Hellsinker Versions

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:20 pm

Everyone raves on about how weird and trippy and confusing Hellsinker is so I thought i'd give it a try but Shootthecore lists 2 versions, one from Dogma and one from Ruminant's Whimper.Which one am I going for then, and what's the difference?

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:30 pm

Joke review:

Hellsinker is a Touhou shooter from the Touhou genre that is a copy of the true Touhou and has many ugly mecha and ships and little on the loli side so I don't like it.

2/10 =(

Note: Dogma wasn't the circle. Dogma was a doujin fighter game that looked amazing but was never finished.

The team was, if I'm not wrong, "Circulate Blue", whose only known member seemed to be "Ranyon" (later on and thanks to the author of Diadra Empty it turns that it was just one guy doing all the coding, music, graphics, story and stuff). From there came that surreal monster called "Radio Zonde", which you should also try as Hellsinker pays homage to RZ.

This leads me to the "old" Hellsinker: an odd shooter but still quite average/normal on the graphical side that was going to be released by this old team back in 2004. You can try this old version (Vector Link) here. The music is slightly different:

http://www.vector.co.jp/soft/win95/game/se324495.html

Now, in between these four years when Circulate Blue 'disbanded' or went to oblivion, a link popped up to a new site, which is now the 'official':

http://sanagimaru.nobody.jp

Under the name of "Ruminant's Whimper" (!!!), Hellsinker finally saw the light back in Comiket 72.

It went under the radar of most people (it has a thread here though and after more than a year from the C72 release I still hold this thing in high regard) because of it's overall unfriendliness and lack of mercy for the beginners: a complex interface so damn full of bars, numbers, buttons, variables, items and stuff you have to take into account. Heaps of firing modes distributed in four characters, etc., etc.

The author played a lot with the stage structures and there are a lot of walls and obstacles, besides having quite 'active' backgrounds most of the time. One moment you are scrolling normally, then you are going into a labyrinth (Segment 5), then downwards or facing boss rushes (The Perpetual Calendar, Segment 5 boss, comes with several fellows so it's essentially a boss rush with a trick), many bosses hide surprises... And the TLB is probably one of the craziest things you'll see in a shooter, alien babies, giant phalluses and Bydo Cores aside. :p

Hellsinker started for me (the high appreciation for doujin stgs). Ether Vapor and Exception continued it, RefleX and Diadra Empty nailed it and Cloudphobia+RefRain are going to release the final epic barrage.

Selah.

Note: Yes, I'm exaggerated, please bear with me. Sometimes I can't help it

And, actually, I like Touhou when it comes to the games+official stuff. It's the most rabid fandom what... scares me.

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:52 pm

Great!Thanks for such an informed and comprehensive answer

This is one of the things I love about these forums and the internet in general: being able to communicate quickly with people who know what they're talking about....
...Are you referring to RefRain:Prism Memories, and when is the full version likely to be released?

Mischief Maker · Post by **Mischief Maker** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:53 pm

It's worth noting that the old demo is still in the final version of Hellsinker as the "Lead" version of level 1. I have no idea what triggers it, but after a while the game suddenly gives you a wall of japanese text, unlocks Kagura, changes the main menu, then gives you a branching choice of the first three levels. If you think that the sol temple is weird, wait until you hit the shrine of Farewell, a level that just happens to give you infinite lives.

People should stop wasting their time making Shanghai Alice translation patches and instead should release one for this game.

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:12 pm

mjclark wrote:Great!Thanks for such an informed and comprehensive answer This is one of the things I love about these forums and the internet in general: being able to communicate quickly with people who know what they're talking about....
...Are you referring to RefRain:Prism Memories, and when is the full version likely to be released?

Yup. RefRain is the successor of Samidare so I'm eagerly waiting for it. Only a new demo will come for C75 (Preview Version) but at the rate the game is progressing, I wouldn't be surprised to see it fully released by C76... Fingers crossed.

