Defending Shmups

[FatalError]

My friend replies with this message on my Livejournal:

I don't care for shooters when it comes to video games. I know some are very difficult but all it really is, is move forward and shoot everything in front of you. The game just seems redundant and while yes it may be challenging because there are so many enemies on the screen and and lots of shit that can kill you I personally don't find them challenging because I find the concept so simplistic.

This irritates me because, first of all the majority of games (unless it's something with great replay value), is going to be repetitive/redundant. Platformers, RPGs, racing games, sports games, whatever, and second, I doubt that my friend (who shall remain nameless) has ever played a shooter.

So, what can I say to my friend that I can successfully defend shmups?

[black mariah]

Don't say shit. Sit his ass down in front of about ten shmups that all play different. DoDonPachi, Dangun Feveron, Shikigami, Ikaruga, Psyvariar, Progear, R-Type, Dragon Blaze, Batrider... and so on.

[FatCobra]

Show him the wonders of shmups. And make him play.

[neorichieb1971]

All games are simplistic. Racing games you push the X button and the car speeds up, square slows you down and you turn.

FPS games - Strafe, hide, shoot, strafe hide and shoot.


Sports games are very very repetitive and in alot of them you can repeat a tactic to keep scoring.


In fact all games are simplistic, they have to be to be played with a joypad or joystick.


His words have no real meaning.

[mannerbot]

I personally don't find them challenging because I find the concept so simplistic.

lolz!

[shiftace]

He thinks they're boring because he can understand them on a vague level?

[Rob]

This guy is nobodies friend.

[Cthulhu]

Don't bother. Most people won't like shmups no matter what you tell them, or how good you make them sound.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Don't blame him. We've all got that genre we hate even though we haven't digged deep into it. I hate sports games, but I haven't played one for more than 10 hours. I think it's all the bad mouthing about them I've gotten from people; same applies to shmups.

[sffan]

I can see why an outsider would say that, so I'm not surprised by his comment. I'm sure shmups seem simplistic to a lot of people who aren't into them and haven't played them enough to appreciate subtle differences (or major ones). It's not his fault - He's just ignorant.

Don't make him play unless you really care what he thinks about videogames and you want to change how he thinks. Then again he may play some out of his own curiosity and come to like them on his own (or because of your nudging).

Sorry. I guess I don't have a point. Or an answer to your question about what to say.

[BulletMagnet]

I wonder what was the last shmup he played, and how long ago it was made...he might not even know that new shooters are still coming out, and all the new concepts and such that have been introduced in recent years...most people don't, because most people don't import. I'm not in the "kill the infidel!" camp on this one, but I'd advise him (if he hasn't already done so) to investigate the genre a bit more closely before he says much about it. If he does so and still doesn't like them, then that's just his preference, but at least he has something to back it up with.

[Nemo]

Who cares what anyone else thinks as long as you like them. I think DDR games suck and I don't need some greasy-haired, non-pubed, 20-something in a sweaty leotard expounding on the joys of rhythm stomping. People have different interests, life goes on.

[Acid King]

I personally don't find them challenging because I find the concept so simplistic.

lolz!

I concur.

[flux]

I personally don't find them challenging because I find the concept so simplistic.

Hmmm...I wasn't aware simplicity was a bad thing.

Does that mean he can do something like walk a tight-rope? All you do is walk; it's simplistic, so it must be easy.

Everyone can have his/her own opinion on what he/she likes, but it annoys me when people base it off assumptions. Atleast have a valid reason for not liking something.

[icepick]

I agree with many replies in this topic, though the ones from mannerbot, BulletMagnet and Acid King stand out.

What I find funny (in the "indifferent" sense) is that this person goes to your journal and comments on something that you wrote (probably speaking highly of some game, or the genre itself, am I right?) and posts a reply that they know is going to be inflammatory--or they simply have no idea of how ignorant/inconsiderate they may appear.

If you know the friend IRL, and are good friends, then it might be worth it to speak productively with them about it. There are a number of holes in the quoted statement (okay, well) and if they actually haven't played any of these games, then the statement is mostly laughable... A game from any genre isn't fun or challenging, if you don't play it.

So, I'd probably be inclined to challenge their statement, but it would depend on the person. Some people simply go around and try to pick fights because they might not have anything better to do, or maybe someone did it to them when they were growing up... If this person likes video games in general, then they have to at least "not mind" shmups. Shmups are the video games of video games, man! Addictive as all get-out for anyone that plays them, too. (Note that "playing" means playing.)

[sethsez]

Hmmm...I wasn't aware simplicity was a bad thing.

It doesn't have to be a bad thing for him not to enjoy it. There's nothing objectively bad about opera, but I'd rather not listen to it.

He didn't say "OMG SHMUPS SUCK!" He said "I don't care for them and here's why." It's totally reasonable.

