The problem with Psikyo games

[Rob]

And yet you like the scoring system in Mars Matrix. It's just as anal-retentive and exponential as the Cave systems.

You can actually fail a lot and do alright, because it doesn't punish you for anything other than major chaining screw ups (stage 3). There is no punishment for using an occasional GHB. There are no bonus points for lives in stock.

I pay more attention to the EXP in Mars Matrix, since it seems like a more accurate gauge of how well I'm doing and nothing is subtracted from it.

I can see what you mean Rob but I wonder if high level Psikyo play still requires that perfection anyway...

Us non-replay watchers are probably all more interested in low to mid level play 'cause that's where we're at. Every additional point over my previous high feels hard earned in a Psikyo game. This is lost a bit in huge multiplier games.

[Taylor]

The touhou bullets are not only slower, but emphasise this even further by bouncing around the screen for the first 20 seconds of the pattern to look pretty before deciding to go down to the bottom of the screen to kill you. Aimed fire is also relatively rare meaning even when the pattern does get down to your end of the screen you’re only doing a few taps to get through. You can’t compare this directly to Cave simply because they both have slower bullets than a game with bullets so fast it requires some psychic ability.

[Rob]

ESPGunbird

vs.

ESPRai.Den.

[Arvandor]

You can actually fail a lot and do alright, because it doesn't punish you for anything other than major chaining screw ups (stage 3).

So add bombing to the list. Or dying on stage 3 (and the worst hit doing that is to the decrease in rank and not getting as many bullets to cancel in the middle section). I find the chains easier to keep in DDP as well. And funner to keep going, since it involves blowing shit up

There is no punishment for using an occasional GHB.

It just increases your odds of both chain breaking AND dying simultaneously. It's riskier than it is helpful.

There are no bonus points for lives in stock.

Chainbreak = fail

I don't think there are bonus points for lives in stock in Dodonpachi either (there are in ESPgaluda, but that game is easy anyways, and has an awesome scoring system), just no-miss bonuses at the end of each stage (and dying on stage 2 only deprives you of the stage 2 no-miss bonus).

Every additional point over my previous high feels hard earned in a Psikyo game. This is lost a bit in huge multiplier games.

This is actually a good point ^_^ It always plays with my mind when I get close to beating my current 2-3 record when I'm only on stage 1-5. Something like that isn't really possible in a Psikyo game (unless you go from playing normally to power-down boss milking or something). Though, this argument works against Mars Matrix too imho. Score improvements don't feel as hard earned in this one either.

As a general rule, scoring systems suck. There's no debate to be had.

The more I think about it the more I think I'm inclined to agree. The only game I can think of off-hand that has a scoring system I don't hate or find flawed in one way or another is ESPgaluda, and even then there's probably something about it I don't know that would bother me if I did know about it.

[320x240]

My beef with both companies games is that placing such an emphasis on bullets that they do (yes, even Psikyo) prevents me from seeing who my enemies actually are. I don't want to fight bullets, I want to fight large, cannon laden Vehicles of Doom or giant, tentacled Monsters From Another Dimension. What do Psikyo and Cave give me? Puny little Orbs of Discontent? I want a clean fight, not someone that is out to 'trick' me.

From a design viewpoint, Caves games, especially the latter ones (from what I can see), are already halfway towards being abstract shmups. Tohou takes this one step further. There is absolutely no need for background or foreground graphics in a Tohou game.

[escadrille]

I just don't get the sense of dread, the adrenaline rush,

See, I just don't get this part of the thread. You've got patterns rushing by almost like actual bullets, at barely manageable speeds - that's not a rush? Seriously?

This is exactly my question about this thread. Though Psikyo is probably my favourite developer, so obviously I have different tastes than Arvandor.


I don't think first exposure to any of these bosses is necessarily "unfair" but the design does demand bombing at certain points.

[moozooh]

I don't think there are bonus points for lives in stock in Dodonpachi either (there are in ESPgaluda, but that game is easy anyways, and has an awesome scoring system), just no-miss bonuses at the end of each stage (and dying on stage 2 only deprives you of the stage 2 no-miss bonus).

