The problem with Psikyo games

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:28 am

Is it really that bad? I have noticed that GB2 kicks my ass more than most games (survival-wise, though I guess survival is a big part of Psikyo games) in the first 5 levels or so, maybe it's because of that...
What affects it? Survival? Bombing? I never collect excess powerups, I use maybe one or two for each life.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:45 am

Survival time. Even after you die it goes back up pretty fast.

You can power down, which almost works. I let the stage five boss bump into me just before I kill it. That will remove a bullet or two from the fast bullet spreads at the beginning of stage six. You might want to ask in the strategy section and see if someone like BER will respond. I never liked to power down since I didn't like to lose the bonus points and never anticipated surviving more than one stage in the loop anyways.

evil_ash_xero wrote:Seriously though, the biggest problem is the "sameness" of all their games. And yeah, I know, all shmup companies that release so many titles get the same problem. But damn, Psikyo were doing it right off the bat! And the original concept wasn't that great to begin with. At least Cave had DonPachi, and then took it to another level with DDP, and then fiddled with the formula with ESP and Guwange, and even had that weird title Dangun(which was cool).

I see refinement. Leading up to almost any great shooter. Not that DonPachi is great (another step towards... DOJ), but have you played V-V? A game I'd much rather play than DonPachi. Psikyo started with the VS formula. Sengoku Ace is a refinement of those games. The big differences between Psikyo and Cave as I see them:

-Psikyo's refinements were more cautious and almost always made for a more enjoyable game. The only thing I can't figure out is why they kept bouncing between 3 & 4 random stages. For Cave, they are more about swapping out scoring systems. This makes their games seem more individual.

-Psikyo was not good at diverging from their formula. Their experiments (Sol Divide, Pilot Kids) include their worst games, while I think Cave's experiments (Guwange) are their best.

And I think Psikyo's graphics go unappreciated around here. Both Cave and Psikyo have largely uninteractive background graphics. Cave's, like everything else they do, are just louder. It demands attention like their most aggressively shitty soundtracks. But how many memorable looking stages and bosses do they have? Very little stands out for me.

There is a Super Nintendo effect with Cave graphics. They look bright and cartoony even when they should look dark and menacing. Dragon Blaze pulled this off a lot better. That boss that EOJ posted is cool looking and it looks like the player bombed immediately since the pattern is that frightening. Cave is at their best when it just looks like they are lifting straight from Dogyuun.

As awesome as Dragon Blaze is, I'm kind of glad that was their last vertical scrolling shooter. Where could they go? Smaller and smaller hitbox + more and slower bullets. Keep going like that and you get Cave games. Kind of like the Touhou dead end Cave is in.

What really pisses me off though is the large number of home ports these bozos have.

Argh, arcade shooters getting home ports. ARGH. Absolutely one of the stupidest comments I've seen on this board.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:58 am

Wait until you 1-life it to the stage 5 boss. Memorization won't be enough. Rank is more severe in GB2.

I savestate practiced the 5th boss at max rank, so now when I DO make it to the 5th boss with less than max rank, I actually do worse because it throws off my timing on his memorization pattern. And all the other patterns aren't exactly scary (max rank or not), just that first volley from his second form that's BS memorized tap timing.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:08 am

Arvandor wrote:so now when I DO make it to the 5th boss with less than max rank, I actually do worse because it throws off my timing on his memorization pattern.

So what you're saying is that you can't memorize your way to victory. Gotcha. Darn rank.

captpain · Post by **captpain** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:32 am

I dunno Rob, I think the 'louder' and chunkier graphics that Cave has makes for more distinctive games even apart from all other elements. I agree that Psikyo graphics get too little love, though... I think everything past 1945II looks great. Actually the art in GB2 is some of my favorite of all shmups.

The lack of big chunkiness/in-your-faceness does hurt them in the 'public' (or rather the tiny shmup community's) eye, but I think what's worse is the repetition of the same or at least very similar bullet graphics. Terribly similar yellow-orange patterns can only do so many times... of course DB is different but then again it was the last game.

Psikyo is a fantastic company but the stuff that Cave has produced seems to just be at the next level. It's dumb though to pretend like Psikyo is somehow bad, because their games are about as top notch as you can possibly get. It's like, OK I like Whistler's Mother more than I like the Mona Lisa (transferred to the last-era shmupping world).