Besides, he's right... shmups are simplistic. The mechanics are among the most basic in gaming these days -- this is partially due to the total lack of physics, because in most other action games, from platformers to racing games to FPS, you have to deal with the in-game physics. Landing a jump in Mario is difficult because of how inertia and gravity affects him, but in a shmup you're essentially just moving a dot (the hitbox) around on the screen with no challenge in doing so. And you don't see much variety from the beginning to the end. For some people, this is a good thing because simplicity allows for a more pure test of skill (your ability to dodge bullets isn't fucked over by the game mechanics), and for other people the simplicity makes it dull.

People aren't going to like the same things you like. It's a fact of life, and he's not "ignorant" because of it. Move on.

[8 1/2]

*shakes head and looks about at a shelf full of shmups*

Huh? What happened? Hey, I hate this shit too.

[Specineff]

Some people need to be strapped and forced to play a decent shmup, Clockwork Orange-style.

Same can be said of FPS (OFMG HLAO IS TEH AEWSOME LOL ROFLMAO R0X0Rz!!!111ONe!!1ELEVEN!!1), because all you do is avoid an enemy's shots, get in front of him, and pull the trigger.

I must be getting old.

[sethsez]

Same can be said of FPS (OFMG HLAO IS TEH AEWSOME LOL ROFLMAO R0X0Rz!!!111ONe!!1ELEVEN!!1), because all you do is avoid an enemy's shots, get in front of him, and pull the trigger.

So maybe he doesn't like FPS either. Or maybe, as I said earlier, the inherantly more involved mechanics of a FPS are more appealing to him for his action fix (and why is it that when people here say "I like shmups because of the relative simplicity compared with most games of today" it's met with a flurry of "I agree"s, but when someone says they dislike shmups for precisely the same reason it's met with "what do you mean, it's not simple at all!"?).

Jesus Christ, god forbid anyone not like shmups. "They just haven't played the right ones!!!1!" No, maybe they just don't like them. Honestly. Truly. It's possible. And it's not a defect or a sign of stupidity. He didn't even say shmups suck, he just said why he personally doesn't care for them. He's justifying his taste, not attempting to make an objective assessment of the genre's quality.

Quite frankly, people who INSIST that you enjoy everything they enjoy and spend all their time with you trying to "convert" you are among the most obnoxious people out there.

[Ghegs]

Quite frankly, people who INSIST that you enjoy everything they enjoy and spend all their time with you trying to "convert" you are among the most obnoxious people out there.

Like christians.

[Kelso from 70's Show]BURN![/Kelso]


Disclaimer: Not all christians are like that, I was just making a joke on the stereotype image. Be not offended.

[D]

He IS talking about FPS games and I agree with him

Slam his ass down behind any Donpachi incarnation and you will see his pupils grow.

You guys don't have a clue how much general 'normal' (other) people enjoy shoot 'em ups. Just because they're not heavilly promoted/sold you think that you are alone. you are not alone. Many people just still haven't discovered the holy grail of gaming.

[llabnip]

I personally don't find them challenging because I find the concept so simplistic.

Hmmm...I wasn't aware simplicity was a bad thing.

Good point! Shmups are simplistic... but not in a bad way. Maybe "simplistic" is the wrong term... maybe... "simplisticly pure". That's one of the reasons they are so attractive to me... it's a basic concept that is repeated with all shooters... adding a few twists and new patterns doesn't change the basics - move, shoot, don't die. The best games in life (not just video games) have simple rules but are very difficult to master. Go is a good example (there are really only 2 rules and some interpretations with scoring).

Besides, the Atari 2600 proved that great games only really require one big red button

[Dandy J]

Yes, other than scoring systems (which obviously play a big part in experienced play), shmups are very simple. Whatever, if he doesn't like them he doesn't like them.

Shmups fall under the 'competitive' side of games, where the point is to get better and better at the game either to beat other people, or beat a record/score (other players' scores). Multiplayer FPSs, fighting games, and puzzle games (versus others or for record) all fall under this.

Then there are games like GTA. The game's focus is just to fuck around and do the missions, and even though one might get good at doing this, the game is made simply to entertain. It's not to urge the player to go for a faster time or become more skilled in some way.

Most people who play video games fall under the 2nd category, they do it solely for entertainment, not to actually get better at something. It's just a different mindset. It's also a big reason why shmups are not popular, a very small percentage of gamers will approach games with a competitive state of mind. That combined with the fact that even competitive gamers don't usually focus on on singleplayer, and shmups have core 2D mechanics (HURR OLD LOL).

2D fighting games are not popular for the same reasons, except they are multiplayer, so that pulls up the popularity when compared to shmups quite a bit.

EDIT - OK I just read your friend's full response. He likes board games? I'm assuming games like Risk and other strategy games and stuff. I wouldn't excpect him to like shmups. A board game is the complete polar opposite of what a shmup is. One is based on thinking and one is based on reacting. In a board game, the most required skills are strategy and thinking, while the required skills for a shmup are hand speed/dexterity and reaction time. You don't need to worry about reaction time in a board game, and you don't need to worry about mind games in a shmup.

Mind vs matter, two completely different skillsets. This thread still has some good discussion in it, but you really need to leave your friend alone.