Wrong. There are bonus points for remaining lifestock at 2-ALL score tally, and dying on stage 2 (3, 4, 5, 6, 2-1, etc.) deprives you of a max bomb multiplier you've had at that point. DDP is one of the games you need to no-miss for as much as possible to have a good score.

[kengou]

I don't think first exposure to any of these bosses is necessarily "unfair" but the design does demand bombing at certain points.

If you have to panic bomb to survive a pattern, it's not a very fair pattern, it should give you some small amount of time to try to figure it out and get through it, if a big mass of bullets is shot out at you in an explosion and there's no chance of dodging it by skill but requires either safe-spotting it or bombing, I call that unfair.

edit: I am terrible with the quote button apparently

[jonny5]

have you ever played any cave titles without ports/mame Rob?

try playing some ketsui and newer cave titles...believe me....ketsui is anything but slow

and psikyo games arent bad......just not as interesting as cave games....although i love a lot of there style and art....they have nice bosses for sure...

[escadrille]

I don't think first exposure to any of these bosses is necessarily "unfair" but the design does demand bombing at certain points.

If you have to panic bomb to survive a pattern, it's not a very fair pattern, it should give you some small amount of time to try to figure it out and get through it, if a big mass of bullets is shot out at you in an explosion and there's no chance of dodging it by skill but requires either safe-spotting it or bombing, I call that unfair.

First, I wrote that, not Arvandor. Second, we are talking about encountering a boss for the first time and seeing a pattern for the first time.

If using bombs offends your sensibilities there is always the option of playing the game more than once. None of these patterns are impossible to dodge with practice. I find it strange to demand that everything be dodgeable at first sight.

[nimitz]

You guys might be playing too many slow bullet games. If you have the DC version of GB2, enter the debug menu and play some 2nd round at max rank for at least 30 minutes. Try the 1st round again and you'll be in Cave heaven.

That's where I think the complains arise from. You need to be 100% focused when playing a shmup to do "well" and psikyo games punish you heavily for not being at your 100%. In a slower bullet game you can always try to wake up or raise your level of intensity.

I would say that's the biggest problem of people that do relatively poorly at Psikyo games. Those who have a tendecy to "relax their guard" are much more prone to this.

Once you got through that, you realize that the first half of 1st loop psikyo games is really easy and dumb. When you are "in the zone" the second half of these ganes do have plenty of "oh shit" panic moments...

But in the end, the harder I try to really enjoy these games the more I end up hating these later boss fights, you either bomb or memorize the safe-spots, one could argue that Cave games require as much memorization, this may be true but at least it's not as blatant.

[Dave_K.]

I know what you mean. You almost have to memorize tap/direction "combos" to dodge Psikyo patterns sometimes. I don't enjoy that very much.

This is exactly how I felt when I started playing Mushihemesama. Its all tap memorization. Original mode is probably the closest to any Psikyo game out there, yet nobody complained about that because its Cave.

[BulletMagnet]

To be fair, Mushi gives you a smaller hitbox than any Psikyo game I can think of, so dodging "off the cuff" is easier than it is in any of the latter's products (some even declare that mode to be overly easy and forgiving, though I can't say I ever had that issue with it, heh heh) - you are correct, though, in labeling it as very Psikyo-esque and more memory-oriented than most any other Cave product.

The thing is, while, as you say, with some fans Cave can do no wrong, with other players they're damned if they do, damned if they don't - despite the frustrations present in that mode, if they hadn't included it, they'd have been vilified even more than they were for "never doing anything different." I certainly didn't hear anyone bringing up the "memorizing what happens over 20 minutes isn't that hard" defense for it.

[Andi]

My beef with both companies games is that placing such an emphasis on bullets that they do (yes, even Psikyo) prevents me from seeing who my enemies actually are. I don't want to fight bullets, I want to fight large, cannon laden Vehicles of Doom or giant, tentacled Monsters From Another Dimension. What do Psikyo and Cave give me? Puny little Orbs of Discontent? I want a clean fight, not someone that is out to 'trick' me.

From a design viewpoint, Caves games, especially the latter ones (from what I can see), are already halfway towards being abstract shmups. Tohou takes this one step further. There is absolutely no need for background or foreground graphics in a Tohou game.