And wow have I ever stepped into the next level of nerdiness.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:49 am

captpain wrote:I think everything past 1945II looks great.
...
Terribly similar yellow-orange patterns can only do so many times... of course DB is different

pink = sellout

Have you played Sengoku Ace & Blade? They have some awesome stuff. I think Ace is their best soundtrack, too.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:13 am

So what you're saying is that you can't memorize your way to victory. Gotcha. Darn rank.

It's ONE pattern. And one that I'm sure I'll get a "feel" for at any rank, but it'll always bother me that I can dodge it without actually being able to see how I'm dodging it. It's like when you get lucky dodging a stupid hard pattern you feel should be killing you... Only I'll get it every time, no matter how harmless it becomes.

The more I play Dragon Blaze and Gunbird 2, I think I'm actually liking Gunbird 2 a lot more overall, even though I like the gameplay more in Dragon Blaze. The character selection, music, and goofy cutesy robot + pirates atmosphere I'm finding very charming.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:20 am

I'd like your thoughts on the sixth boss. ;]

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:56 am

Maybe tommorow I'll try to savestate my way through stage 6 so that I can toy around with it at max rank and I'll let you know.

I do know that you consider it to be much more difficult than the stage 7 boss, and you're a far better player than I (at shmups in general, let alone Psikyo) so I'm sure I'll get thoroughly raped sans vaseline.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:25 am

I think it's best to just get used to the max rank. If I get bumped by a drone and the rank drops a little I get really thrown off.

The 1-6 boss is rough, I always chuck a bomb so I don't die and lose the 7 bombs.

BTW, I'm apparently one of the few that thoroughly enjoys both Psikyo and Cave. I like both styles and play both companies' best efforts frequently.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:04 pm

captpain wrote:Is it really that bad? I have noticed that GB2 kicks my ass more than most games (survival-wise, though I guess survival is a big part of Psikyo games) in the first 5 levels or so, maybe it's because of that...
What affects it? Survival? Bombing? I never collect excess powerups, I use maybe one or two for each life.

IIRC in GODs superplay of GB2 he hovers over bosses and keeps bumping into them to power down, then waits for the three popcorn enemies to appear and give him a powerup (during a phase where he dismembered the boss enough to do this quite safely). I THINK the did that to keep the rank down.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:12 pm

Frederik wrote:
captpain wrote:Is it really that bad? I have noticed that GB2 kicks my ass more than most games (survival-wise, though I guess survival is a big part of Psikyo games) in the first 5 levels or so, maybe it's because of that...
What affects it? Survival? Bombing? I never collect excess powerups, I use maybe one or two for each life.
IIRC in GODs superplay of GB2 he hovers over bosses and keeps bumping into them to power down, then waits for the three popcorn enemies to appear and give him a powerup (during a phase where he dismembered the boss enough to do this quite safely). I THINK the did that to keep the rank down.

Are you sure it wasn't just milking for points? He stops doing it after awhile anyway. I didn't see him do it during the second loop.

Awesome replay, btw, guy lives up to his initials

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:21 pm

Rob wrote:Survival time. Even after you die it goes back up pretty fast.

You can power down, which almost works. I let the stage five boss bump into me just before I kill it. That will remove a bullet or two from the fast bullet spreads at the beginning of stage six. You might want to ask in the strategy section and see if someone like BER will respond. I never liked to power down since I didn't like to lose the bonus points and never anticipated surviving more than one stage in the loop anyways.
evil_ash_xero wrote:Seriously though, the biggest problem is the "sameness" of all their games. And yeah, I know, all shmup companies that release so many titles get the same problem. But damn, Psikyo were doing it right off the bat! And the original concept wasn't that great to begin with. At least Cave had DonPachi, and then took it to another level with DDP, and then fiddled with the formula with ESP and Guwange, and even had that weird title Dangun(which was cool).
I see refinement. Leading up to almost any great shooter. Not that DonPachi is great (another step towards... DOJ), but have you played V-V? A game I'd much rather play than DonPachi. Psikyo started with the VS formula. Sengoku Ace is a refinement of those games. The big differences between Psikyo and Cave as I see them:

-Psikyo's refinements were more cautious and almost always made for a more enjoyable game. The only thing I can't figure out is why they kept bouncing between 3 & 4 random stages. For Cave, they are more about swapping out scoring systems. This makes their games seem more individual.

-Psikyo was not good at diverging from their formula. Their experiments (Sol Divide, Pilot Kids) include their worst games, while I think Cave's experiments (Guwange) are their best.

