introducing Duality ZF

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:48 pm

Pixel_Outlaw, thanks for the criticism on the graphics. We are going to continue to use our programmer art, instead of anything procedural. They are placeholder graphics, and will be replaced, but maybe not in this version of the game.

I know Perlin Noise inside and out. I have researched and worked on it for years in a previous graphics project. I know every method Ken Perlin ever put out, as well as tons of other procedural noises. I also developed tweaks myself which, for our project at least, were best of all. I was actually going to publish an "ultimate" Perlin Noise guide, and share everything I had experienced. It's too bad I never had to time to colloborate it all together. That's life, I guess.

Anyway, the Perlin Noise graphics you show I find worse than our place holder graphics. Is it just me? As much as the beveling stands out to you, the Perlin Noise stands out to me, and screams "procedural" and "not real art". I could make it look less procedural, as I did with my other project, but it would take a lot of work. Since we intend on hiring a proper graphics artist eventually, I think our optimal path is to stick with our programmer art.

I'm rambling...

I know everything looks too layered, including some enemies, and we are going to change or delete anything that looks like that. I appreciate you pointing it out to us. Graphic design is NOT EASY!!! Our hopes is to get by without raising too many eyebrows, and then replace our temp graphics with proper, amazing, work, perhaps in Duality 2...

For now it's all we got. I do like the smoothness and clarity in our graphics. It helps not get in the way of the action. Do you like this part of it, too?

Please... continue to rip our game apart. This is stuff we want to know, whether we have the ability to change it or not.

lilmanjs · Post by **lilmanjs** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:12 pm

whatever the final graphics look like, are they going to be cell-shaded?

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:46 pm

lilmanjs wrote:whatever the final graphics look like, are they going to be cell-shaded?

No, the graphics are going to be 2D. They are not 3D models rendered in such a way as though to appear like 2D cartoon drawings. They are 2D cartoon drawings.

For now, what you see is the basic style the game will have. For future game, it is uncertain. It depends if we find a graphics artist that suits our game, or if people actually like our simple programmer-art. I, for one, am surprised at how much I like the crisp clear graphics that have been long lost in the shmup genre ever since 3D hit the scene, so we may just stick with what we have. But, this may all change once we start throwing animation in, and all that fun stuff. It's hard to predict what we'll end up doing.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:33 am

bkk wrote:
Matthew Doucette wrote: Cons:
- nobody has done it before
It has been done in console ports as wobble mode. It is generally despised

We are pleased to announce that up-down scrolling has been removed from our game.

It's a definite improvement. There were too many cons against the player with it. Scrolling the enemies off the top of the screen (making them unshootable) was the main problem. The next main problem was in multiplayer, one player could hold the rest of his/her crew down, stopping them from attacking enemies as soon as possible.

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:15 am

Matthew Doucette wrote:We are pleased to announce that up-down scrolling has been removed from our game. It's a definite improvement. There were too many cons against the player with it. Scrolling the enemies off the top of the screen (making them unshootable) was the main problem. The next main problem was in multiplayer, one player could hold the rest of his/her crew down, stopping them from attacking enemies as soon as possible.

That's a good decision. It's one of those "what the...? No, not that crap!" moments no player should have to experience.

Emph

lilmanjs · Post by **lilmanjs** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:28 pm

I hope we get a video soon of how the game plays now.

lilmanjs · Post by **lilmanjs** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:14 pm

will there be a soundtrack release for this game? if there is will it be free or will we have to pay for it(I'd pay for it).

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:38 pm

Sorry that we're not posting videos all the time. We're hard at work trying to get the game done, and I don't like showing unfinished work, especially when there are game play elements still being tweaked. There's little point is showing off a video with known issues just to have everyone tell us things are wrong.

The game will have a soundtrack. Imphenzia will be releasing an album with his songs that are featured in Duality: ZF. I would think he would charge for it, but that's up to him. His music is great, and I think we've selected the songs from his large collection that fit our arcade game best. So, there's a good chance a few of you will like it.

Thanks for the continued interest in our game. We're looking at a release date of February 28th. The delayed date is because we've decided to add more features before release.

lilmanjs · Post by **lilmanjs** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:05 pm

Jason wrote:Sorry that we're not posting videos all the time. We're hard at work trying to get the game done, and I don't like showing unfinished work, especially when there are game play elements still being tweaked. There's little point is showing off a video with known issues just to have everyone tell us things are wrong.

The game will have a soundtrack. Imphenzia will be releasing an album with his songs that are featured in Duality: ZF. I would think he would charge for it, but that's up to him. His music is great, and I think we've selected the songs from his large collection that fit our arcade game best. So, there's a good chance a few of you will like it.