I'm with you on this. I'm much more into games where I'm dodging enemy formations. I guess I'm just old fashioned like that. Although enemy dodging seems to be much more in the territory of horizontal shooters rather than vertical.

[Limbrooke]

Dangun... beg[s] to differ.

Fixed although DDP3 and Fever SOS are actually enjoyable.

As a general rule, scoring systems suck. There's no debate to be had.

They add longevity to the games ^_^ And with many shooters, if you don't like them, you're free to ignore them. Games where you can't ignore them (ie: Radiant Silvergun or Battle Garegga) lose huge points with me. Battle Garegga would easily be one of my favorite games if scoring wasn't so damn important to game completion.

I'd like to refer you to exhibit A for Garegga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjaunQC1_t8

You're also not alone when it comes to unhappiness related to Gunbird 2. I believe its hard in pretty much all facets compared to the rest of Psikyo fare (pardon Zero Gunner Expert) so I would just give up the ghost and move on. However, if you stick at it, I believe it is one the best practice games around due to the difficulty and in the long run this can really pay off. For more flexibility Dragon Blaze and Strikers 1999(to a greater extent) are waiting for you.

[Icarus]

Battle Garegga would easily be one of my favorite games if scoring wasn't so damn important to game completion.

I'm surprised that in this day and age, with all that is available for the game, people are still spreading misinformation about it.
You'd be somewhat right if instead of "scoring" you said "rank", but even then there are easy ways to deal with the most basic elements of the rank system.
And scoring in Garegga is a leisurely walk in the park, compared to something like Bakraid or Great Mahou. "Get medals" and "bomb stuff" isn't difficult to remember.

Regarding topic: Dragon Blaze was the second-most painful week of my STGT history. nomltest takes first place.

[captpain]

Battle Garegga would easily be one of my favorite games if scoring wasn't so damn important to game completion.

I'm surprised that in this day and age, with all that is available for the game, people are still spreading misinformation about it.
You'd be somewhat right if instead of "scoring" you said "rank", but even then there are easy ways to deal with the most basic elements of the rank system.
And scoring in Garegga is a leisurely walk in the park, compared to something like Bakraid or Great Mahou. "Get medals" and "bomb stuff" isn't difficult to remember.

Regarding topic: Dragon Blaze was the second-most painful week of my STGT history. nomltest takes first place.

Something is appealing about the scoring systems in Raizing games. From just playing the games, you'd have no idea how totally differently you need to think to bring the score counter up. That makes it harder to dislike the scoring systems, because you just have to accept that the games are going to force you to reinterpret them. I think what's blocking me from seriously getting into them is the boss milking, though.

Dragon Blaze is a vertical scrolling hack and slash. They should have remembered to make the shot important for scoring too.

[Icarus]

I think what's blocking me from seriously getting into them is the boss milking, though.

Boss milking is an expert technique, not just in Raizing but in any shooting game that, in my opinion, is not totally necessary for players to worry about. Many beginning and intermediate players make the common mistake of thinking that it is necessary to boss-milk to raise their score when in actuality this kind of technique is a final refinement process, and there are tons of other ways of improving your score in-game.

Learn to crawl before you walk; learn to walk before you run; learn to run before you go and buy a Ferrari and wrap it around a lamppost.

[captpain]

I think what's blocking me from seriously getting into them is the boss milking, though.

Boss milking is an expert technique, not just in Raizing but in any shooting game that, in my opinion, is not totally necessary for players to worry about. Many beginning and intermediate players make the common mistake of thinking that it is necessary to boss-milk to raise their score when in actuality this kind of technique is a final refinement process, and there are tons of other ways of improving your score in-game.

Learn to crawl before you walk; learn to walk before you run; learn to run before you go and buy a Ferrari and wrap it around a lamppost.

11 million points from the first boss in Bakraid is a refinement process ?

But yeah, it seems that way mostly... Especially in Garegga, which I'm trying to learn right now. It's way too much to try to boss milk at this point, and the costs far outweigh the benefits at my skill level.

