3D graphics make some games suckier?

[Dann]

I was browsing Digg and found this article about graphics

http://www.techradar.com/news/computing ... s&attr=all

My response is here.

http://coreminimalist.blogspot.com/2008 ... g-drm.html

In a nutshell, I think certain games like Devil May Cry and GOW would benefit form a 2D installation of the series. Others like Metroid, Kirby, and Castlevania should stay 2D.

Your thoughts?

[D]

Only racing games and flight sims should be 3D, for the rest of any gaming genre it should be 2D. That being said. I'd like 2D HD updates of Outrun, etc. Just like they did for Galaxy Force!

[neorichieb1971]

I disagree. A game creation should be whatever the designer wants it to be.

Besides, 2D started to go wrong about the days of the Saturn for me. I Can't really explain it, except to say that I could tell 2D wasn't going anywhere further than it was at.

I am thinking I like 2D more for its artistic style rather than its gameplay values. I would definitely like to see games using the Street fighter HD remix graphics in a 2D revamp of over Capcom classics like final fight, Sega classics like Shinobi and Taito classics like Ninja Warriors.

[D]

I disagree. A game creation should be whatever the designer wants it to be.

I disagree with your disaagreement. A game creation should be whatever I want it to be.
There are lots of kids that become new gamers and many people grow up and stop liking games. It's not always because they got less time, more responsabilities and feel they've outgrown them. It's in some cases because games started to suck more and more. I think 3D has a big impact in that. The more focus on marketing instead of quality is probably an even bigger factor though.
Grown ups have way more money to spend than some of these kids, so whatever losses gaming companies made, they can blame themselves for that. And I'm not speaking about myself here, because I take to time and effort to scouer the planet for gems.

[moozooh]

Excuse me, but equating 3D graphics with 3D gameplay makes zero sense. And this is what you're doing here, basically: complaining about 3D gameplay and blaming graphics for that.

The consoles weren't fully ready for 3D at the time of its mass implementation, which is reflected in the evident reluctance of changing the control scheme (we were controlling stuff like Turok with a gamepad, while computer users played Quake using mouse + keyboard, a far more effective combination, at the same time). It was the main reason for camera problems: people were unable to control both the character and the camera fluently with a gamepad, so something had to be done [semi-]automatically. Not all 2D games have excellent camera view, either, especially when it comes to free-scrolling or zooming in/out. Don't tell me you've never lost time adjusting the camera view in Worms 2/Armageddon/World Party.

There is nothing wrong with 3D graphics in a 2D gameplay game, and as soon as computers became able to make them not look like balls, it could have been a way to go for most games, except where 2D was a choice consciously dictated by art direction.

[D]

Battle Fantasia is a good example of a good 2D game with 3D graphics.
Even though the particular style may not apply to everyone one can clearly see it's potential.

[InTheFlatField]

Like anything 3D can be a blessing or a detriment to game. It's easy to point out games like the sonic ones that started to suck with advent of 3D, but there have been 2D sonic games made in the 3D era and they suck too. It's just as easy to point out the 3D games that have been financial and critical successes in just about every genre. All of Nintendo's major franchises have been made into 3D games( except kirby ) and they have all been critical and financial successes as well as being well liked by the gaming culture as a whole. This even includes platformers, as the 3D mario games have been very successful.

I disagree that God of War and Devil May Cry would lose nothing as the entire game was designed around a 3D environment and there's no way a 2D game could accurately portray the same gameplay in the 3D installments. A 2D game was made for God of War and the gameplay does lose a lot.

In the end 3D gives developers another dimension to play around with, and that gives them more freedom to be creative with.

[Andi]

Maybe the future of games is 3D games with 2D graphics. Like Doom where the body sprites rotate on the floor as you turn around them.

[moozooh]

Maybe the future of games is 3D games with 2D graphics. Like Doom where the body sprites rotate on the floor as you turn around them.

:D

I want more games where bodies rotate on the floor as you turn around them, in general.

[Lordstar]

I disagree. A game creation should be whatever the designer wants it to be.

A lot of the time its not there choice. in fact i would say most the time its never there choice. Sonic adventure happened because they wanted to push the dreamcast. a lot of the time its cheaper to produce polygons then pixels or hand drawn stuff. I still think this was the deciding factor in making street fighter 4 pseudo 3D fighter (dont fucking argue with me its still on a 2D plane because I dont care the graphics are 3D and you cant argue that)

Back to what you said though. I think people have the right to produce whatever tripe they feel like. Its a shame we have not learned to say no to it.

[Frederik]

Heh, that´s funny. I just found your blog by accident yesterday reading a post about "netbooks are not Apple´s design" and saw your "full extend of the jam" banner at the bottom and wondered if the author played shmups. I guess I know the answer now. The internet is a small place.

[KindGrind]

Just look at what they did to SF back in the day... Sacrilegeous.

[MR_Soren]

Many series that went 3D should have stayed 2D. Especially the platformers. However, I have no problem with 2D games using polygon graphics. At least now that the graphics technology is good enough. In the PS1 era, most 2D games with 3D models were far uglier than a sprite-based game.

