon.

We are years from that.... many the way the arcade *market* is behaving.

Cave never takes the home console market seriously, they focus mainly at the arcade market.

I think it's clearly obvious that this move to 3D marks a shift in what markets they'll be taking seriously, This has Otomedius written all over it.

. Has any developer seriously worried about polygon counts for years now?

Do you actually play video games? Anytype of hardware limitation (including polycount) will be around for quite some time. It will definitely be an issue w/ this hardware if it really is some 8 year old Asus piece of shit.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:02 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
Do you actually play video games?

he makes them

Post by **system11** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:36 am

jonny5 wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:
Do you actually play video games?
he makes them

So does RHE... And look how that turned out.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:42 am

touche....

but udderdude isnt crazy like that guy.....i said he made games....not smoke crack

and his games come out on time....and people 'get' them

i dont care.......2d....3d.....i like GOOD games....so if its good im happy

that said...i prefer 2d

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:23 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
Well, Low Res Monitors is phasing out in the arcade,
There are far more 15khz only monitors in Japanese arcades than 31khz only. Most games support both frequencies, either way. Even most HD games support 4:3 480p at least, maybe even 480i.

Really? That's the case in Japan?

Most arcade over here have replacing there cab with Blast City.The low res monitor account to only around 25% to 30%. This might caused by people here love to play Gundam XXX vs XXX. Which support HD right in the first game.

GaijinPunch wrote:
Cave never takes the home console market seriously, they focus mainly at the arcade market.
I think it's clearly obvious that this move to 3D marks a shift in what markets they'll be taking seriously, This has Otomedius written all over it.

Otomedius is totally another story. As there is no Low Res Touch Screen.

**************************************

The profitable of an arcade game is depends on how fast it is sucking in credits.

Otomedius is a shmups play like racing game. I am not saying there is element of racing in the game.

It just...
the e-pass
collect weapon
weapon selection
open up new difficulties (stages)
stage selection
.. etc.

It is not hard to 1cc 3 stages, so even those shmup gods couldn't spent more than 15mins at most (e.g. keep touching the Angels and not willing to start playing ) with a single credit.

For DDP DOJ, 5 stages, 2 loops, a single credit in the hand of a shmup god could least 50+ mins.

I think that's why most new Cave game don't have a 2nd loop. They try to solve the problem in Mushi Hime Sama by allow you to choose mode right at the beginning. A 1cc take around 18 to 25 mins.

So I guess Otomedius is sucking in money faster than any Cave games.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:02 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
If the actual 3d models don't look as good, it's possible the only reason they looked any good as 2d sprites was because the low resolution was hiding any flaws.
No. What Dave K. said.

I allready replied to his comment, but yeah .. 3d model detail is lost when you squish it onto a low-res screen.

GaijinPunch wrote:
. Has any developer seriously worried about polygon counts for years now?
Do you actually play video games? Anytype of hardware limitation (including polycount) will be around for quite some time. It will definitely be an issue w/ this hardware if it really is some 8 year old Asus piece of shit.

Then the question is, why is Cave trying to put a full 3d game on an 8 year old Asus piece of shit? :O