The problem with Psikyo games

[Arvandor]

I think I've figured out my problem with Psikyo games.

I was playing Gunbird 2 earlier, got farther than I ever have, and when some absurdly difficult (read: absurdly difficult the first time you see it) boss pattern got sprayed at my face (instantly killing me, of course), it didn't induce any sense of panic at all. I found this a bit odd, and it got me thinking...

I think Psikyo and Touhou have opposite causes of the same problem. Where touhou patterns are so slow moving that it feels sedate and boring, even when it's difficult; Psikyo patterns are so fast and memorization based that when I see a new one (especially at max rank), it's so completely impossible to dodge on reaction, that I don't even feel the desire to try, and as such, it doesn't get the blood pumping at all. Feels kind of sedate and boring. Makes me feel more apathetic than anxious.

Discuss, flame on, l2p, get reflexes, lock if needed, etc.

[Dale]

My problem is I want a panic bomb to come out and like.......protect in some form or another. They always fuck this up, at first I thought it was because ether bullets are so fast but not really.

[captpain]

I know what you mean. You almost have to memorize tap/direction "combos" to dodge Psikyo patterns sometimes. I don't enjoy that very much.

I still think Gunbird 2 is a really pretty and enjoyable game, I just don't think I'll ever get serious enough to try to 1cc it. Same with the others.

[SockPuppetHyren]

I agree with you. As bad as I am at Touhou games, I never remember panicking that often. Mostly at the last two bosses, but after seeing them one or two times, they lose some of their edge. This is a stark contrast to when I'm playing DDP, where I panic and bomb at the first sight of something that's not a tank.

I felt the same way when I was playing GB2. When I died, I didn't feels any sort of fear or loss. I just went "Hm. I died." And that was that.

I like both games a lot, but they don't give me that "OMG I'M GONNA DIE!" feeling as much as other games do.

[nimitz]

It's all about the way you play the game if you are only slightly "laid back" when playing a shmup you wont panick: you'll simply die. It doesnt matter if the bullets are slow or fast. Though, the pacing of a game plays a big role to keep you in an "active" state.

The better I get at shmups, the least I enjoy psikyo games, not because the bullets are too fast or because the pace is bad, but because memorizing safe spots isn't really fun to me.

That being said, the 2nd loops of psikyo seem to be alot more fun.

[Rob]

I think Psikyo and Touhou have opposite causes of the same problem.

Looks like different causes of different problems. Not sure how you can like Cave so much and think Touhou is far too slow and sedate. Should be every Cave fan's second faves.

absurdly difficult the first time you see it

Play a second time. Remembering a whole 15 minutes of game is not hard.

[Rob]

memorizing safe spots isn't really fun to me.

That being said, the 2nd loops of psikyo seem to be alot more fun.

What the.

When I died, I didn't feels any sort of fear or loss.

Try to dodge, usually adds some pressure.

[nimitz]

memorizing safe spots isn't really fun to me.

That being said, the 2nd loops of psikyo seem to be alot more fun.

What the.

I haven't seen/played that much of 2nd loop psikyo. But for the actual levels even if you use your charge attacks at the right spots you still have to actually dodge bullets and patterns(Strikers II comes to mind).

For the bosses, if im not mistaken they die as fast so it's about as bad as the first loop...

Its the levels that make it "seem" better.

[Arvandor]

Not sure how you can like Cave so much and think Touhou is far too slow and sedate. Should be every Cave fan's second faves.

I'm not sure whether this is proof of your severe ignorance of Cave games, of Touhou games, or of both. But dang man, just no.

I felt the same way when I was playing GB2. When I died, I didn't feels any sort of fear or loss. I just went "Hm. I died." And that was that.

I like both games a lot, but they don't give me that "OMG I'M GONNA DIE!" feeling as much as other games do.

Yeah, this is how I felt too. There's too little of a gap between the percieved threat and death. In most shooters the process is something like: Pattern starts, I can SEE how difficult the pattern is going to be for me to weave through and properly see gaps, pattern arrives and I get to start wing-it dodging, I can see how poorly/well I'm doing, feel the imminence of death or the possibility of lucky success, and either panic bomb, try to luck it through, or die, and THEN I die. It's all very exciting and gets me all worked up. With Psikyo it's like bulletsohshidead. Or bulletstaplefttaprightbulletsgone. When you DO make it through Psikyo patterns, there's no sense of satisfation at having dodged through a tricky pattern... They're far too here and gone.