And I think Psikyo's graphics go unappreciated around here. Both Cave and Psikyo have largely uninteractive background graphics. Cave's, like everything else they do, are just louder. It demands attention like their most aggressively shitty soundtracks. But how many memorable looking stages and bosses do they have? Very little stands out for me.

There is a Super Nintendo effect with Cave graphics. They look bright and cartoony even when they should look dark and menacing. Dragon Blaze pulled this off a lot better. That boss that EOJ posted is cool looking and it looks like the player bombed immediately since the pattern is that frightening. Cave is at their best when it just looks like they are lifting straight from Dogyuun.

As awesome as Dragon Blaze is, I'm kind of glad that was their last vertical scrolling shooter. Where could they go? Smaller and smaller hitbox + more and slower bullets. Keep going like that and you get Cave games. Kind of like the Touhou dead end Cave is in.

What really pisses me off though is the large number of home ports these bozos have.
Argh, arcade shooters getting home ports. ARGH. Absolutely one of the stupidest comments I've seen on this board.

Rob, I always enjoy seeing your reaction to my Psikyo disrespect.

I don't know what V-V is.

When I play Psikyo games, I feel like they do have just simple patterns that sorta splatter bullets at you, and then you fight a boss. Repeat. For years.
And their games certainly aren't ugly, but they don't look that great. Compared to their direct competition(Cave, Raizing, Treasure(a bit unfair, I know)) they look even less appealing. Hell, I think 19xx has a better look than most Psikyo games.
There's a difference between refinement, and repeating yourself. And most shmup companies do repeat themselves, but Psikyo didn't change enough things in enough of their games to make a real noticable difference. Hell, even their side scrollers played the same.
Let's take Battle Garegga and Soukyugurentai for instance. Yes, they are made by different main programmers, but you can sorta tell they're by the same company. But there's a lot of difference between the two.
DoDonPachi and Guwange are obviously by the same guys, but there's a lot of noticable differences. You're not always playing the same game over and over.
The only game that I have played of Psikyo's that I genuinely felt like there was enough of a difference to actually say "hey, they aren't rehashing themselves" was Zero Gunner 2, which wasn't that bad actually.

That port comment just comes from frustration. Don't take it to heart.

s/m

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:19 pm

evil_ash_xero wrote:The only game that I have played of Psikyo's that I genuinely felt like there was enough of a difference to actually say "hey, they aren't rehashing themselves" was Zero Gunner 2, which wasn't that bad actually.

Getting a little tired of repeating this stuff, but once more for old times sake.

Sol Divide and Pilot Kids -- two side-scrollers unlike their verts
Gunspike -- an arena shooter/beat 'em up
Space Bomber -- single-screen with the enemy grabbing & different scoring system
Zero Gunners -- tilt/rotation

I also want to include Gunbarich here since it isn't a crappy fighting or mahjong game and has some elements of their shooters. The only real dud is maybe Pilot Kids. Haven't really played it. Making something like an arena shooter when no other arcade developer was doing anything like it was a pretty cool thing.

Soukyugurentai was another lock-on shooter when there was already the Ray-series. Yeah, Raizing has variety. Yet the only games to get any real praise are Garegga and Batrider.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:31 am

Frederik wrote:
captpain wrote:Is it really that bad? I have noticed that GB2 kicks my ass more than most games (survival-wise, though I guess survival is a big part of Psikyo games) in the first 5 levels or so, maybe it's because of that...
What affects it? Survival? Bombing? I never collect excess powerups, I use maybe one or two for each life.
IIRC in GODs superplay of GB2 he hovers over bosses and keeps bumping into them to power down, then waits for the three popcorn enemies to appear and give him a powerup (during a phase where he dismembered the boss enough to do this quite safely). I THINK the did that to keep the rank down.

No, he did it for points. I highly doubt any pattern in the first round fazes him when he never bombs in the second round and even has the nerve to milk the 2-7 boss' final pattern for a few more points.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:18 am

BTW, I'm apparently one of the few that thoroughly enjoys both Psikyo and Cave. I like both styles and play both companies' best efforts frequently.

I am too, despite how this topic may sound.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:19 am

NTSC-J wrote:
No, he did it for points. I highly doubt any pattern in the first round fazes him when he never bombs in the second round and even has the nerve to milk the 2-7 boss' final pattern for a few more points.

