Extremely popular shmups you don't "get"

clp · Post by **clp** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:55 pm

freddiebamboo wrote:
dying on purpose to keep your rank in check? How dumb do you have to be to think that that's a good idea?

With all the guides and information that is available on Raizing games, I'm amazed some people still can't understand rank and suiciding. When did adding an element of strategy and risk become a bad thing?

when people realised there shit at them and refuse to put in the amount of practice required to get good.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:59 pm

ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:1.) bullet colour. making a game harder by making bullets more difficult to see sounds like the definition of retardedness.

A large number of bullets means the same thing?

2.) level design - in many of them, the exact same enemies & enemy pattern turn up again and again and again.

A very large amount of shmups in general?

3.) the rank system - dying on purpose to keep your rank in check? How dumb do you have to be to think that that's a good idea?

Adding some originality?

I don't know. If you want to rant about how much Battle Garegga sucks, I'm sure there's a topic all about it.

drboom · Post by **drboom** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:02 pm

I thought rank management was crap until I started play Garegga for score. Now its one of my favorite games.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:55 pm

lgb wrote: I don't know. If you want to rant about how much Battle Garegga sucks, I'm sure there's a topic all about it.

There´s like a dozen threads about it.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:59 pm

The Darius series.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:30 pm

Nobody said Last Hope yet?

I certainly don't get it, although I admit to being crap at it for reasons which may or may not be due to my own lack of skill.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:03 am

iatneH wrote:Nobody said Last Hope yet?

I certainly don't get it, although I admit to being crap at it for reasons which may or may not be due to my own lack of skill.

Uhh, topic says Extremely Popular, I really doubt you could put Last Hope in that category.

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:03 am

ESPGaluda

It's a fine game and loved by everyone, but for some reason I just don't enjoy it.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:08 am

Udderdude wrote:Uhh, topic says Extremely Popular, I really doubt you could put Last Hope in that category.

I'm sure the devs believe the game ought to be extremely popular, it's just that we infidels don't get it ;) Plasmo is the only true virtuoso.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:25 am

DDP:DOJ

UGH

Persondude · Post by **Persondude** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:28 am

Enhasa wrote:All I know is that Touhou fans are more annoying than Cave fans are more annoying than Treasure fans are more annoying than everyone else.

You said it.

clp · Post by **clp** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:40 am

Ruldra wrote:ESPGaluda

It's a fine game and loved by everyone, but for some reason I just don't enjoy it.

your not alone there i had it 1cced it sold it straight away , i would give a left arm for a true esprade sequel .

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:46 am

clp wrote:
Ruldra wrote:ESPGaluda

It's a fine game and loved by everyone, but for some reason I just don't enjoy it.
your not alone there i had it 1cced it sold it straight away , i would give a left arm for a true esprade sequel .

ESPGaluda arrange mode on the PS2 is pretty close, it combines the scoring system of Galuda and ESP Ra.de, plus it's also harder with much more firepower coming at you.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:47 am

henry dark wrote:DDP:DOJ

This game is really only one for the superfreaks who have run out of challenges in almost every other shmup, especially the murderously difficult second loop. The only thing I can think of that's harder is Mushi Futari Ultra.

Alec · Post by **Alec** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:50 am

Radiant Silvergun

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:55 am

ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:There are some shmups out there that have lots and lots of rabid fans, but you can't figure out for the life of you why? Post here.

For me, it's the 8ing games. Sure, they're nice games, some of them have good graphics & sound (some of them are butt-ugly), but most of them have too many flaws to be considered masterpieces:

1.) bullet colour. making a game harder by making bullets more difficult to see sounds like the definition of retardedness.
2.) level design - in many of them, the exact same enemies & enemy pattern turn up again and again and again.
3.) the rank system - dying on purpose to keep your rank in check? How dumb do you have to be to think that that's a good idea?

I'm no 8ing expert, but I have played my fair share of their games, and those things are just so damn annoying.

Raizing/8ing games have a lot of counterintuitive stuff, but for people who want something different, it's definitely a good choice. The only beef I have is that it gives no indication it's that sort of game. Another one for people who are tired of everything else in shmups, and want something more esoteric, I suppose.

ForceDevice · Post by **ForceDevice** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:03 am

I don't like Raizing games either, but for a different reason. Screw the scoring system, medal chaining, rank, all that - I don't like them for their soundtracks and art style. I'm sure I'm gonna get crap for this, but it's the truth: I can't stand Garegga and Bakraid's visuals.

Garegga is bland, ugly and colorless to the point it disturbs me while I'm playing - some may say it's like that on purpose, yes I've heard all that before, but I just can't accept it. It hurts the game experience like nothing else, so what's the point in doing it?

And Bakraid is a colorful Garegga. Eww. It should make it better since Garegga's lack of color is one of the things I dislike about it the most, but no, it's even worse.

*dodges fanboy bricks*

Also, I don't get the DDP love, mostly because I think DP is far better than it (especially its soundtrack... DDP music is the shittiest shit since shit) but there's already at least one "DP > DDP" thread and I know most people around here disagree with me so I'll leave it at that.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:14 am

Alec wrote:Radiant Silvergun

Anyone but people who like to play for score will be put off by this one, you pretty much need to play for score, or your weapons will suck ass later on.

Not counting the Saturn version which lets you save your weapon power, so no matter how much you suck, you eventually start with max weapon power every game.

tommyb · Post by **tommyb** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:06 am

I really like Raizing games, but that doesn't mean I "get" them.