Thanks for the continued interest in our game. We're looking at a release date of February 28th. The delayed date is because we've decided to add more features before release.

nice to have links to music this guy has made. do you have a link to anything about the album that will feature music from this game.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:11 am

lilmanjs wrote:nice to have links to music this guy has made. do you have a link to anything about the album that will feature music from this game.

There are no such (album) links, yet. I doubt there will be until the album is created. We need to finalize our music selection for him to get the album done, so it's all on us. We want to mention a link to download the album in our game, so it's tough to have these two products come out at the same time. We'll see what we can do. Maybe Imphenzia can hook us up with a placeholder website or maybe we'll just have to link to imphenzia.com and hope the visitors can find the album on their own when it is eventually released.

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:57 pm

Quick question.

Why a shooting game and not a rhythm game, a puzzle game or something else?

I mean, most people that do like shooting games (like people here) are very critical. And the rest of "gamers" don't really care about them.

Are you guys aware that the odds are against you?

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:30 pm

nimitz wrote:Quick question.

Why a shooting game and not a rhythm game, a puzzle game or something else?

I mean, most people that do like shooting games (like people here) are very critical. And the rest of "gamers" don't really care about them.

Are you guys aware that the odds are against you?

Because 2d shooters are our #1 favorite genre. When we entered Dream Build Play 2008, before the results were back, I noticed everyone on the XNA forums debating which game was the best. The opinions were all over the place, as well as whatever the definition of "best" even meant. But one thing was clear to me, was if "best" was defined by which game I would buy and love to play, then Duality: ZF would have got my vote. And it would not have been a biased opinion, it would have been because I actually would have bought and play that game over every other game submitted to Dream Build Play (and every other game produced in XNA so far for that matter). The reason is, I love this genre, and we are trying to make a 2d shooter that is the most fun. We are trying to fill that void of 2d shooters I have been yearning for since the Sega Genesis and real arcade days. And that's when I noticed the difference between us and almost every other developer. The answer to which game we found the "best" was our own game. Everyone else seem to be playing it like a business, as you just suggested with the notion we may sell more copies if we produced another style of game. "Fireplace" was in the top 10 Xbox LIVE Community Games one week. It is just a 3d fireplace, not even a game. I do not want to invent the next "pet rock" in some quest to "make millions". I want to make the games that are sitting in my mind that I want to play, that no one will have a chance to play until we create them. It's a passion. A true passion. That word gets thrown out there a lot today, but I don't believe many people know what it actually means.

Our only downfall will be the lack of resources we have (money, time, manpower) which may not permit us to implement everything we wish to in our game. The first version of Duality: ZF will have very obvious missing features TO US, and as long as we stay in the game, Duality's sequel will have those features. The more sequels we do, the closer the game will approach that "perfect" game inside our minds.

The ability to transmutate that thought into an actual physical game, that we can share with everyone (we think of it as sharing, not selling), is amazing. That's why we do it. That's why we are on these forums embarassing ourselves not knowing the "shmup terminology" and ultimately, I predict, that's why we'll succeed.

Even if Duality: ZF fails, both financially and through the eyes of reviewers and gamers, we will learn so much from it, and we will continue with that gained experience and knowledge. Everyone who buys the sequel will forget Duality: ZF even existed, and will assume great games just come from great developers without being aware of all the stumbles and failures in the past.

I hope that rant gave some hint at where we are coming from. I jumped back and forth between "I" and "we", but mostly Jason and I share the same enthusiasm and goals with the 2D shooter genre. And the Duality series is not even the end. There's an amazing side-scrolling in minds, too.

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:41 pm

Only just seen this after not playing many shmups for a long time and I'm pretty excited about it.

Got 400 points waiting to be spent but I think I'll wait a few days and get myself a copy of this. Nice to know there is an accomplished looking shmup coming to the XNA Community!

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:12 pm

sjewkestheloon wrote:Only just seen this after not playing many shmups for a long time and I'm pretty excited about it.

Got 400 points waiting to be spent but I think I'll wait a few days and get myself a copy of this. Nice to know there is an accomplished looking shmup coming to the XNA Community!

We are behind schedule, so hold on to those 400 ms pts for another week. Duality: ZF is quickly becoming a game any shooter fan is not going to want to miss. You guys will be the true test of its success. The game is essentially done and could have been released a few weeks ago, but we are perfecting and fine tuning what we have, and it takes tons of beta testing to do so. Don't worry, every additional day we take makes the game that much better, so I do not even feel bad about the extended release date this time.

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:19 am

Hey man, I think I speak for the sane when I say take as much time as is needed. I know I'd rather have a game as polished as possible and wait a little longer for it than get a buggy mess.

