Hmmmmm

jordy · Post by **jordy** » Fri May 27, 2005 7:19 am

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/619/619535p1.html

Where to begin

crithit5000 · Post by **crithit5000** » Fri May 27, 2005 7:51 am

Not having many games of a certain type is no excuse to applaud the few underdeveloped games of that type that do happen to occasionally release.

OH SNAP!

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri May 27, 2005 9:06 am

Not having many games of a certain type is no excuse to applaud the few underdeveloped games of that type that do happen to occasionally release.

The review is mediocre at best, but this is probably the best point IGN has ever made.

Ex_Mosquito · Post by **Ex_Mosquito** » Fri May 27, 2005 12:09 pm

I thought it was pretty fair. MS 4/5 are not that hot anyway.

black mariah · Post by **black mariah** » Fri May 27, 2005 12:48 pm

It's entirely unfair because he's using the same fallback bullshit that ever retard that reviews games like this for IGN does. "BOOHOO UNLIMITED CONTINUES!" Fucking asshat. I'll admit to being a quarter-pounding little bitch when it comes to the MS series, but I'll be fucked by a deer before I blame my inability to actually PLAY THE FUCKING GAME on the game itself.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Fri May 27, 2005 3:24 pm

The graphics and sound parts really get to me. Again, 4 isn't that hot, and both 4&5 have some recycled parts, but overall the MS series has some of the best 2d graphics ever. And Slug 5 definitely has some killer music, the best in the series.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat May 28, 2005 12:27 am

black mariah wrote:It's entirely unfair because he's using the same fallback bullshit that ever retard that reviews games like this for IGN does. "BOOHOO UNLIMITED CONTINUES!" Fucking asshat. I'll admit to being a quarter-pounding little bitch when it comes to the MS series, but I'll be fucked by a deer before I blame my inability to actually PLAY THE FUCKING GAME on the game itself.

Don't people here complain about unlimited continues as well?

And I agree with their assessment of the graphics. The PS2 is capable of so much more when it comes to 2D graphics, but SNK refuses to step up to the plate.

The fact is, there are two ways to view this. As a classics compilation, or as a PS2 game. As a classics compilation, it fails because there are only two games when it's clear the entire series could be fit on these two discs. As a PS2 game, it's ugly and really should be updated. In 2005, Neo-Geo graphics are not "good enough" on machines that are capable of far more. The only thing sadder than the overall dismissal of 2D by gaming companies are the 2D fans who accept mediocre quality because, hey, it's better than nothing.

And it's not like these games make up for it with gameplay. They're the worst in the series by a fair margin.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Sat May 28, 2005 1:03 am

I can't think of a single 2d game on the PS2 that looks better than Metal Slug 3.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat May 28, 2005 1:18 am

Which is my point.

It's a damn shame because the system is capable of far more than the Neo-Geo for 2D, but nobody takes advantage of it because 2D fans are convinced that this is still "good enough" and everyone else just laughs at how dated it is and moves on.

The Neo-Geo is over a decade old. It runs at a very low resolution. We passed by what it can do years ago. Hell, the Xbox is capable of emulating a Neo-Geo perfectly (and as we all know, it takes significantly more power to emulate a piece of hardware than the original hardware has). Why are we still settling for recycled sprites running on hardware that came out when George H.W. Bush was president?

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat May 28, 2005 1:35 am

sethsez wrote:Why are we still settling for recycled sprites running on hardware that came out when George H.W. Bush was president?

Because by and large most companies won't put out much else that's 2D to begin with these days: it's just about the only game in town.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat May 28, 2005 1:37 am

Which is why I agree with IGN when they said "not having many games of a certain type is no excuse to applaud the few underdeveloped games of that type that do happen to occasionally release."