Psikyo rips the band-aid off too quickly. Doesn't leave you any time to think about the pain you're experiencing ^_^

[Rob]

But for the actual levels even if you use your charge attacks at the right spots you still have to actually dodge bullets and patterns(Strikers II comes to mind)

Eh, this stuff is still hard and requires plenty of dodging in either round, even with the occasional safe spots, because it is fast. The patterns in Strikers 2 & Gunbird 2 have a lot more movement than early Psikyo games, so you can't often just sit in one spot and wait. The patterns are switched up quickly and they (bosses) take up about a third of the level time.

You guys might be playing too many slow bullet games. If you have the DC version of GB2, enter the debug menu and play some 2nd round at max rank for at least 30 minutes. Try the 1st round again and you'll be in Cave heaven. Something like Raiden is far more guilty of this ("bulletsohshidead"), in large part because the stages are so long and checkpoints.

Have you tried Dragon Blaze, Arvandor? Lots of slow.

[kengou]

For me it's the unfairness factor. The first time you play a psikyo game it's all but impossible to make it through the game on skill. The patterns are just pure memorisation of the safe spots. There's not a whole lot of fun dodging those things. The lack of a movement-slowdown button only exacerbates the problem in many situations too.

It's not just a matter of fast bullets versus slow bullets, either. Dangun Feveron or DOJ have pretty fast bullets and patterns but they still feel a lot more fair than most psikyo games even when they're harder games overall.

Also Touhou has very little in common with Cave. Just...no.

[Arvandor]

Oh yes, I love Dragon Blaze ^_^ Easily my favorite Psikyo game. Dragon Blaze still has some Psikyo pacing issues though, where the boss patterns aren't at all persistant, and are too bursty, so to speak. I prefer 5-10 second patterns to the shotgun bursts of Psikyo games. It's either "Oh crap! Oh I'm safe," or "Oh crap! Gah, I died." There's no "Oh shit oh shit oh shit oh shit I can make ah come on WOO / DAMNIT!"

In fact, I like Gunbird 2 alot as well, despite my rantings. I just don't get the sense of dread, the adrenaline rush, OR the sense of accomplishment from Psikyo games that I do from other shooters. They just don't give you enough time to really "feel" like they're trying to kill you. Each pattern is over before any such feelings have time to sink in, you know?

Maybe it's a lack of grey area with Psikyo games. Either you know how to dodge a pattern and can do so, or you can't, and don't. There's no fudging your way through a diffuclt but nearly doable on a good day patterns. Instead of trying to see the gaps in the pattern, and being able to react to them accordingly, I'm just sitting there thinking "do I sit still, tap, or wiggle for this one? Let's guess and see what happens." It's like rock-paper-scizzors with bullet patterns.

The lack of a movement-slowdown button only exacerbates the problem in many situations too.

Eff that, I'd rather have a button to INCREASE speed in Gunbird 2. Some of those boss patterns would be way easier with a faster ship. It's part of why I find Dangun Feveron so enjoyable. The balance between ship and bullet speed feels much better. Hitbox size plays a factor as well. If you were to somehow calculate bullet speed, ship hitbox, and ship speed to show "effective" gap sizes in patterns; I'd be willing to bet money that Psikyo gaps would prove to be MUUUCH tighter.

[Rob]

The patterns are just pure memorisation of the safe spots.
...
The lack of a movement-slowdown button
...
Dangun Feveron ... a lot more fair ... even when they're harder games overall.

Sigh. Late, but winning effort for worst thread of the year. My favorite is how they have to be more difficult, even if they are "more fair" (slow enough to improvise on first play).

Also Touhou has very little in common with Cave. Just...no.

Yeah, those bullet hell loli games w/ crappy scoring systems are all so different.

[Arvandor]

Yeah, those bullet hell loli games w/ crappy scoring systems are all so different.

Well with those kind of prerequisites for being effectively the same game, you may as well just come out and admit that Dodonpachi = Mars Matrix. Because they sure as shit have more in common with each other than with any Touhou game.

[Rob]

I just don't get the sense of dread, the adrenaline rush,

See, I just don't get this part of the thread. You've got patterns rushing by almost like actual bullets, at barely manageable speeds - that's not a rush? Seriously?

