Interesting Parallel. (Pixar and Treasure)

[Specineff]

Some of you know my utter disgust with Disney and their churning of sh*t-ass sequels as of late. (I have seen your chains, Eisner. They are twice as long and heavy as those meant for Ebenezer Scrooge.) You know, Peter Pan 2, Stitch, Pocahontas 2, Lady and the Tramp 2, Hunchback of Notre Dame 2 ( I think this one got cancelled. It seems like someone had the guts to say it was not a good idea to begin with.), etc.

Pixar brought a breath of fresh air to Disney. Most of their movies Pwn Disney's previous attempts (minus Lilo and Stitch) at making a decent movie. Original stories, well-written plots, interesting characters and a damn fine job with everything they create, not forgetting the awesome CGI graphics.

Reminds you of someone else? (Minus the well-written stories, that is.)

Treasure branched off Konami because they were sick of churning out TMNT, Contras, Castlevanias and such. And most of their games have been a breath of fresh air for us starved old-school gamers. (Don't tell me that Wario World for Cube sucks.) And don't get me started about how they try to squeeze the most of the system they develop for. (at least on the 16 and 32 bit machines.)

Pixar is leaving Disney soon, from what I hear. They don't need the mouse company, but Eisner's empire does need Pixar, IMHO. (I hope Chicken Little bombs. Eisner said he wants the company to make CGI movies only from now on. Heh, good luck, Mikey.)

Could it be that maybe in a few years Disney will call Pixar to make a sequel for one of their franchises, just like Konami asked Treasure to develop Gradius 5? (I'm just being silly here, but who knows.)

Opinions?

[roushimsx]

Pixar is leaving Disney soon, from what I hear. They don't need the mouse company, but Eisner's empire does need Pixar, IMHO. (I hope Chicken Little bombs. Eisner said he wants the company to make CGI movies only from now on. Heh, good luck, Mikey.)

Could it be that maybe in a few years Disney will call Pixar to make a sequel for one of their franchises, just like Konami asked Treasure to develop Gradius 5? (I'm just being silly here, but who knows.)

Opinions?

What basically happened was Eisner got greedy and Jobs told him to go fuck himself. Pixar wanted to increase the amount of money they were getting paid since they realized that they were pretty much the sole reason Disney made any money anymore (go to Disneyworld sometime and count how many rides/attractions are based off of Pixar creations. Nearly everything built there within the last decade). Eisner thought they were bluffing, called them on it, and Pixar came through and said that after their 5 picture deal they were bolting. Sucks that Disney is retaining the rights to all of the Pixar creations (Bug's Life, Toy Story, Incredibles, Cars, Nemo) and they plan on churning out their own sequels (Toy Story 3 is already being worked on). Who wants to bet that it'll be roughly on par with Aladdin: Return of Jafar or Lion King 1 1/2?

Can't wait to see what Pixar does on their own. It's doubtful, but I sincerely hope they crush the unholy shit out of Disney in the long run (for that to happen, they're going to need some serious marketing $$$ because the average joe schmoe doesn't know who Pixar is).

If you're interested in a good anti-Eisner book, check out Disney War. You'll laugh. You'll cry. You'll hate Eisner far more than you ever thought possible.

[BulletMagnet]

Can't wait to see what Pixar does on their own. It's doubtful, but I sincerely hope they crush the unholy shit out of Disney in the long run (for that to happen, they're going to need some serious marketing $$$ because the average joe schmoe doesn't know who Pixar is).

Despite my prevailing pessimistic nature I'm a bit more hopeful about their future...I think that separating from Disney might well be a great thing for Pixar, in terms of the quality of their movies. Heck, look at The Incredibles: it broke from the usual Disney doldrum of "outcast trying to fit in and eventually finding his place" (in fact, it outright rebels against it in many ways, since the heroes are persecuted by the majority for being who they are), and it resulted in arguably their finest effort to date (imo). Imagine what they'd be able to do when completely liberated from Disney: this could well be to computer animation what anime once was to hand-drawn stuff (before it became "the norm" as it is now, anyways). We might finally be able to shake the Western dogma that animated works can only cover subject matter that appeals to children or the like, and I definitely hope it happens. Though, as always, we'll hafta wait and see...

