The problem with Psikyo games

[captpain]

Mars Matrix graphics aren't all hand drawn... Whenever I play Mars Matrix I throw up in my lap

[Rob]

I like how ugly it is, reminds me of Mega Drive.

[Frederik]

It IS pretty ugly indeed, but it has a certain chunky appeal. I also love the ship design. And you can´t beat the gold cubes in terms of shininess!

[lynchesque]

I also love the ship design.

^

[Udderdude]

I like how ugly it is, reminds me of Mega Drive.

It's like playing through one of those cheezy mid-90's 'virtual reality' videos with poser level pre-rendered graphics.

How could you possibly go wrong?

[J-Manic]

Oh, and did I mention how much it sucks to start back at the beginning of the last stage everytime I die?

Icycalm blows recap every time you credit feed.

Oh yeah? Well, it still sucks.

[TLB]

elegant patterns.

I love this pattern

:lol:

I made it the wallpaper on my phone.

[Kollision]

IMO Mars Matrix trumps any of these Cave games out there easily.

[agustusx]

Sengoku Ace? ohh thats right those are horizontal, i shouldn't bring those up. The first one was vert, but that wont leave us much to talk about.

[toaplan_shmupfan]

I've only played Strikers 1945 in the arcades and also on the PSOne (usually in Original 1 mode), but I have noticed two potential issues with the shot patterns.

Issue #1: The pattern is avoidable, but it's just extremely fast in terms of shot speed and/or time between the next barrage of shots. For these patterns, I am finding that the tap direction is often a diagonal up/left or up/right direction, if seen in time.

Issue #2: The pattern is unavoidable. That is, if the plane can remain outside of the shot pattern area then it will not be hit. However, if the plane is ever caught in the shot pattern area then it does appear that there is no way to dodge certain shot patterns.

[Kollision]

Last week I was able to loop Strikers 1945 on the Saturn (original mode). And yes, I agree, the patterns get very difficult towards the end of the game.

One thing I noticed about Strikers 1945 II, however, is that it's a lot more difficult than the first game. A lot. Gaps to maneuver inside patterns are smaller, and bullets travel even faster. So far I have to rely on bombing a lot more than I did in Strikers 1945.
I feel I'm gonna need a lot more practice to loop this one.

[captpain]

Last week I was able to loop Strikers 1945 on the Saturn (original mode). And yes, I agree, the patterns get very difficult towards the end of the game.

One thing I noticed about Strikers 1945 II, however, is that it's a lot more difficult than the first game. A lot. Gaps to maneuver inside patterns are smaller, and bullets travel even faster. So far I have to rely on bombing a lot more than I did in Strikers 1945.
I feel I'm gonna need a lot more practice to loop this one.

Wait till you get to 1945 III...

[FRO]

I like how ugly it is, reminds me of Mega Drive.

It's like playing through one of those cheezy mid-90's 'virtual reality' videos with poser level pre-rendered graphics.

How could you possibly go wrong?

Exactly. Love the Ruby Rod avatar, btw

My biggest beef w/ Psykio games is that the combination of "aimed bullets" and slower patterns sometimes get in the way of each other, and make maneuvering through some levels quite difficult. I've owned Strikers 1945 II (Saturn) for 6-7 years now, and can still barely make it past level 3 on a single credit. Same w/ Gunbird 2 for Dreamcast - depending on which character I choose, I *might* be able to crack my way into stage 3, otherwise I'm usually swamped. I think their shmups got more balanced as time went on - Dragon Blaze is a good example of one that's not so incessantly difficult that you want to repeatedly bang your head against the wall.

[Arvandor]

That's odd, I find Gunbird 2 to be MUCH easier than Dragon Blaze. I can pretty consistantly get to stage 5 in Gunbird 2 now, but I rarely make it past stage 4 in Dragon Blaze. Also, I find Gunbird 2's stage 5 to be much easier than Dragon Blaze's. Can't comment on either game beyond those points ^_^

[Zweihander]

Touhou games are at least fun, partially due to the ridiculous scoring mechanics and over-the-top boss fights, though they're hardly challenging until you play the Extra Stage or Lunatic Mode.

Psikyo-wise, I've enjoyed Strikers 1945 II and Zero Gunner 2. Everything else just feels like a complete rehash of a rehash of a rehash. Dragon Blaze's detachment gimmick was fun, though, and playing as Morrigan in Gunbird 2 was god-tier, so I guess you could say I enjoyed those too.