I suck at all of them, I can't figure out the scoring system for shit, but I have a blast playing the first levels of Ibara, Garegga and APB over and over again trying to figure it out =P

KindGrind · Post by **KindGrind** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:41 am

I suck at all Yagawa games without exception, which means I don't "get" them.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:35 am

Mushihime Sama

I find it a bit bland.

EddyMRA · Post by **EddyMRA** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:43 am

Many people here have very different definitions of what makes a good SHMUP and what does not. Topics like this only serve to cause conflict because Person A likes danmaku and hates everything else, while person B likes abstract games and person C likes horizontals.

I did not have much appreciation for any R-Type games until very recently. Heck, I'll even criticize the Raiden Fighters games by being wholly unbalanced and favoritist towards Slave users, especially Raiden Fighters Jet.

LtC · Post by **LtC** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:41 am

Touhou - I started with the Touhou games and I've played all of them quite a lot. Now 6 months later after playing the first game I don't 'get' the games anymore, mostly thanks to starting play shmups from ARC platform. I never got what was the fuss about the characters and story since there doesn't really even seem to be any story and the characters barely have 2 lines each. I'm someone who likes to play games for score but something like 95% of the fanbase says scoring is 'boring' or pointless, I don't get that either. The gameplay feels rather dull now, I prefer more games where you come with unexpected situations and have less reacting time now.

Gradius V - I keep playing this game every now and then. I beat stage 2 and I get bored and close the game... every time. And then I just go and play a different game.

Thunderforce VI - I don't know if this one counts as popular but anyway: The game looks amazing and sounds amazing but... what use is for epic soundtrack if boss fights last under 20 seconds?

Don't get me wrong I don't hate horizontal shooters, actually Darius Gaiden is one of my favourite MAME shmups.

Bugs... spaceships shooting bugs. I don't understand why should a spaceship be shooting bugs, bugs are nasty. Is it something common on shmup developers' childhood where they go squishing bugs as kid and then decide to make games where they squish bugs with spaceships? It's understandable in games like Mushi where your 'ship' is a bug as well but I don't understand it when you have a spaceship. It's even more bizzare than in Darius Gaiden where the game music sounds like porn music and you're killing lots of fish -_-;;

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:59 am

LtC wrote:Is it something common on shmup developers' childhood where they go squishing bugs as kid and then decide to make games where they squish bugs with spaceships?

Yes.

I mean, no. I certianly didn't engage in any activity like that .. >_>

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:14 am

Udderdude wrote:Raizing/8ing games have a lot of counterintuitive stuff, but for people who want something different, it's definitely a good choice. The only beef I have is that it gives no indication it's that sort of game. Another one for people who are tired of everything else in shmups, and want something more esoteric, I suppose.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts. Raizing games are just not for everyone (including me, I guess).
The complaint about bullet colour / bullet visibility is valid, though. It's a problem found in all Raizing games except Bakraid. Sure, you can get used to it, but I don't think that things players have to get used to are good design choices. Ever.

As for games I don't 'get':

- Treasure's game, most prominently RSG.
- The Darius series.
- Thunderforce IV. Although I love the other entries in the series, part IV strikes me as overly long and drawn-out. (I guess I'm not really someone who likes his games 'epic'.) Additionally, it has one of my 'favourite' shmup pet peeves: bullets obscured by enemy explosions. Ack!

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:51 am

To the OP's Raizing criticisms... just.. no. It sounds like you've only given the games a cursory play. The rank comment really shows it, since aside from Ibara (which isn't even a proper Raizing/8ing game) and Garegga (perhaps Dimahoo as well) rank control isn't even required for a clear. For most of their games, the rank system adds another layer of depth, and forces players to think differently as they improve. To casual players, rank isn't even an issue.

The only game I've had bullet visibility issues with is Garegga, aside from the dreaded overhangs in Batrider, which while poor design, hardly ruin the game considering how limited their use is and how easy it is to adjust after seeing them a few times.

EddyMRA · Post by **EddyMRA** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:14 am

Garegga is different from many games. The big thing is rank management. That's something I have not figured out yet, but seeing the game at maximum rank is insane. Batrider at maximum rank is also crazy.

I'm learning the right times to suicide to keep the rank down in these games.

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:51 am

Rank = Counterbalance to becoming too powerful and thus making a game too easy. However:

Insane rank = insert more coins = more profit.
Of course you have to be careful to not totally piss off your customers, otherwise = less profit. This is a thin line. (I think I may be on to something here.)

Anyway, on topic: Ikaruga. Because... *drumroll*: It's not a shmup, it's a memorizer puzzle game.

Post by **spadgy** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:02 am

moozooh wrote:Is the thread about shmups where you understand everything about them, but just can't like it and don't know how others like it so much; or, where you don't understand everything about them and thus don't know the rest? Because the opening post sounds closer to the second category.

I think it's possible to decide you don't like/get what's so beloved about a shmup before understanding it all. Sometimes it just doesn't stick.

For me, I can't get on with the Fantasy Star games...

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:06 am

Extremely popular shmups you don't "get"

spadgy wrote: For me, I can't get on with the Fantasy Star games...

I never looked at the Fanatsy Star games this way.

(I suppose you meant Star Soldier?)

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Extremely popular shmups you don't "get"

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