[alpha5099]

they're going to need some serious marketing $$$ because the average joe schmoe doesn't know who Pixar is).

You sure about that? Maybe I haven't been talking to the right people, but it seems to me that everyone knows who Pixar is. They definitely have a distinctive style, and, Spec is right, they've made the only good Disney movies since The Lion King. They've made a damn fine name for themselves, Pixar is a name that holds swing. They'll do just fine.

[WarpZone]

Treasure branched off Konami because they were sick of churning out TMNT, Contras, Castlevanias and such.

This is just a somewhat popularized, but inaccurate, myth. According to SFKosmo's credit listings, Treasure employees had only worked on a couple Contras and Castlevanias- spread as thinly as one different team member for each. There's no record that they worked on any TMNT game either, despite magazine articles often saying otherwise.

I don't want to be a spoil-sport, though. I still get the gist of what you're saying in the comparison.

[jp]

I thought Eisner was leaving?



At any rate, I can definitely see the comparisons, and I think Pixar will go on to be very successful.


Disney... eh... The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe looks spectacular. If Disney keeps pulling out stuff like that(which they will since they're doing the entire series) they may not be in as deep shit as most seem to think they will.

[benstylus]

Hunchback of Notre Dame 2 ( I think this one got cancelled. It seems like someone had the guts to say it was not a good idea to begin with.), etc.

Nope. It got released. Anyone seen it and care to comment on whether it's as wretched as it looks?

Amazon link

[Nuke]

It's a Christmas special

[CMoon]

Completely share your feelings about Pixar and Disney Specineff.

Honestly though, it isn't just Eisner, although he's made shit a lot worse (check out Roy Disney's attempt to get Eisner out of Disney!) Disney has been churning out SHIT for a long time, and I think it is in part because animation is so very terribly expensive that they feel they 1) can't take any risks and 2) must precisely cater to their demographic, appealing to everyone (at the expense of telling a good story).

Subsequently, for decades we've seen Disney unwilling to try much of anything new, and when they do it is only by a small degree; meanwhile, even when they do have good stories, it seems some comittee designated to make the story fit a series of criteria chop and slice the script to bits; regurgitating the pulp/fodder that every single Disney movie has for a plot.

The old saying that if you try to please everyone you'll end up pleasing no one applies well to Disney. The only reason Lilo and Stitch was good is because the film was essentially made 'below the radar' and never went through the slice&dice process of script immasculation.

Disney doesn't just suck because they are stupid (firing their animators?); rather they suck because they are incapable of telling a good story--and Pixar CAN! And clearly, the audience can tell the difference. Nearly every pixar film has been uber-successful, while Disney's films have been doing pretty poorly for well near a decade--people are sick of it.

[CMoon]

Oh, felt like backing some of this up:

Here are grosses in the US, I'm using the last week recorded. This is clearly not precise, but the magnitude of difference in financial success should be obvious.

Monsters inc.: $255,870,172
Brother Bear: $85,329,248
The Incredibles: $261,437,578
Home on the range: $50,026,353
Finding Nemo: $339,714,367
Lilo & Stitch: $145,771,527
Toy Story 2: $245,823,397
Treasure Planet: $38,120,554
Emperor's New Groove: $89,296,573
Tarzan: $171,085,177

How reliable all this info is I'm not sure since IMDB shows Lion King only making $15 million, where Toy Story from only a couple years later grosses nearly $200 million--the $15 million is clearly wrong since Lion King is one of the highest grossing animated films ever.

But clearly the more recent figures are indicative of the problems that Disney has had, and you simply must ask the question--why can't Disney (for the most part) break $100 million gross in the US on an animated film while Pixar can consistantly break $200 million if not $250 million?

I really do think Lilo & Stitch gives us a good clue since it had a great story that was un-neutered by the Disney heads. Audiences all over the world always have and always will appreciate a good story. This didn't keep Eisner from firing all his animators on the grounds that clearly the 100 million spread between his films and pixar's was that pixar was using computer animation.