Can you give us any snippets of information? Any ship selections? How many stages? etc.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:13 pm

sjewkestheloon wrote:Hey man, I think I speak for the sane when I say take as much time as is needed. I know I'd rather have a game as polished as possible and wait a little longer for it than get a buggy mess.

Can you give us any snippets of information? Any ship selections? How many stages? etc.

The general consensus from professional developers is to take your time. The general consensus from non-software developers is to get it done no matter what. When you look at the average Xbox LIVE Community Game you can see why this is.

Here's a bit of a breakdown:

- no ship selections, we designed the most perfect ship in everyway and want the player to use it everytime. if we had different ships, they each would have to be imperfect, something we did not want
- 8 stages
- lots of game modes. "normal" or "home" will be the normal game. "arcade" will be what the game would have been had it been an coin-op arcade. you guys should love this one. the rest i'll keep secret and the rest are unlockable.

I'll keep it at that for now.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:57 am

i agree that if you need some more time with the game, you should take it, but te wait its gettin... you know what i mean.

i've gottten my X360 repaired, so i can play the game (hopefully) when it gets released, so hurry up folks.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:52 am

ok... so i've got myself some more MSP on my account... but they are itchin' to be spent on something else, so please, if you're gonna release the game in march, please, make it quick... i dont know how long im gonna take the itch.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:13 am

Awesome. We are working on it as fast as we can. The game really has become a lot larger than initially expected. The extra game modes will certainly make this game worth 400pts. We suspect that it will be some of our game modes that will be more popular than the actual game. Whatever the case, success in each game mode comes with its recognition (online scoreboards for each).

With new evlation of the market and the game (now that it is "bigger and better"), we calculate it's value at 600pts, but as you know we are not permitted to charge that. I feel pretty good for charging a bit less, 400, than we believe it is worth. Anyways, save your points, there's going to be nothing else like this game. You are going to want to buy it if you post on these forums at all!

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:11 pm

im gonna try, thats for sure, to save those 400 MSP... but, like i said in my previous post, please, release it quick... cuz i cant stand the itch... and since my console just got repaired (it had a nasty hardware failure... even worst than the infamous 3RL), i dont know how long it will last... so PLEASE!!! make it quick.

John845 · Post by **John845** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:15 pm

No offense, but they aren't going to release the game all of a sudden just because you want it quickly. They should keep making the game at there own pace so we get a quality product.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:09 pm

John845 wrote:They should keep making the game at there own pace so we get a quality product.

I appreciate the fact that you guys appreciate these things take time. We are in the final polishing stages and setting up the global scoreboards -- something no one is going to want to miss. I believe this by itself warrants our extra time. Believe me, we want it released ASAP ourselves.

Thanks for understanding!

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:54 am

John845 wrote:No offense, but they aren't going to release the game all of a sudden just because you want it quickly. They should keep making the game at there own pace so we get a quality product.

non taken.

now, i dont want you to understand my situation nor shit... and i know that they're not gonna release it tomorrow just because i say so... but i just wanted them to know that im willing to get their stuff sooner than later.

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:28 pm

Global scoreboards are actually a big selling point for me and I am pleased that they will be included.

On edit:

Just curious if you have an estimated release turnaround for this? I ask out of interest in the publishing process of XNA stuff rather than pushing for you to release the game. For example, how long does it take for the game to go live after it has gone gold? Is it instantaneous and what judging criteria does it go through?

Just curious.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:22 pm

sjewkestheloon wrote:Global scoreboards are actually a big selling point for me and I am pleased that they will be included.

On edit:

Just curious if you have an estimated release turnaround for this? I ask out of interest in the publishing process of XNA stuff rather than pushing for you to release the game. For example, how long does it take for the game to go live after it has gone gold? Is it instantaneous and what judging criteria does it go through?

Just curious.

There is no way for anyone producing an Xbox LIVE Community Game (via XNA) to have a specific release date, other than November 19th, 2008, and here's why:

If we want to release on March 31st, 2009, we have to go through a playtest process and a peer review process, both of which take variable amounts of time. We have no control over how many community members will playtest and review our game. The more, the faster.

Our game has some hype in the community, as we have been active members, so we should flow through those processes quicker than average, but this doesn't help us choose a date.

Let's say we are done playtesting and are shooting for a March 31st, 2009 release. So, we submit one week before. What happens if it takes 10 days? ...or 3 days? ...or anything other than 7 days to pass review? Whenever our game passes review, the speed of which we do not control, is when the game is released on Xbox LIVE.