[moozooh]

Touhou games are at least fun, partially due to the ridiculous scoring mechanics and over-the-top boss fights, though they're hardly challenging until you play the Extra Stage or Lunatic Mode.

Very challenging if you start playing for score. Suddenly you need to take risks you wouldn't have otherwise, and score-breaking mistakes come pouring in. ;\

[Rob]

I rarely make it past stage 4 in Dragon Blaze. Also, I find Gunbird 2's stage 5 to be much easier than Dragon Blaze's.

Use dragon shot a lot more.

[Arvandor]

I use it almost exclusively until stage 5... I pay particular attention to big targets that need to eat dragon shot to die faster and not make me hate life, kind of like meleeing things in Gunbird 2 (only I dragonshot a crapload more, since I don't have a meter).

[Zweihander]

Touhou games are at least fun, partially due to the ridiculous scoring mechanics and over-the-top boss fights, though they're hardly challenging until you play the Extra Stage or Lunatic Mode.

Very challenging if you start playing for score. Suddenly you need to take risks you wouldn't have otherwise, and score-breaking mistakes come pouring in. ;\

I always play Imperishable Night for score, and it still doesn't get remotely challenging until stage 4 or 5. I'll hand it to Perfect Cherry Blossom though, while the stages are usually pretty easy for me, some of the earlier bosses are prone to fucking me over now and then. Especially that cat-girl boss on stage 2... some of her patterns are sinister.

elegant patterns.

Yes, CAVE is no match for the brilliantly designed Psikyo patterns:

One is disgustingly sparse.
The other is just plain disgusting.

Can you guess which is which?

[evil_ash_xero]

I think I've figured out my problem with Psikyo games.

...is that they were made in the first place.



Seriously though, the biggest problem is the "sameness" of all their games. And yeah, I know, all shmup companies that release so many titles get the same problem. But damn, Psikyo were doing it right off the bat! And the original concept wasn't that great to begin with. At least Cave had DonPachi, and then took it to another level with DDP, and then fiddled with the formula with ESP and Guwange, and even had that weird title Dangun(which was cool). After that their games have been less experimental to the point where they're kinda samey, but they didn't do it right off the bat, and the starting point was a good one.

What really pisses me off though is the large number of home ports these bozos have. In terms of the 32 bit era. these guys had quite a few of their games brought to the Saturn, while Raizing only had 3, while Cave only had 2. That's what angers me the most. Ah well, it's all over now anyway.

s/m

[moozooh]

I always play Imperishable Night for score, and it still doesn't get remotely challenging until stage 4 or 5.

I'll be happy to see your scores here, then. ;)

[evil_ash_xero]

Mars Matrix graphics aren't all hand drawn... Whenever I play Mars Matrix I throw up in my lap

Mars Matrix has good gameplay. Interesting stuff. Ugly as hell.

s/m

[Mode7]

You have to admire Psikyo. Specifically, you have to admire the lean economy and cruel efficiency with which they can end you. Sure, Cave throws 500x the number of bullets on screen, but most of that is noise. Give Psikyo that same pattern and they will:

a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice

Yes they're evil bastards, and yes they want your quarters. But you have to give them credit for being good at it.

Why would you have to give developers credit for doing the easiest possible thing they can do?

No. Just, no.

Think of it like sumi-e painting. The masters can capture the essence of their subject matter in just a brief series of brush strokes. Far from being easy, it requires a great degree of skill to be able to accomplish this with style and grace.

Illustrated:


Style and grace.


Not so much *


* I stole this off a therapy website and am going to hell.

[Limbrooke]

I rarely make it past stage 4 in Dragon Blaze. Also, I find Gunbird 2's stage 5 to be much easier than Dragon Blaze's.

Use dragon shot a lot more.

A shit load more. The big difference between GB2 and DB is you can actually do well in terms in scoring in DB while GB2 is very much the opposite. Finding the gem heads, coin chaining, and not getting swamped make it a far more difficult game I think. I happen to find Stage 5 much easier in DB than the Stage 4 iteration than any of the opening stages so on one hand it is somewhat hard. Some things move quick but in general because you can dragon shot a lot Stage 5 because it never changes makes it a real breeze. GB2 might be a bit more flexible because it has 3 random opening stages instead of 4 but I think the bosses in GB2 are far more brutal than DB. Stage 5 onward in GB2 is a real chore. DB can actually be fun until the loop while GB2 never seems to get there because of strict scoring and hard bosses.