Mischief Maker wrote:It's worth noting that the old demo is still in the final version of Hellsinker as the "Lead" version of level 1. I have no idea what triggers it, but after a while the game suddenly gives you a wall of japanese text, unlocks Kagura, changes the main menu, then gives you a branching choice of the first three levels. If you think that the sol temple is weird, wait until you hit the shrine of Farewell, a level that just happens to give you infinite lives.

People should stop wasting their time making Shanghai Alice translation patches and instead should release one for this game.

Yep, almost four years if you count the original... I was hoping for a Kamui translation patch! That thing will soon be 10 years and still no translation!

Lemme see if I can remember. Nothing from the old Hellsinker was lost, everything was added to the new one as "Lead" stages, this goes for Segments 1 to 3. You unlock this things by progressively playing without continuing. The longer you stay alive and progress in-game, the further the stuff that will get unlocked (including Kagura, that weird flying assault armor with all the tecno awesomeness). In the original Hellsinker you had infinite continues, here you can only continue ONCE. And continuing will only give you a bad ending and you won't be able to fight the final boss. This is part of the "unfriendliness" I was talking about.

The game has a heavy story component but everything can be skipped, including all the text dialogue that appears in game if you play as Deadliar (the dude with two fairies). He talks to some of the bosses and during Segment 7 the boss (ah, Rex Cavalier!) goes into "Epic Mode" at the rhythm of some neat music.

And, yeah, the Sol Cathedral/Luna Crypt (Segment 5) is great... but the Shrine of Farewell is even better and it also has a surprise invincible boss (the Kaname Stone) if you can speed kill all the bosses.

There is also another hidden boss (Spirit Kernel from the Scarlet Queen in Segment 2 Lead, it even uses a creepy voiceclip that says "You're going to die here" or something similar, quite awesome).

If there is anything I would love to see next year is an early alpha or a screenshot of the spiritual sucessor of this thing. Considering it's done by one guy I guess we'll have to sit and wait for a while.

edit: The game has four possible menus, each one related to the story apparently.

KEEP YOUR DIGNITY.

And for those curious enough, Extra Stage 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scJ7WiJSarU

Last one: be sure to get the DX9 patch that will speed up and improve the game's performance as well as version 1.08f!

True Last one: yes, enemies explode in japanese characters, there are road signs (Yukari alert!) and other weird things.

Drascin · Post by **Drascin** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:10 pm

Observer wrote:It went under the radar of most people (it has a thread here though and after more than a year from the C72 release I still hold this thing in high regard) because of it's overall unfriendliness and lack of mercy for the beginners: a complex interface so damn full of bars, numbers, buttons, variables, items and stuff you have to take into account. Heaps of firing modes distributed in four characters, etc., etc.

Yeah, no kidding on the newb unfriendliness. I myself spent quite a while figuring out just what the hell all those bars were, where the buttons were, and the whole routes thing (I'm still not completely certain as to what those cards you choose in the beginning of the Shrine of Farewell actually mean). But once you get over that, it's an awesome game.

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:11 pm

Drascin wrote:
Observer wrote:It went under the radar of most people (it has a thread here though and after more than a year from the C72 release I still hold this thing in high regard) because of it's overall unfriendliness and lack of mercy for the beginners: a complex interface so damn full of bars, numbers, buttons, variables, items and stuff you have to take into account. Heaps of firing modes distributed in four characters, etc., etc.
Yeah, no kidding on the newb unfriendliness. I myself spent quite a while figuring out just what the hell all those bars were, where the buttons were, and the whole routes thing (I'm still not completely certain as to what those cards you choose in the beginning of the Shrine of Farewell actually mean). But once you get over that, it's an awesome game.