The emperor may be wearing no clothes, but the emperor is also dumb as shit.

[roushimsx]

According to BoxOfficeMojo, Lion King pulled in over $312 million domestic. No idea where the $15mil came from *shrug*

[CMoon]

According to BoxOfficeMojo, Lion King pulled in over $312 million domestic. No idea where the $15mil came from *shrug*

Thanks man, here are worldwide grosses from the site you gave:

Finding Nemo: $864,625,978
Tarzan: $448,191,819
The Incredibles: $631,436,092
Lilo & Stitch: $273,144,151
Monsters Inc.: $525,366,597
Brother Bear: $250,397,277
Toy Story 2: $485,015,179
Home on the Range: $103,951,461
Treasure Planet: $109,578,115
Atlantis: $186,053,725
Emperor's New Groove: $169,327,687
Mulan: $304,320,254
Toy Story: $361,958,736
Lion King: $783,841,776

OK, I'll stop there. Basically, you can see Pixar consistantly pulling in around 400 million or higher, even exceeding the ludicrous $783 million Lion King pulled in with Finding Nemo.

Not to be a number geek, but this is so telling. Disney has definitely been wanting to have a repeat of Lion King for a long time, now to be severely upstaged by their little computer animation subsiderary.

*more than 400 million appears red.

[BulletMagnet]

According to BoxOfficeMojo, Lion King pulled in over $312 million domestic. No idea where the $15mil came from *shrug*

Maybe that was just the brief re-release, and not the original one?

[landshark]

Please Konami, churn out more 2D castlevanias. No more 3d crap.

And as for TMNT? I love these games ... never played the battle nexus one though as I heard really really bad things about it.

[Shatterhand]

When Disney closed it's traditional animation studio, they said that "CGI was the future". In their minds, they probably thought that Pixar movies were sucessful just because they were made in CGI.

Lilo & Stitch, obviously, proves how wrong this is.

[neorichieb1971]

Disney always had the tools and the resources to make great movies.

It is corperate America that is to blame for Disney and in some cases why people leave companies to form other companies.

For example. Eisner has to report to share holders, they want profits...So they milk franchises to give the share holders what they want, profits!

Another example, Konami do not allow total freedom to its staff to make whatever they want to make. It is well documented that Treasure consists of lots of ex Konami employees, Game paradise a Jaleco production was also made by ex Konami employees who were never given creative freedom to make that game.

SOTN sold quite well in the USA, at least 250k copies were sold. It sold quite well in Japan also. Yet the series went 3D as it became fashionable to 3Dise everything.

Same with CGI, its fashionable today. But eventually it will lose its grip.

And the reason Pixar are leaving Disney is purely on DVD rights. See, pixar movies never leave the digital domain when converted to DVD. Pixar create the DVD themselves right from begining of designing the story board scripts, animated shorts and such. Then they transfer the movie bit for bit to the DVD format. Disney does nothing excepts puts their name on the cover and expected huge royalties. When Pixar opposed to this, Disney did not back down. Therefore Pixar went looking for another partner.

I agree, why pay Disney millions in DVD royalties when they did nothing for it?

[alpha5099]

And the reason Pixar are leaving Disney is purely on DVD rights. See, pixar movies never leave the digital domain when converted to DVD. Pixar create the DVD themselves right from begining of designing the story board scripts, animated shorts and such. Then they transfer the movie bit for bit to the DVD format. Disney does nothing excepts puts their name on the cover and expected huge royalties. When Pixar opposed to this, Disney did not back down. Therefore Pixar went looking for another partner.

I agree, why pay Disney millions in DVD royalties when they did nothing for it?

Not only that, but Disney is totally back asswards when it comes to their DVD publishing practices. Every fucking month, a new movie is let out of the "Disney Vault" and another is locked away, never to see the light of day again. Release the fucking movies, fuckwads! We don't have time for your stupid bullshit. I want to be able to find a copy of Toy Story on DVD. I do not want to pay ludicrous sums on eBay, all because you constantly publish ridiculously limited print runs for your own self-aggrandization. Bastards, all of them.