[Ceph]

Even though it may appear like I dislike 3D because of that forum I founded, I really don't. I think both 2D and 3D can (and should!) co-exist. Both have their raison d'etre. 2D games have a unique feeling that can't be translated into 3D. But just because I prefer my Castlevania in two dimensions, that doesn't mean I want my Resident Evil to be 2-dimensional.

[Cthulhu]

I don't think we'll see much of this, but the next Tales game, Tales of Hearts, will have two versions - one with 3D CG cutscenes and one with 2D anime cutscenes. The game itself will be a mix of 2D and 3D in both versions.

[PROMETHEUS]

Even though it may appear like I dislike 3D because of that forum I founded, I really don't. I think both 2D and 3D can (and should!) co-exist. Both have their raison d'etre. 2D games have a unique feeling that can't be translated into 3D. But just because I prefer my Castlevania in two dimensions, that doesn't mean I want my Resident Evil to be 2-dimensional.

+1

[dpful]

I think 3d graphics rule as long as their not obviously uglier than something you'd draw in 2d.
I don't think I've EVER played a game with 3d gameplay that seemed like it wouldn't have been better with 2d gameplay-- basically, anytime they can flatten out the action, it works OK.

[CStarFlare]

3D and 2D each come with their own set of limitations and issues, which hinder some games more than others. To name a few, a lot of 3D games have camera issues (as mentioned in the blog post), while it's much harder to create the sense of exploration in 2D that one can get by playing a game like GTA4 or Tomb Raider.

I don't think established 3D series would necessarily "benefit" from a 2D entry. No doubt they could be good games (as can 3D adaptions of 2D franchises), but such a jump between fundamentals kind of splits the series into two - ask any Castlevania fan about the series. There's the beloved (?) 2D portable games, and then there's "those" (?) 3D games, and they don't seem to have much in common except for a broad story premise.

It kind of seems like the kind of thing a company should pick and stick with. Chose a direction for the franchise to go and stick with it; that's how you establish a fanbase. All of the series I can think of with modern successes on both sides of the coin are ones that have already established fanbases for the 2D side; 3D is the natural progression, but there's still a kind of logical continuance of 2D tradition.

On the flipside, how many modern franchises (that started as 3D) have 2D entries that aren't GBA shovelware? These games established themselves as 3D, and scaling down a 3D world and a 3D experience to 2D is a sharp downgrade compared to the expectations the series has built up. Expectations would be the biggest stumbling block in a 3D>2D transition - most people consider 3D to be progression, and 2D to be regression. Unless you're counting on brand power to move your 2D game (in which case it's probably not good), you might be better off starting a new franchise than battling off unfair comparisons.

[Dann]

On the flipside, how many modern franchises (that started as 3D) have 2D entries that aren't GBA shovelware? These games established themselves as 3D, and scaling down a 3D world and a 3D experience to 2D is a sharp downgrade compared to the expectations the series has built up. Expectations would be the biggest stumbling block in a 3D>2D transition - most people consider 3D to be progression, and 2D to be regression. Unless you're counting on brand power to move your 2D game (in which case it's probably not good), you might be better off starting a new franchise than battling off unfair comparisons.

This is a good point, but I feel that most devs who want to port a game to the GBA use the approach of "what do we need to remove from the 3D game in order to make this playable on portable hardware" rather than a "let's build a really solid 2D game in the spirit and style of this well-known 3D series"

For example, I think the DMC series would extremely well as a side-scrolling beat-em-up a la streets of rage 3. Dante's attitude, flair, and style could easily make the transition.

On the other hand, Kirby 64 went pseudo-3D and then quietly slunk back to making building an awesome series on the GBA

[Quorthon]

Excuse me, but equating 3D graphics with 3D gameplay makes zero sense. And this is what you're doing here, basically: complaining about 3D gameplay and blaming graphics for that.

The consoles weren't fully ready for 3D at the time of its mass implementation, which is reflected in the evident reluctance of changing the control scheme (we were controlling stuff like Turok with a gamepad, while computer users played Quake using mouse + keyboard, a far more effective combination, at the same time). It was the main reason for camera problems: people were unable to control both the character and the camera fluently with a gamepad, so something had to be done [semi-]automatically. Not all 2D games have excellent camera view, either, especially when it comes to free-scrolling or zooming in/out. Don't tell me you've never lost time adjusting the camera view in Worms 2/Armageddon/World Party.

There is nothing wrong with 3D graphics in a 2D gameplay game, and as soon as computers became able to make them not look like balls, it could have been a way to go for most games, except where 2D was a choice consciously dictated by art direction.

Turok was where dual-analog control was born--in a primitive sort of way. Granted, it was forced to use the N64's cumbersome C-buttons, but it did it and I loved it back then. I instantly felt that any FPS forcing you to use buttons for strafing rather than making it a natural movement was obsolete.

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Metroid, Kirby, and Castlevania should stay 2D.

Castlevania's mostly stayed 2D since SotN and hasn't benefited from it at all.

[Quorthon]

Metroid, Kirby, and Castlevania should stay 2D.

Castlevania's mostly stayed 2D since SotN and hasn't benefited from it at all.

Most hardcore gamers these days crave mediocrity and monotony. What are you talkin' about?

Metroid kicked ass in 3-D. Not as much ass as Super Metroid, but close.