ORIGIN：SHRINE OF FAREWELL
UNMEMORIZED DAWNED：
UNDER THE SEAL

(english caps in Hellsinker are a constant, that's the location description)

The cards are the order of the bosses so you can pretty much pick any order you want and get rid of the hardest as fast as possible. Hints:

Kitty faces are Ninelives/Million Lives (the two nekomata girls in kimono... yes, they are that)
Hammer: Temperament NIL (blonde girl with a ridiculous ZUNhat and a hammer, has those nasty blue laser spells)
Sphere/Moon: Great Impure Al4th (strange named and strange looking girl, has that spellcard-like attack called "Strange Moon")
If you successfully beat all the bosses you will face the Kaname Stone, some sort of Stone-Like tribute that you cannot kill, only survive through its fast, nonstop attacks.

Don't you people love the wiki? I actually like the fact I don't get jack shit of the story because it covers it with a neat veil of mystery... However, according to a japanese friend, the story doesn't make much sense in japanese either! I made her translate the texts that appear when you unlock the TLB and she told me they were odd, even in the context of such a weird game

http://www40.atwiki.jp/hellsinker/pages/57.html

This page contains the names of all the Segments+sections inside the segments plus ALL the freaking text (yes, ALL!) that goes by on the Extra Stage 2. Yes, walls of text in english go up and down in the background and it's not just 10 lines but almost a hundred or so.

SEGMENT ††††††††：LAST DAWN
MOMENT OF RETURN：
CARDINALSHAFT CENTRAL

Description for Segment 8... By the way the "Cardinal Shaft" is the needle structure you see in the background Segment 3 Lead and it's, apparently, where this weird 'Total Karma Compressor System named "Garland"' lies.

lol, then they didn't want us to blabber about ThunderForce storyline.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:42 am

Mischief Maker wrote:People should stop wasting their time making Shanghai Alice translation patches and instead should release one for this game.

They aren't. They're not doing anything.

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:28 am

Ha ha-this game is so mad

I really like the way that no-one can really figure out what's going on with it, like it's just come from outer space or something but Observer's comments plus this thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=15170 are helping to make some sense of it.
Maybe the next Indiana Jones film should be based round it...

Drascin · Post by **Drascin** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:13 pm

Observer wrote:ORIGIN：SHRINE OF FAREWELL
UNMEMORIZED DAWNED：
UNDER THE SEAL

(english caps in Hellsinker are a constant, that's the location description)

The cards are the order of the bosses so you can pretty much pick any order you want and get rid of the hardest as fast as possible. Hinters:

Kitty faces are Ninelives/Million Lives (the two nekomata girls in kimono... yes, they are that)
Hammer: Temperament NIL (blonde girl with a ridiculous ZUNhat and a hammer, has those nasty blue laser spells)
Sphere/Moon: Great Impure Al4th (strange named and strange looking girl, has that spellcard-like attack called "Strange Moon")
If you successfully beat all the bosses you will face the Kaname Stone, some sort of Stone-Like tribute that you cannot kill, only survive through its fast, nonstop attacks.

Oooohhh... I see. Al4th is that annoying girl with the two big spheres next to her, right? She's by far the most annoying thing in the Shrine. I'll have to leave her for last, that way at least I make sure I can beat all the others - she always eats up so much of my time.

BTW, since you seem to be the most knowledgeable about Hellsinker here, little trivia question - do the secondary weapons and such have names? This question might seem odd, but in a futuristic RP game I started playing in two days ago I decided to homage Hellsinker when making my powerarmor, and make myself an artillery exoskeleton, baptise it "Minogame", and give it a lot of energy seekers, barrier shots, a damage aura when not shooting, and a drill headlong attack, among others. If said attacks actually had names, it'd be cool to use them as well

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:40 pm

Well, let's see. We have four characters:

Deadliar: the guy with the two fairies (half naked floating little girls whose lower half of the body is a semispherical crystal... yes, wtf) These kind of weaponry is suppossedly the "Sanagimaru Misteltoes" with:
Tobari-Maru: Following Type (Relative Position) or Solitude Type (Fixed Position)

Deadliar also has the "Spirit Condense Weapon Structure": massive charge shot that destroys stuff quickly.

Fossil Maiden: the girl with only one fairy, which can also be placed strategically on screen. Saraba-maru Misteltoe: Omni Directional Synthetic Firearm.