[CMoon]

No shit alpha. Oh well, the great news is that once Pixar leaves Disney there will be absolutely no reason to ever see a disney movie again. With all their movies going to cgi, and their future work condemned to the ik of the new Chicken Little movie, I can safely say the only film I going to be interested in seeing from Disney in the next few decades are their adult films releaseed through Touchstone and Mirimax.

Disney has at long last screwed the proverbial pooch. I wouldn't be surprised if they are declaring bankrupcy (or at least getting out of the business of making childrens' films) in the next few years.

[FatCobra]

All I gotta say is this:

It's said to see the company that fueled your imagination as a kid get corrupted and go down the dark side known as uber-suckage. I used to watch alot of Disney movies and went to Disney World many times as a child. I was there when Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea were still open.

I love Epcot though, since I love entertaining my brain (alot of the stuff is fun AND educational), and you can see alot of prototype stuff there too.

Don't forget the Monorail, that thing has always made me tingle with wonder.

But stupid Eisner had to ruins things.......

Pixar kicks ass and they will probably kick more of it since Disney is not holding them back anymore.

[alpha5099]

I was there when Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea were still open.

Whoa whoa whoa. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride isn't still there? What the fuck, that's total bullshit.

[Specineff]

Disney's rides and attractions weren't really kept to a shine, IIRC. In 1996, Both Star Tours and Captain Eo had the original posters from when they opened. All faded and yellowed.

[roushimsx]

I love Epcot though, since I love entertaining my brain (alot of the stuff is fun AND educational), and you can see alot of prototype stuff there too.

I went in August of 04 for the first time since ...well, Captain Eo opened, and it was just depressing. Epcot was run down, dirty, and packed. The fast pass system or whatever was a neat idea, but I couldn't get out of that place fast enough. Sad to see all of the great rides they had have either broken down and turned to shit or have been coverted into unimaginative me-toos. The educational stuff was semi-interesting, but a lot of the crap they had was outdated by at least 5 years.. there was some 3d flight/racing game that ran at speeds that made Vortex on the SNES look good and the whole gimmick was that ..ohh...it's a poorly-done-holographic display!

Sadly, that was the most interesting thing at Epcot. I ended up taking pictures of my Beanie Babies, Zip and Nutty, as they toured the place. I think I uploaded them... I'll look around on my site.. Got a good one of Nutty holding up a huge ballzak thing...everyone was looking at me like I was smoking crack or some shit. Good fun. Got another one of Zip and Nutty walking down a road in that Discovery thingy.

MGM was a badass park, though. Very badass. It's a shame that it's tied to Disney, and it's a shame that it's so damn small. You can cover everything in that park in half a day easily... all of the rides were way too short too (especially the Aerosmith Rock n Rollercoaster ). As cheesy as the movie classics ride was, I loved the piss out of it and rode it twice

Disney's Animal Kingdom? Pure shit. Avoid.

God, it's my bed time.. I need to crash out before I go off on a longwinded rant on how much The Magic Kingdom has gone to shit, too. Hall of Presidents? Great if it works when you go. Carousel of Progress? Breaks all the damn time and the last segment was updated so poorly that it's a parody of the original. I felt like someone was pissing in my eyesockets when I saw what they had done to it. ...guh...bed. Now.

[Shatterhand]

I can safely say the only film I going to be interested in seeing from Disney in the next few decades are their adult films releaseed through Touchstone and Mirimax.

As far as I know, Miramax is also leaving Disney. There will even been a "Director's cut" version of Kill Bill because of that, as Disney didn't let them realease the "full" version of it.

[captain ahar]

ha disney's going down.

anyway, Shatterhand touched on this already. i remember reading in the Wall street journal (i was really friggin bored) about Disneys phasing out their hand-drawn animation department to focus on CG, citing the success of Dreamworks and Pixar as a reason.

i laughed my ass of their complete lack of understanding. the only animated disney movie made in the last decade (or more) that i will still watch occasionally is the Emperors New Groove (haven't seen Lilo and Stitch, maybe i should do that). i love that movie.