They just don't give you enough time to really "feel" like they're trying to kill you. Each pattern is over before any such feelings have time to sink in, you know?

The patterns have a way of making time slow down, you just have to adjust, and they can be stressful as anything (in a bad way and in an adrenaline rush way). Some of those patterns make me feel like I almost got hit by a car and doing that over and over is not too healthy. Cave is like almost getting hit by a lava flow.

[320x240]

I like Psikyo better than Cave. It's actually the slow, small bullets that gets me in their games. I like games where I react to an imediate threat instead of anticipating where the biggest threat will be in x seconds. The later levels of Dragon Blaze is a bore to me.

I fail to see that there is more memorization in Psikyo games than in Cave games, if you want to master them. I can see that Cave games invite the player to experiment more. They have a different dynamic.

On a serious note. This really comes down to being an alpha-male or a nerd.

Take your pick.

[Arvandor]

See, I just don't get this part of the thread. You've got patterns rushing by almost like actual bullets, at barely manageable speeds - that's not a rush? Seriously?

I'm not sure how I can articulate it so that you'd understand. They're TOO fast and hopeless to give that sense of rush. It pushes straight past exciting all the way to apathetic. It's just "BAM! You're dead." Without that strand of hope that there's some small possibility you'll make it through, the excitment just isn't there.

It'd be much more exhilirating, for example, to see a train coming at you at 50mph, just in time for you to jump out of the way and survive, than it would be to see a land-speed record setting jetcar coming at you at 500mph where your only hope of ever jumping out of the way was to know it was there in the first place. You're dead before you have time to panic.

Cave is like almost getting hit by a lava flow.

No... Cave is more like getting hit by a thrown javelin. Not quite stupid absurd speed, but not lava flow either. Touhou is the lava flow of which you speak.

The later levels of Dragon Blaze is a bore to me.

Where the speed of the bullets becomes more Psikyo-like? Well, the boss patterns anyways. I guess the later Dragon Blaze stages ARE very Cave-esque in how to survive through them.

On a serious note. This really comes down to being an alpha-male or a nerd.

Take your pick.

I hate to break it to you, but given the nature of the forum we're posting on, there's really only one option here -_^ Clearly you just haven't consigned yourself to your fate.

[Rob]

than it would be to see a land-speed record setting jetcar coming at you at 500mph where your only hope of ever jumping out of the way was to know it was there in the first place. You're dead before you have time to panic.

Sounds like the lasers. If you've made it to the lasers, the hardest part of the sixth boss is over. You can do it, Arvandor.

[lgb]

Cave is like almost getting hit by a lava flow.

No... Cave is more like getting hit by a thrown javelin. Not quite stupid absurd speed, but not lava flow either. Touhou is the lava flow of which you speak.

touhou is like almost getting hit by a lava flow. CAVE is like almost getting hit by a slightly faster lava flow.

[captpain]

Yeah, those bullet hell loli games w/ crappy scoring systems are all so different.

I just hope you haven't convinced yourself that Psikyo games have good scoring systems.

[themachinist]

Anyone else hate medal collecting "when it's most shiny"? I'm not so smooth at it.

[lgb]

As a general rule, scoring systems suck. There's no debate to be had.

[Arvandor]

Sounds like the lasers. If you've made it to the lasers, the hardest part of the sixth boss is over. You can do it, Arvandor.

Actually... I haven't. I think you underestimate my suckitude at shooters. I think I've been to stage 5 ONCE. I can consistantly make it to the stage 4 boss, but rarely manage to beat him.

I wish I could tell you how much time I put into the game to even get to this point, but for some reason all the settings on my Wolfmame got entirely vamped recently (maybe my flash drive is dying?), so I honestly have no idea. Not more than 10-20 hours, but with all the other shmuping experience under my belt you'd think I could do better with that much time on a game. Especially one where primary focus is survival, and panic-bombing isn't discouraged (two of the things I DO enjoy about Gunbird 2).

touhou is like almost getting hit by a lava flow. CAVE is like almost getting hit by a slightly faster lava flow.

DOJ and Dangun both beg to differ.

As a general rule, scoring systems suck. There's no debate to be had.