Minogame, the girl with red/blue eyes, doesn't have a fairy so she goes and pwns stuff on her own. Thus, she doesn't have "names" for her firing modes.

"Stand by oneself".

The best is the revived tecno-armor Kagura. Four firing modes, each one with freaking epic engrish/odd names:

KOB-075 Groom Eater "Moon Cradle (Multi-Trajectory Shell)"
KOB-065 Painkiller "Ecliptic Chariot (External Gunner)" (this mode gives you an option that works like R-Type)
KOB-0CS Promised Dawn "Infernal Sabbath (Variable Gun)"
KOB-0FS No Chaser "Xanthez (Anti-bacillus Saber)" (my personal favourite, an automatic machinegun with uber fast shooting but limited ammo (you have to stop firing to let it recharge) and a massive beam that pierces through enemies-

No "Fantasy Seal" or "Master Spark" here.

Drascin · Post by **Drascin** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:03 pm

Observer wrote:No "Fantasy Seal" or "Master Spark" here.

Aww. Oh well, I'll come up with something myself to shout when calling my attacks (a practical need for the feel of the campaign

).

And yeah, Kagura's weaponry is cool. Though I personally prefer the Infernal Sabbath Variable Gun, myself. It's spread AND concentrated fire at the same time, and you even get an acceptable melee with those energy hacksaws it pops when you hold the fire button. Why have to choose a style?

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:47 pm

Drascin wrote:
Observer wrote:No "Fantasy Seal" or "Master Spark" here.
Aww. Oh well, I'll come up with something myself to shout when calling my attacks (a practical need for the feel of the campaign ).

And yeah, Kagura's weaponry is cool. Though I personally prefer the Infernal Sabbath Variable Gun, myself. It's spread AND concentrated fire at the same time, and you even get an acceptable melee with those energy hacksaws it pops when you hold the fire button. Why have to choose a style?

You could just go for "I will give you insanity" (reference to Segment 7) =P

I liked that firing mode because that's how I 1cc'ed the game for the first time. Honestly, all the weapons and modes are interesting enough so I like most of them.

Again, for the 1k time, hoping we'll eventually see the spiritual sucessor of Radio Zonde and Hellsinker.

No love for Radio Zonde? In that game the enemies hate you so much that they'll still attack you during the credits.

Mischief Maker · Post by **Mischief Maker** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:16 pm

I know this is going to sound petty, but I can't stand RZ because the sprites -especially bullet sprites- are so tiny that it's hard to spot gaps. Hellsinker solved this problem and gets all my love. However, tiny sprites aside RZ is insanely awesome.

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:50 pm

OK-I'm just getting into this now but what's the "Terra" bar in the lower left hand corner of the screen all about?

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:49 am

mjclark wrote:OK-I'm just getting into this now but what's the "Terra" bar in the lower left hand corner of the screen all about?

Terra and the Coin amount determine when are you going to face the Shrine of Farewell. The more you die and get owned, the more you time out bosses, the worse it'll get and you'll end up in the Shrine before Segment 6, which usually leads to a big bad ending.

There are only two moments in the game where you can recover Terra in big quantities. But it'll keep decreasing as you progress in the game and when it reaches zero, crack, Shrine of Farewell here we go (the ideal moment is either after Segment 7 or before Segment 7):

1) Segment 3 Behind, those squid-like enemies. If you hit them with a charge shot or the secondary weapon (or I think it was hit them long enough), they will release MASSIVE chains of terra items (those spherical shiny/crystal things).

2) The Perpetual Calendar's last spell/attack: "Kareidoscope". It's quite difficult to trigger this if you don't know what you are doing. You have to destroy all the options of the boss and avoid destroying it before it switches from "Astrolabium" to "Kareidoscope". When it switches, the background will go crazy, four big options will come out from the Perpetual Calendar and rotate around, then it'll fire multidirectional lasers. You can "Seal" the center and try to destroy the big options. If you succeed, the screen will shake and go "FATE CONTROL - TERRA" in nifty letters and effects. My jaw dropped when I saw it. You can repeat it till it times out (bad idea though) or you defeat it (good idea, and see how crazy the screen goes!).