[black mariah]

Quite frankly, people who INSIST that you enjoy everything they enjoy and spend all their time with you trying to "convert" you are among the most obnoxious people out there.

Like christians.

[Kelso from 70's Show]BURN![/Kelso]


Disclaimer: Not all christians are like that, I was just making a joke on the stereotype image. Be not offended.

And Democrats!

Disclaimer: What? Democrats are things. */REALLY obscure Family Guy reference*

[Acid King]

Hmmm...I wasn't aware simplicity was a bad thing.

It doesn't have to be a bad thing for him not to enjoy it. There's nothing objectively bad about opera, but I'd rather not listen to it.

He didn't say "OMG SHMUPS SUCK!" He said "I don't care for them and here's why." It's totally reasonable.

Besides, he's right... shmups are simplistic. The mechanics are among the most basic in gaming these days -- this is partially due to the total lack of physics, because in most other action games, from platformers to racing games to FPS, you have to deal with the in-game physics. Landing a jump in Mario is difficult because of how inertia and gravity affects him, but in a shmup you're essentially just moving a dot (the hitbox) around on the screen with no challenge in doing so. And you don't see much variety from the beginning to the end. For some people, this is a good thing because simplicity allows for a more pure test of skill (your ability to dodge bullets isn't fucked over by the game mechanics), and for other people the simplicity makes it dull.

People aren't going to like the same things you like. It's a fact of life, and he's not "ignorant" because of it. Move on.

It's not that he doesn't like shooters, it's that his logic for not liking them seems strange. He doesn't find them challenging because the concept of moving and shooting is too simplistic, when the only reason it is that simplistic is because he's boiled it down in to the standand components of a shooting game, shoot and move. Go, checkers, chess and Risk are just moving pieces around a board, and they are simplistic only when presented as such. You're not going to win a game of checkers or chess without taking in to account your opponents strategy and thinking about what to move and when to where. You can't move pieces randomly and win.

The same goes for shooting games. Sure, all you do is move around and shoot things, but you're not goin to beat Batrider or Garegga without developing boss strategies and coming up with ways to control the rank. It's like he's simply giving short shrift to shooting game strategy.

What it most likely comes down to is that he probably prefers slower paced, more cerebral strategy and games. That's fine. However, simplicity in design and concept has no bearing on how simple, complex or mentally challenging the actual play is.

[zaphod]

The guy who said he was talking about first person shooters is right on the ball.

He's NOT talking about shmups. you don't Moveforward and shoot guys in your way. only in some borderliners lie COmmando is that an accurate description.

[Stormwatch]

Racing games you push the X button and the car speeds up, square slows you down and you turn.

Square button? Only the Plaything has a square button. Are you by any means implying that we play on Playthings? How dare you?!

H4ARDC0R3 G4M3RZ D0N'T PL4Y 0N PL4YTHINGS!!!!!!111ONE11!1

[visuatrox]

So, what can I say to my friend that I can successfully defend shmups?

I would not say anything, because your friend is the one missing out on the good games. It is punishment enough for him to be a mainstream gamer .

Shmups are easy to learn but hard to master. Just because the basics are simple does not necessary make it bad, just to compare with something.. if they included 100 more rules to soccer would that make it a better sport?

[sethsez]

He's NOT talking about shmups. you don't Moveforward and shoot guys in your way. only in some borderliners lie COmmando is that an accurate description.

You move foward and shoot everything in your path in just about every shmup ever made. Of course, moving foward is automated, but that doesn't make it an invalid point.

Just because the basics are simple does not necessary make it bad, just to compare with something.. if they included 100 more rules to soccer would that make it a better sport?

Soccer is a good game. It's relatively simple. It's popular all around the world. I, however, find it amazingly dull and can't force myself to sit through an entire game.

See how that works?

[Specineff]

Same can be said of FPS (OFMG HLAO IS TEH AEWSOME LOL ROFLMAO R0X0Rz!!!111ONe!!1ELEVEN!!1), because all you do is avoid an enemy's shots, get in front of him, and pull the trigger.

So maybe he doesn't like FPS either. Or maybe, as I said earlier, the inherantly more involved mechanics of a FPS are more appealing to him for his action fix (and why is it that when people here say "I like shmups because of the relative simplicity compared with most games of today" it's met with a flurry of "I agree"s, but when someone says they dislike shmups for precisely the same reason it's met with "what do you mean, it's not simple at all!"?).

Jesus Christ, god forbid anyone not like shmups. "They just haven't played the right ones!!!1!" No, maybe they just don't like them. Honestly. Truly. It's possible. And it's not a defect or a sign of stupidity. He didn't even say shmups suck, he just said why he personally doesn't care for them. He's justifying his taste, not attempting to make an objective assessment of the genre's quality.

Quite frankly, people who INSIST that you enjoy everything they enjoy and spend all their time with you trying to "convert" you are among the most obnoxious people out there.

I wasn't referring to his friend. Just people who diss shmups without playing them.