He did it just to get a few points off those 3 extra little drone ships? Is it really worth it?

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:21 am

henry dark wrote:
NTSC-J wrote:
No, he did it for points. I highly doubt any pattern in the first round fazes him when he never bombs in the second round and even has the nerve to milk the 2-7 boss' final pattern for a few more points.
He did it just to get a few points off those 3 extra little drone ships? Is it really worth it?

If you're going for the highest possible score, yes. It's not like he was in any danger .. he could probabally do it in his sleep at that point.

NTSC-J · Post by **NTSC-J** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:43 am

henry dark wrote:
NTSC-J wrote:
No, he did it for points. I highly doubt any pattern in the first round fazes him when he never bombs in the second round and even has the nerve to milk the 2-7 boss' final pattern for a few more points.
He did it just to get a few points off those 3 extra little drone ships? Is it really worth it?

This is why that run is the world record (for Aine at least). He gets any measly points he can.

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:29 am

I dunno what this thread is all about, but stop hatin' on Psikyo and start playin' Cannon Spike.

nash87 · Post by **nash87** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:34 pm

agreed, blasting robots as a random street fighter or darkstalkers character on rollerblades is the best

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 am

I do love me some Cannon Spike... if only the character selection were more balanced >_<

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:22 am

evil_ash_xero wrote: I don't know what V-V is.

V-V is one of Toaplan's later shmups. Sort of a proto-dodonpachi with R-Type style pods. Was localized for the US as Grindstormer. The original game has a Gradius like power up bar and the Grindstormer version has instant power up pick ups.

Here is a video of the Genesis port in V-5 mode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmu8pEooO4o

Video of arcade in what looks like Grindstormer mode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI1wGHHWPXo

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:26 am

V-V's a decent game, especially if you like those chunky Toaplan sprites as I do.

Unless I'm mistaken, MAME has no sound though.

Mortificator · Post by **Mortificator** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:17 pm

That's correct. You could try the Genesis port if you really want the music. The 16-bit console doesn't have the muscle for "arcade perfect," but it's not bad. Lets you choose between V-V and Grind Stormer modes too.

I just blast some music in the background to the MAME version.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:59 pm

Rob wrote: Soukyugurentai was another lock-on shooter when there was already the Ray-series. Yeah, Raizing has variety. Yet the only games to get any real praise are Garegga and Batrider.

Yeah, well Psikyo's best known game is a rip-off of 1942.

Oh, and that loli game. Which plays exactly the same as it.

s/m

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:26 am

evil_ash_xero wrote: Yeah, well Psikyo's best known game is a rip-off of 1942.

Yeah, if you have these games standing side by side you really can´t see any difference. I mean, they both have WWII planes in them!

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:30 am

Frederik wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote: Yeah, well Psikyo's best known game is a rip-off of 1942.
Oh no, WWII planes. RIPOFF!

Oh come on, it's more than that.

Hell, even the name of the game is a nod.

But anyway, I just don't like their games, so i'm probably coming across overly negative. But hey, if there are posters who can piss all over masterpieces like Ikaruga(ooh, it's too popular, critics like it, and it's too much like a puzzle game), well then, I will gladly piss all over Psikyo too. Only fair.

But to act as if they had variety(oh, a sidescroller) other than Zero Gunner 2, is untrue. And to say that their games were groundbreaking in any way shape or form is just not true.
Sengoku Blade is to..well, all of Psikyo's output, as Progear is to most of Cave's games. Same game, different viewpoint.

I mean, I have never...NEVER seen a company repeat itself in the way Psikyo have. It's nuts.

s/m

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:58 am

evil_ash_xero wrote:But anyway, I just don't like their games, so i'm probably coming across overly negative. But hey, if there are posters who can piss all over masterpieces like Ikaruga(ooh, it's too popular, critics like it, and it's too much like a puzzle game), well then, I will gladly piss all over Psikyo too. Only fair.

Two wrongs don't make a right :3

A_Civilian · Post by **A_Civilian** » Fri Dec 19, 2008 2:50 am

Let's see...

CPU tends to screw you over with things that shouldn't, beat you with the stupidest combos at times, has excessive self-drawing ablilty...

Wait, you guys aren't talking about the Mahjong games.

Right, the plane games...they repeat alot, but they somehow try to make it look a bit different every time. Basically between manic and traditional, so it's all good.

Eh......go Psikyo icon.