Quite a light show if you ask me, one of the most wicked and coolest bosses ever.

Also, Old Rose (if you pick the Sol route of Segment 5) is the final boss of Radio Zonde. If you pick the Luna route you'll fight Saint Mouve. These are also the first 'human' (more like memories) enemies you'll meet if I'm not wrong and if you don't count the secret boss of Segment 2 Lead.

ZOM · Post by **ZOM** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:00 am

Wow. The more I read observer's posts about this game, the more awesome it gets. I think this must be THE deepest doujin STG in terms of story AND gameplay there is!

Observer - good job on pushing my interest for this game higher than it already was before.

Aisha · Post by **Aisha** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:07 am

I've been sitting on this game for a few years now and never really made any serious attempts at trying to understand it, because it just seems so unapproachable. But between this thread, the wiki, the GD, and some replays, it's starting to come together.

So I guess I'll add to the interrogation of Observer.

1) Are there any visual cues that let you know when your Sol/Luna/Sub Weapon gauges fill up, or do you have to keep glancing over to the left? I don't really see any cues myself, but I just want to make sure.

2) As I play I see words appear over my character, such as "Appeasement," "Solid State," "Self Eclipse," and "Breakthrough." What do these mean, if anything?

3) In the in-game config menu, what does the Level option do (Unplugged, Limited, Compressed, etc)?

4) Lastly, what's the benefit of triggering the Spirit Kernel Extract from Scarlet Queen and (I think) Rex Cavalier? Just for additional score, I'm guessing? Can this occur with any other boss?

Macaw · Post by **Macaw** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:52 pm

Thanks to Observer for doing my job for me. Now everyone go post in my high score thread for the game.

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:53 pm

Macaw wrote:Thanks to Observer for doing my job for me. Now everyone go post in my high score thread for the game.

Couldn't do less. After all, this was shoesama's favourite game since ChoRenSha68k (people, go check that thread as well

)

Indeed, I should post there... Oh, the score is based on your spirit count, kills and such (right?) This is why the Shrine of Farewell is so important because you lose ALL your spirits there and the better you score in that stage, the better your spirit output.

ZOM> I was wondering, your current avi is Kagura, right? And I think it's just as complex as RSG (because it has THAT much amount of firing modes and weapons available) or Ikaruga but a thousand times more enjoyable. Still so hard to believe one person can challenge other, bigger developers (although we have to admit STG developing teams are small anyway). Guess the over four years invested in this thing and Radio Zonde were worth it.

Aisha>

1) No visual indicators except for your sol/bomb gauge reaching level 3 (low level bomb) and when it maxes out (high level bomb and you get a strange circle of spheres and symbols surrounding you, which can also be a shield against certain bullets and save you from the fastest, meanest attacks... though it'll drain your entire sol gauge). There are sound indicators but the voices are too muffled/distorted to understand it says: "RELOADED". But you'll learn to recognise the sounds. The Sol/Luna makes like a little bell sound with a voice. The subweapon makes a tecno noise if I'm not wrong.

Sound and music are key in Hellsinker. While Rez is for the artfags (don't get me wrong, I quite like Rez, but I dislike the whole 'artfaggotry' that stroke it), in this thing the music isn't decorative or for the flashy effects. I cannot stop stressing this. It's usually the tell-tale signs of boss reactions, incoming obstacles and such. And sounds aren't filler either, they help you find out which bar or thing is running out (ie: Kagura will emit a noisy alarm when you run out of ammo or turn auto-fire+targeting in Anti-Bacilus Saber weapon mode)

2) "Self-Eclipse"... Damn, I can't remember. I think the 'Solid State' happens if you pick the Solid State Style. If you get hit with max Sol Gauge you character will scream/do a weird noise but you won't die, you'll enter Solid State mode... which I assume means you become real and during rest of the game you are some sort of ethereal/crazy/Darius-worthy weirdness. "Breakthrough" is a bonus extend you get when you reach a certain amount of spirit or score requirement. I tend to get it on Segment 5 but once got it at Segment 8. It'll clear all the bullets on screen. "Immortal" comes when you max out lives, but it's a lie: you can still die =P