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat May 28, 2005 1:43 am

Well, we 2D gamers are more or less in a lose-lose situation then...if we shun mediocre 2D games then the companies will have NO reason to produce ANY more 2D stuff at all (especially since 3D stuff will make them infinitely more money), but if we keep buying it then the quality of the games will never get any better anyways, because they know it doesn't have to. Seems kinda bleak from here...

jp · Post by jp » Sat May 28, 2005 1:49 am

"Right now, Metal Slug 4 & 5 carries an MSRP of $40 new. In other words, you're paying $40 fort approximately one enjoyable half hour of Metal Slug 5, complete with the total pointlessness of an unlimited continue system. That also comes with the somewhat unsettling Metal Slug 4. "

Obviously he's never seen the prices for the AES carts.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat May 28, 2005 2:24 am

BulletMagnet wrote:Well, we 2D gamers are more or less in a lose-lose situation then...if we shun mediocre 2D games then the companies will have NO reason to produce ANY more 2D stuff at all (especially since 3D stuff will make them infinitely more money), but if we keep buying it then the quality of the games will never get any better anyways, because they know it doesn't have to. Seems kinda bleak from here...

Pretty much, yeah.

But when we have games like Atelier Iris coming out and the success of Nippon Ichi's games, there's certainly proof that 2D is still a valid medium and can move copies. Gamers need to buy more of these games, games that actually push 2D game art foward, and less of SNK's EA-mentality updates to games from a decade ago. Even Alien Hominid runs at a higher resolution than SNK's games, and it's based on a free flash game.

All I want is for SNK to re-draw their sprites at a higher resolution. This is far from an absurd request.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Sat May 28, 2005 3:06 am

So let me get this straight.....

Metal Slug 4 & 5 are 2-D arcade games right? They probably don't take up alot of space on a DVD, yet SNK releases them on two separate DVDs anyway. There better be alot of bonus stuff on both discs, otherwise it is a huge waste of resources.

On a side note, I'd bet real money that all the Metal Slug games could fit on one DVD.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Sat May 28, 2005 3:14 am

Stuff like Atelier Iris and other Nippon Ichi stuff are successful because there is frothing demand from the masses of RPG fans, far outnumbering shooter fans.

Anyway, while there are bits here and there in the article with which I disagree, I do believe on the whole the points are fair and valid.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat May 28, 2005 4:07 am

iatneH wrote:Stuff like Atelier Iris and other Nippon Ichi stuff are successful because there is frothing demand from the masses of RPG fans, far outnumbering shooter fans.

Although I agree somewhat, strategy RPGs were never exactly a cash cow in America. Their relative resurgence in popularity is a new thing, and if Disgaea looked like a Neo-Geo game I doubt it would have had the impact it had.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Sat May 28, 2005 5:26 am

sethsez wrote:
iatneH wrote:Stuff like Atelier Iris and other Nippon Ichi stuff are successful because there is frothing demand from the masses of RPG fans, far outnumbering shooter fans.
Although I agree somewhat, strategy RPGs were never exactly a cash cow in America. Their relative resurgence in popularity is a new thing, and if Disgaea looked like a Neo-Geo game I doubt it would have had the impact it had.

Am I the only one who thinks Disgaea looks like crap? Now, this could be opinion more than anything else, but Metal Slug (X,5,3), Fatal Fury: MoTW, and other top-tier Neo Geo games look ten times better than Disgaea. I liked Disgaea's art, but that's about it. The graphics were a bland mish-mash of 2D and 3D that didn't animate well to make things worse.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Sat May 28, 2005 7:27 am

I just fail to see how MS 4&5 are underdeveloped or mediocre. They may not be the best in the series, but they're still a damn sight better than the average action game. Also, before now, most gamers in the US have not had a chance to (legitimately) play them.

On the subject of redrawn hi-res sprites, I agree that SNK should do so for their new releases on the Atomiswave and elsewhere. But MS5 is only about a year and a half old, and frankly there's no reason to mess with the original artwork It looks great and has a good deal more character and emotion than your average PS2 game. I don't look at the game and go 'ewww, it's low-res'. SNK Playmore are a bunch of lazy bastards, and I doubt we'll see anything from them that can compare to the glory days of the old SNK, but I never thought I'd hear anyone complain about the release of a Metal Slug double pack.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat May 28, 2005 7:41 am

it290 wrote:I just fail to see how MS 4&5 are underdeveloped or mediocre. They may not be the best in the series, but they're still a damn sight better than the average action game.

4 is terrible and boring. 5 is a bit better, though, but still not as good as previous entries.