[Icarus]

11 million points from the first boss in Bakraid is a refinement process ?

No, that's a scoring technique, and a very difficult one at that. Boss-milking, via definition, involves things such as chipping away at Black Heart's wings instead of the main fuselage (in Garegga), or milking the drones that appear during Leviathan's first form (in Bakraid).

But yeah, it seems that way mostly... Especially in Garegga, which I'm trying to learn right now. It's way too much to try to boss milk at this point, and the costs far outweigh the benefits at my skill level.

That's why you don't use the trickier scoring techs until you have a working route through the game nailed. Like I said here and in other threads, many players make the mistake of trying to work too many techniques into their run at once, and then wonder why they seem to do worse. Refine your stage routes and boss attacks first, then start adding more complicated and difficult methods in, and score increases will start to come from there.

[captpain]

Oh, don't worry, I'm following your lesson plan from the Garegga ST thread

[lilmanjs]

to me all of the Psikyo games are the same. they don't try to do much different. just because its a different setting doesn't mean you get to make the same game. I like game companies that don't have boss patterns that are way too fast and you feel like there's nothing you can do and get bored and pop some other game in. Psikyo games just feel all the same to me after a while with the exception of the Zero Gunner series.

[Frederik]

Learn to crawl before you walk; learn to walk before you run; learn to run before you go and buy a Ferrari and wrap it around a lamppost.

I like that.

One of the moments I realized that there is little point in playing for score if I still suck bad at survival was Ketsui Death Label, where all the neat tricks I did were pointless because I kept dying all over the place, which made my multiplier drop much more than any of these scoring tricks added to it. Same with Batrider: If I keep my bombs for tricky parts instead of bombing the shit out of everything in the first level already, my score will go up automatically from surviving much longer alone. There really is no point to trigger all secret bosses with three different ships if I can´t even 1cc Advance with a standard ship.

It took me quite a while to realize it´s never score OR survival, scoring must built on the basis of being consistent survival-wise.

[Drascin]

I think Psikyo and Touhou have opposite causes of the same problem. Where touhou patterns are so slow moving that it feels sedate and boring, even when it's difficult; Psikyo patterns are so fast and memorization based that when I see a new one (especially at max rank), it's so completely impossible to dodge on reaction, that I don't even feel the desire to try, and as such, it doesn't get the blood pumping at all. Feels kind of sedate and boring. Makes me feel more apathetic than anxious.

I personally would describe Touhou more as "relaxing" than "boring". The whole hypnotic abstract patterns thing helps. I play Touhou when I want to have some fun without tensing myself.

Of course, thing is, I'm a very laid back person. I have trouble getting nervous, so those games are right up my alley. I can have very fast reflexes in particular moments (I have beat almost every 2D megaman game, after all - you don't beat those if you don't learn to jump at the right split-second), but I just can't "keep on guard" so to say, and I inevitably end up messing up in most fast shmups. Ah well

[jpj]

Alt+Z

[FIL]

The problem with Psikyo games is that they're too awesome.

[jpj]

are they dead now, or what?

[FIL]

The Psikyo name still exists I think, but its just a logo that X-nauts stick on games.

As a developer they are dead, the last Psikyo game actually made by Psikyo was 5 years ago.

[lgb]

touhou is like almost getting hit by a lava flow. CAVE is like almost getting hit by a slightly faster lava flow.

DOJ and Dangun both beg to differ.

Embodiment and Sub-T say hi.

[nimitz]

Regarding topic: Dragon Blaze was the second-most painful week of my STGT history. nomltest takes first place.

Care to explain why?
-because of the bosses tech bonuses?
-because of all the dragon shot memorization?
-because of the later levels?
...Dragon Blaze is the Psikyo game I enjoy the least.



Concerning Garegga I read somwhere (maybe it was form you Icarus) that you should be comfortable playing up to stage 5 with no problem without worrying about rank before trying to score. Garegga can be really enjoyable for low/mid level play if you simply ignore rank.

It took me quite a while to realize it´s never score OR survival, scoring must built on the basis of being consistent survival-wise.

SWY said that he always starts by clearing a game before actually scoring. You need to at least be able to finish a game before you can master it.