3) "Unplugged", etc. are the difficulty modes. Rank is handled by your stella count (I think it was like that according to Goshi). The higher your Stella, the harder and faster everything will hit but it also improves your score. "Unplugged" will make you start with a low stella count. If you die, the rank goes down too. Do well and enemies will go berserker on you. It's not as brutal as Garegga though.

4) I think it's for score. You are right, Rex Cavalier pulls the same trick and can give you a blunt "baddo endo" if you don't make haste and destroy it. See what happens if you beat up Rex Cavalier way too early, before the spirit kernel is released... Scarlet Queen Spirit Kernel is awesome, if only for the graphics overload and the fact that it scared the shit out of me when I faced it.

And wait till Goshi or SFKhoa spot this thread.

ZOM · Post by **ZOM** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:52 pm

Observer wrote:ZOM> I was wondering, your current avi is Kagura, right?

Nope, not even close.

It's Zom Dizae, the demon commander in XAK III: The eternal recurrence (PCE & PC-98 )...

Anyway, will take a while for me till i post some more or less decent scores for Hellsinker.

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:20 pm

ZOM wrote:
Observer wrote:ZOM> I was wondering, your current avi is Kagura, right?
Nope, not even close.
It's Zom Dizae, the demon commander in XAK III: The eternal recurrence (PCE & PC-98 )...

Anyway, will take a while for me till i post some more or less decent scores for Hellsinker.

mmm, it's pretty badass nevertheless. I really like it. I swear it looks a bit like some of the fan arts of Kagura I've been seeing. Or similar to Rex Cavalier. I'm confused now.

Mischief Maker · Post by **Mischief Maker** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:30 pm

Just a couple details that I have managed to figure out:

Self-Eclipse means you need to drain some Luna (your primary shot ammo) fast or the game will spawn two purple star tokens. Never pick these up because they will drop your Stella gauge by one and do bad things for your score.

Solid State, Aspirant, and Adept determine the autobomb/autoshield characteristics of the game. Solid State is the easiest, you get more autobombs per level before the game decides you're on your own (still dependent on your Sol levels for ammo) and will turn on the bullet slowing/eating shield automatically when you aren't hitting any fire buttons. Aspirant is just like Solid State, but you get less autobombs before the game takes off the training wheels. Adept means no autobombs and the bullet slowing/eating shield only turns on if you hold down the primary shot.

Also note that the game gives score not just for bullet eating, but also for bullet scraping, a good thing to remember when enemies fire slow needle shots at you.

Here's my question. Does anyone have any tips for using Fossilmaiden effectively against bosses? Even with the tracking lasers she seems incredibly underpowered against strong enemies compared to minogame and deadliar. I can't even take out all those circles in rings in the behind version of level 1 with her.

Observer · Post by **Observer** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:45 pm

Sadly, I can only direct you to NicoNico. Someone did a complete run with Fossil Maiden so that might help ya beating the game.

http://es.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm1420607

I recall Aojiru (Mukyou.jp, the dude that makes piano/orchestral shooter arranges and has that mega-fucking-awesome orchestral Legendary Wings along with several Touhou orchestral pieces) did a complete guide for Fossil Maiden but it seems he took it down... =/

But fear not. Quarter Ice Shop (responsible of some of the few fanarts) also did a Hellsinker guide.

http://www.q-ice.com/diary/ex_hellsinker/index.htm

Hope that helps.

mjclark · Post by **mjclark** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:28 pm

Wow-the more this goes on the more interesting it becomes...
...I know this might be worthy of a new thread but going back to RefRain Prism memories Demo, what's the Concept Reactor guage for? I get that there's a standard shot, lock shot and pulse/bomb but beyond that I'm mystified...