...is that they were made in the first place.



Seriously though, the biggest problem is the "sameness" of all their games. And yeah, I know, all shmup companies that release so many titles get the same problem. But damn, Psikyo were doing it right off the bat! And the original concept wasn't that great to begin with. At least Cave had DonPachi, and then took it to another level with DDP, and then fiddled with the formula with ESP and Guwange, and even had that weird title Dangun(which was cool). After that their games have been less experimental to the point where they're kinda samey, but they didn't do it right off the bat, and the starting point was a good one.

What really pisses me off though is the large number of home ports these bozos have. In terms of the 32 bit era. these guys had quite a few of their games brought to the Saturn, while Raizing only had 3, while Cave only had 2. That's what angers me the most. Ah well, it's all over now anyway.

s/m

If anyone is to blame wouldn't it be Atlus? Atlus handled all the Strikers home ports while did nothing for Cave which is odd considering both companies were handled by Atlus in the arcades. This hardly matters since the ports are generally never on par with the arcade games, back then anyway. I'd say the best of the lot would the be 3 Raizing/8ing ports so what is there to complain about?

People should be thankful Psikyo exists as it's a step up from the work at Video System, there's a company that's stuck in rut. I have no problems with any later work of Psikyo (ZG2, DB, S1999, etc..) and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[BulletMagnet]

* I stole this off a therapy website and am going to hell.

You should probably sig that.

[Icarus]

The problem with comparing Psikyo to sumi-e is that sumi-e is stylish, inspiring, and visually striking.
Psikyo... isn't.

[captpain]

You have to admire Psikyo. Specifically, you have to admire the lean economy and cruel efficiency with which they can end you. Sure, Cave throws 500x the number of bullets on screen, but most of that is noise. Give Psikyo that same pattern and they will:

a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice

Yes they're evil bastards, and yes they want your quarters. But you have to give them credit for being good at it.

Why would you have to give developers credit for doing the easiest possible thing they can do?

No. Just, no.

Think of it like sumi-e painting. The masters can capture the essence of their subject matter in just a brief series of brush strokes. Far from being easy, it requires a great degree of skill to be able to accomplish this with style and grace.

Illustrated:


Style and grace.


Not so much *


* I stole this off a therapy website and am going to hell.

And it's not accomplished with style or grace.

Simple pattern + high speed + several times.

I mean, if they are graceful and stylish, then so is Donkey Kong. It kills you with ruthless efficiency too, it's just a little less visually striking.

I really don't buy that Psikyo patterns are hard for experienced professional game programmers to come up with, either.

[Arvandor]

The bosses in Gunbird 2 may be harder, but I find them quite doable (even the 5th boss isn't much of a chore anymore, gogo memorization patterns, though I rarely make it that far), but the stages in Dragon Blaze are a crapton more difficult. You'd think as an excessive Cave player it'd be the other way around, but it's not. The only trouble I have with Gunbird 2 stages are turrets with limited aiming paths =/ That shit always confuses me.

Another problem with me and Dragon Blaze is failed tech bonus attempts

Note: Let it be known that my problem with Psikyo games isn't that they're too difficult, it's that they're difficult for the wrong reasons, and the bullet patterns aren't as exciting to dodge. Also, they're still up there in my top 4 developers or so =) It's not like I hate Psikyo, just... realized why I don't like them more than I do, and thought I'd spawn a discussion out of it.

[Rob]

The bosses in Gunbird 2 may be harder, but I find them quite doable (even the 5th boss isn't much of a chore anymore, gogo memorization patterns, though I rarely make it that far), but the stages in Dragon Blaze are a crapton more difficult.

Wait until you 1-life it to the stage 5 boss. Memorization won't be enough. Rank is more severe in GB2.

[Davey]

The bosses in Gunbird 2 may be harder, but I find them quite doable (even the 5th boss isn't much of a chore anymore, gogo memorization patterns, though I rarely make it that far), but the stages in Dragon Blaze are a crapton more difficult.

Wait until you 1-life it to the stage 5 boss. Memorization won't be enough. Rank is more severe in GB2.

Can you manage rank? I got frustrated with GB2 because the better I got at the early levels, the harder the later ones got. All I was doing was shifting my bomb usage from earlier levels to later ones; no real progress.