Now, the reason a specific Novemeber 19th, 2008 was possible, is because that's when XBLCG launched, so all a developer had to do was ensure they passed review well before that date.

The optimum time to release is early Sunday morning (or Monday morning depending on when Major Nelson starts his weeks) to maximize the chance of breaking into Major Nelson's top 10 list. The top 10 list is copied around the world by bloggers and news sites, which catapults your game's sales (or at least trials) insanely.

http://majornelson.com/archive/2009/03/ ... h-2nd.aspx

The review process is not as in-depth as you might think, and more in-depth than you might think:

If your game sucks, subjectively, it does not matter. Very few people outside of XBLCG understand this. I have even complained about it somewhat, as the overload of "games that suck" are hitting the system before our "game that doesn't suck" has a chance to. But, as one wise XBLCG member pointed out, if 80% of the people in XBLCG got there way, the majority of XBLCG top selling games would have been rejected. Freedom is important, it allows breaking the mold, producing the unconventional, and whatnot. That's why you get these oddball games in that top 10 list I linked to above, which shock a lot of developers.

The review process is more in-depth than you might think in terms of game crashing when you unplug memory cards and controllers and other tricks to crash your game. Lots of technicalities that can fail your game. Most peer reviewers will pass the game without bothering with these tests.

It is almost impossible to fail unless your game crashes or has illegal content.

XBLCG is constantly improving everyday, and the processes may (and likely will) change in the future, for the better.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:31 pm

sjewkestheloon wrote:Global scoreboards are actually a big selling point for me and I am pleased that they will be included.

This is a huge reason our game has been delayed. A betatester coined Duality: ZF the "Geometry Wars Killer" once he had a taste of the scoring system and scoreboards. We put a lot of time and energy into our scoring system. We know it matters. We are true arcade fans. Anyway, I found this comment to be an amazing compliment to our game. I especially found it intriging as our game is not a Geometry Wars clone.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:30 pm

let's jut hope the game does not get delayed anymore. im dyin to try it out... and to avoid expending the MPs i bought the other day, im avoiding contact with the console, and if thats not possible (RE5 is sucha good game!), then i just dont go online with it.

so, plz guys, hurry up.

Xonatron · Post by **Xonatron** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:21 am

Kaspal wrote:let's jut hope the game does not get delayed anymore. im dyin to try it out... and to avoid expending the MPs i bought the other day, im avoiding contact with the console, and if thats not possible (RE5 is sucha good game!), then i just dont go online with it.

so, plz guys, hurry up.

We are working hard. No question about that.

The problem with releasing a game is that there is always something you will have wanted to change AFTER it is released. We are trying to change those things BEFORE it is released. This sounds ridiculously simple, and it is, but it is also ridiculously hard.

Duality: ZF has A LOT of different ways it can be played (I originally put 72 ways here, but I don't want to go into details), each of which can be played in various difficulty modes. That equals a lot of playtesting, tweaking, compromising. It's a lot of work!!

SandtouchLC · Post by **SandtouchLC** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:27 pm

Matthew Doucette wrote: The problem with releasing a game is that there is always something you will have wanted to change AFTER it is released. We are trying to change those things BEFORE it is released. This sounds ridiculously simple, and it is, but it is also ridiculously hard.

You are right to hold on to the product and polish it, as you only get one chance to make a first impression.

Because we are not experienced as developers, we decided to go with the "release early, release often" strategy that is common in the open source world. As a result, we got roasted because Chacker had a lot of bugs. OTOH, we now know what we need to fix (in terms of bugs, as well as gameplay and graphics) from the issues raised in the roasting.

But since you are experienced, there is no need to have your product roasted to figure out what the potential issues might be.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:00 am

SandtouchLC wrote:
Matthew Doucette wrote: The problem with releasing a game is that there is always something you will have wanted to change AFTER it is released. We are trying to change those things BEFORE it is released. This sounds ridiculously simple, and it is, but it is also ridiculously hard.
You are right to hold on to the product and polish it, as you only get one chance to make a first impression.

Because we are not experienced as developers, we decided to go with the "release early, release often" strategy that is common in the open source world. As a result, we got roasted because Chacker had a lot of bugs. OTOH, we now know what we need to fix (in terms of bugs, as well as gameplay and graphics) from the issues raised in the roasting.

But since you are experienced, there is no need to have your product roasted to figure out what the potential issues might be.

i agree with everthing you said, BUT bear in mind that you'll never be happy with your product... it will never be perfect for you, no matter what you do, add or delete from it...

so yeah, take your time guys, just remember, when you feel you've achieved your goals with the game, release it... its usually better to remove features at the end of the proccess than adding them (you can do both, ofcourse!).