They add longevity to the games ^_^ And with many shooters, if you don't like them, you're free to ignore them. Games where you can't ignore them (ie: Radiant Silvergun or Battle Garegga) lose huge points with me. Battle Garegga would easily be one of my favorite games if scoring wasn't so damn important to game completion.

[Rob]

They are not the focus, but a solid addition in later games (starting with Gunbird 2). I think smaller, unrelated technical bonuses are better than the game-defining scoring systems of Cave games. It's too make or break.

@capt

[Rob]

but for some reason all the settings on my Wolfmame

I think this might be a big part of your problem right here. MAME. Unless you have some setup with a larger rotated monitor, the bullets are going to seem much faster and more unmanageable on a small screen. 20" monitor at least.

[Arvandor]

And yet you like the scoring system in Mars Matrix. It's just as anal-retentive and exponential as the Cave systems. Breaking chain is just as detrimental to your score (if not moreso), and it requires just as much memorization. The only real difference, is that there's slightly more freedom to be had during the parts that don't matter (IE where chains are free anyways, figuring out how to get even more out of it.

Hmm, true, I'm playing on... I think it's a 17" (maybe 19") monitor un-flipped. I'll try flipping it and see what happens. The main reason I haven't tried it on my Dreamcast yet is because my Dreamcast is currently hooked up to a VGA monitor, and we all know Gunbird 2 is one of those damn games that isn't compatible.

I need to get my dad to build me some kind of brace or something for me to set my 32" LCD in so that I can flip it safely. Like a TV easel if you will.

[captpain]

I can see what you mean Rob but I wonder if high level Psikyo play still requires that perfection anyway... I mean you'd still have to be more or less flawless to be a high scorer, even if the overall gap in points isn't as big as in DoDonPachi, for instance. I honestly don't know though because I don't watch as many replays or read as much about them. It's got to be harder to ruin runs though.

As far as the simple preference in immediate gameplay, it just boils down to which type of dodging gets you going. The "shock" feel of Psikyo patterns is certainly something different.

Hmm, true, I'm playing on... I think it's a 17" (maybe 19") monitor un-flipped. I'll try flipping it and see what happens. The main reason I haven't tried it on my Dreamcast yet is because my Dreamcast is currently hooked up to a VGA monitor, and we all know Gunbird 2 is one of those damn games that isn't compatible.

Oh man, you really need to play tated because it's worlds different on a smaller computer monitor.

[Necronopticous]

The problem with Psikyo games is that they're widely underappreciated and underrated.

Additionally, Cave games and Touhou "games" are nothing alike. Average bullet speed over an entire series of games is a laughable comparator.

[nash87]

There's one psikyo game that doesn't have this "problem." And by "problem" i mean: super-fast-murder-death-spray pattern. This game would be cannonspike / gunspike. It just doesn't have this problem. The only murder-spray in the game is on the final bosses final form. there is slowdown during this murder-spray unlike others though, unless my dreamcast just has issues. I've never seen slowdown in any psikyo game, and lets face it, it would be nice if there was some here & there. But if there was slowdown the "problem" would no longer be there...

[Arvandor]

Well, I flipped the monitor, and while it certainly helped a little bit, it didn't change my complaints with the game.

I also decided to do some savestate practicing to see if I couldn't figure out the 4th stage boss. I mostly did... Then I tried the 5th stage boss. First form got easy enough quick enough, but the first pattern of the second form is what I REALLY hate about Psikyo games...

I shouldn't have any right being able to dodge this pattern. The bullets are so fast, that even when I can dodge through it without thinking about it, I can't see the path through the bullets that I'm taking. It's just "tap once here, and again here, safe." I can dodge that pattern 100%, eyes closed using audio clues, and probably be better off than if I'm watching (the bullets are only confusing with that many at that speed). If I try to "see" my way through the pattern, I can't, no matter how many times I run it. But... tap tap safe. Dumb... as... hell.

The worst part, is that without savestate practice, I don't even want to think about how long it would have been before I figured that out. I probably would have just bombed it. Every... single... time. Any pattern where you HAVE to bomb or die unless you know the tap-timing, especially that early in the game, is utter fail. Not fun to dodge, not stressful, just confusing.

Maybe I just don't have the reflexes for Psikyo games. I'd hate to give that too much thought, however, as I consider myself having above-average reflexes. I'll just end up depressing myself =P