I've played all of their shooters (I think), and I think that what you wrote can be applied to Gunbird 2 only.Arvandor wrote:I think I've figured out my problem with Psikyo games.
I was playing Gunbird 2 earlier, got farther than I ever have, and when some absurdly difficult (read: absurdly difficult the first time you see it) boss pattern got sprayed at my face (instantly killing me, of course), it didn't induce any sense of panic at all. I found this a bit odd, and it got me thinking...
I think Psikyo and Touhou have opposite causes of the same problem. Where touhou patterns are so slow moving that it feels sedate and boring, even when it's difficult; Psikyo patterns are so fast and memorization based that when I see a new one (especially at max rank), it's so completely impossible to dodge on reaction, that I don't even feel the desire to try, and as such, it doesn't get the blood pumping at all. Feels kind of sedate and boring. Makes me feel more apathetic than anxious.
Discuss, flame on, l2p, get reflexes, lock if needed, etc.
The problem with Psikyo games
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henry dark
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Re: The problem with Psikyo games
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PROMETHEUS
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17" is perhaps a bit small but personally I play on a 19" and it doesn't make any difference in playing performance when I flip it to tate. It feels nicer, but I don't play any better at all. Most of the time I play in yoko because it's a pain in the ass to keep a monitor just to play STGs or to flip a monitor every time I want to play one.Arvandor wrote: Hmm, true, I'm playing on... I think it's a 17" (maybe 19") monitor un-flipped. I'll try flipping it and see what happens.
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escadrille
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kengou wrote:If you have to panic bomb to survive a pattern,
No, silly. Obviously you can't often chain at your best when using GHBs, but you can use them and keep the chain, sometimes even making it easier to keep the chain (lv 4). Not an incredibly useful ability, but you can use them without loss. You just have to think carefully about when to use them. Much better than automatic punishment for using them at any time.Arvandor wrote:So add bombing to the list.
...
It just increases your odds of both chain breaking AND dying simultaneously. It's riskier than it is helpful.
The reflect mosquito already offers much more leeway with survival, so that's another part of the appeal to me-
chaining is tough, survival not as much. If I want to play a game focused mostly on survival, I choose everyone's favorite (Psikyo). Dying multiple times does not necessarily mean the end of a scoring run. But you still can't screw up on level 3.I find the chains easier to keep in DDP as well.
It would appear that while you like your survival games strict and memorization-heavy (Psikyo), and your scoring systems looser and less punishing (Psikyo/Takumi), I'm just the opposite. I like my survival games loose and less punishing (Cave... sorta... with some games), and the scoring systems strict and memorization heavy (Cave minus ESPgaluda).
It's Psikyo. That's all there is to it.nimitz wrote:Care to explain why?Icarus wrote:Regarding topic: Dragon Blaze was the second-most painful week of my STGT history. nomltest takes first place.
Correct, and as a recommended first step for beginners towards learning the game, I still stand by that comment.nimitz wrote:Concerning Garegga I read somwhere (maybe it was form you Icarus) that you should be comfortable playing up to stage 5 with no problem without worrying about rank before trying to score. Garegga can be really enjoyable for low/mid level play if you simply ignore rank.
Learn to crawl before walking, etc.
You have taken the next step towards mastery of the Force, young padawan.Frederik wrote:It took me quite a while to realize it´s never score OR survival, scoring must built on the basis of being consistent survival-wise.
Scoring and survival, contrary to popular belief, are intertwined. But as a simple rule of thumb to adopt for all games you play, you should always develop survival techniques first before scoring techniques.
You have to admire Psikyo. Specifically, you have to admire the lean economy and cruel efficiency with which they can end you. Sure, Cave throws 500x the number of bullets on screen, but most of that is noise. Give Psikyo that same pattern and they will:
a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice
Yes they're evil bastards, and yes they want your quarters. But you have to give them credit for being good at it.
a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice
Yes they're evil bastards, and yes they want your quarters. But you have to give them credit for being good at it.
OMG, HE HATH RETURNED!Mode7 wrote:You have to admire Psikyo. Specifically, you have to admire the lean economy and cruel efficiency with which they can end you. Sure, Cave throws 500x the number of bullets on screen, but most of that is noise. Give Psikyo that same pattern and they will:
a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice
Yes they're evil bastards, and yes they want your quarters. But you have to give them credit for being good at it.
Yeah, Psikyo and Cave do operate on opposite ends of the design spectrum. I still can't really enjoy their games for various reasons though - over-simplification, lack of real scoring depth, near-undodgeable attacks. Which is odd, because when it comes to fastbullet games, I prefer Seibu, which is similar in design in many respects, and yet does it a billion times better.
Why would you have to give developers credit for doing the easiest possible thing they can do?Mode7 wrote:You have to admire Psikyo. Specifically, you have to admire the lean economy and cruel efficiency with which they can end you. Sure, Cave throws 500x the number of bullets on screen, but most of that is noise. Give Psikyo that same pattern and they will:
a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice
Yes they're evil bastards, and yes they want your quarters. But you have to give them credit for being good at it.
You think that's easy? Never designed a bullet pattern, have you?captpain wrote:Why would you have to give developers credit for doing the easiest possible thing they can do?Mode7 wrote:You have to admire Psikyo. Specifically, you have to admire the lean economy and cruel efficiency with which they can end you. Sure, Cave throws 500x the number of bullets on screen, but most of that is noise. Give Psikyo that same pattern and they will:
a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice
Yes they're evil bastards, and yes they want your quarters. But you have to give them credit for being good at it.
Players are quite slippery bastards, faking them out and making them accidently twitch into a stray bullet isn't very easy
Last edited by Udderdude on Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BulletMagnet
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Yeah I can imagine. Still though, if I was a professional developer...Udderdude wrote:You think that's easy? Never designed a bullet pattern, have you?captpain wrote:Why would you have to give developers credit for doing the easiest possible thing they can do?Mode7 wrote:You have to admire Psikyo. Specifically, you have to admire the lean economy and cruel efficiency with which they can end you. Sure, Cave throws 500x the number of bullets on screen, but most of that is noise. Give Psikyo that same pattern and they will:
a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice
Yes they're evil bastards, and yes they want your quarters. But you have to give them credit for being good at it.
Players are quite slippery bastards, faking them out and making them accidently twitch into a stray bullet isn't very easy
...I could handle this.a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice
If you aren't handled someone else's (very nice, in the case of CAVE) bullet patterns to modify, it gets even harder, of course.captpain wrote:Yeah I can imagine. Still though, if I was a professional developer...Udderdude wrote:You think that's easy? Never designed a bullet pattern, have you?captpain wrote: Why would you have to give developers credit for doing the easiest possible thing they can do?
Players are quite slippery bastards, faking them out and making them accidently twitch into a stray bullet isn't very easy...I could handle this.a) identify which bullets are going to fuck you each and every time
b) boost the rate of fire by a factor of a bunch
c) have the pattern go off twice
You could probabally do that right now with that BulletML thing, if you wanted.
So go ahead and make some of your own patterns. Show us how it's done. Hell, if you can out-do a commercial company with developers that have been around for decades, I'll be pretty impressed.captpain wrote:Well I just mean that a lot of the late game Psikyo patterns are just simple patterns shot super fast with one little variation that will smack into you... and then it happens again. Cave makes much more elegant patterns.
Haha, why are you arguing with me? Are you trying to prove the point that it's hard for professional arcade game developers to kill a player in a video game? What are you even doing? Fucking lord.Udderdude wrote:So go ahead and make some of your own patterns. Show us how it's done. Hell, if you can out-do a commercial company with developers that have been around for decades, I'll be pretty impressed.captpain wrote:Well I just mean that a lot of the late game Psikyo patterns are just simple patterns shot super fast with one little variation that will smack into you... and then it happens again. Cave makes much more elegant patterns.
My problem with Psikyo shmups is that I like using bombs much more than those attacks you do when you hold down the Shot button. I always forget about those attacks when I'm busy rapid shooting enemies while dodging/maneuvering thru fast bullet patterns. Therefore, I tend to die a lot.
Oh, and did I mention how much it sucks to start back at the beginning of the last stage everytime I die?
Oh, and did I mention how much it sucks to start back at the beginning of the last stage everytime I die?
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themachinist
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