On the subject of redrawn hi-res sprites, I agree that SNK should do so for their new releases on the Atomiswave and elsewhere. But MS5 is only about a year and a half old,

It doesn't look it at all, and that's my point.

and frankly there's no reason to mess with the original artwork

Yes there is, for the same reason people around here hate EA's endless rehashes. Re-arranging graphics from a game I played years ago, making it worse than the previous games, and then selling it back to me does NOT make me a happy consumer. Especially when SNK could have very easily fit all six games onto one DVD, yet they're using two for two games.

I don't look at the game and go 'ewww, it's low-res'.

I, and many others, do.

I never thought I'd hear anyone complain about the release of a Metal Slug double pack.

I'm complaining because they're new games that look exactly like the old ones and play worse. I should be happy about this? There's no improvement on any front at all, from gameplay to graphics to sound to control. It's all either the same as or worse than previous games, and I'm sick of taking it from SNK with "thank you sir, may I have another?"

it290 · Post by **it290** » Sat May 28, 2005 4:27 pm

I disagree, MS5's music is really good (best in the series). It also offers the slide move and new Slug vehicles. I don't particularly care for the slide, but some like it. How would you attempt to enhance the gameplay, were you the director of the next Slug game? The series has some of the most finely tuned gameplay ever created, and I'd hate to see them screw it up by adding more pointless moves and such. Maybe I'm just a freak, though -- I don't like any of the 'Metroidvanias' either.

Post by **Shatterhand** » Sat May 28, 2005 7:59 pm

This actually makes me thing about something I believe...

A good game does not need any sequel. After X, the series went downhill IMO. 3 wasn't all that hot, and 4 & 5 are the worst in the series.

And this is all about level design, of course.

So you ask me "How would you attempt to enhance the gameplay, were you the director of the next Slug game". I'd say "I'd make a different game".

If we had hi-res 2D graphics and level design as good as in 1 or X, then we would have a winner. Still, besides the better gfx, the gameplay would still be the same, and in the end all we would get is "more of the same".

Ex_Mosquito · Post by **Ex_Mosquito** » Sat May 28, 2005 8:36 pm

Shamless plug i know but here's a metal slug 5 replay i did a while ago for anyone who's wondering how bad/good is it.

http://sonic.animebots.co.uk/MGV/GUEST/ ... 1-Life.wmv

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sat May 28, 2005 8:57 pm

I dislike the fact that the review labels Metal slug 4 as the bastard stepson of the series, dismisses it, and states that your basically paying $40 for one enjoyable game, Metal slug 5. A valid point...but mostly likely the perspective of the Metal Slug fan who was disappointed with Metal Slug 4's recycled graphics, level design, etc. The average IGN reader, which is target audience of the review, would most likely find Metal Slug 4 just as enjoyable as Metal slug 5, if they found any enjoyment in either game at all.

Another point of consideration is the fact that the reviewer had a major gripe with the MSRP, which surely soured his disposition to these “simplistic shooting games that feel primitive”. I have a feeling the reviewer would raise the rating for each increment of $10 that was taken off the MSRP: $30= 7 rating, $20 =8 rating, $10= Must-Have Old School Gaming Action at a Great Bargan Price!

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat May 28, 2005 9:55 pm

it290 wrote:How would you attempt to enhance the gameplay, were you the director of the next Slug game?

If there's not going to be a difference between Metal Slug 2 and 4 beyond the diminishing quality of the level design, why make them at all? Once again, it's that evil EA mentality popping up that's somehow forgiven when it comes to SNK. The same graphics, in the same engine, with the same moves (apart from, as you said, 5, which is why I said it's at least better than 4), with worse level designs does not justify making a new game. If SNK can't think of a single way to improve Metal Slug at all (graphics or otherwise), then maybe they should just let the series end instead of dragging it out. Why should the series continue to exist if it's never going to grow or change in the slightest?

Wanderer wrote:I dislike the fact that the review labels Metal slug 4 as the bastard stepson of the series, dismisses it, and states that your basically paying $40 for one enjoyable game, Metal slug 5. A valid point...but mostly likely the perspective of the Metal Slug fan who was disappointed with Metal Slug 4's recycled graphics, level design, etc. The average IGN reader, which is target audience of the review, would most likely find Metal Slug 4 just as enjoyable as Metal slug 5, if they found any enjoyment in either game at all.

When IGN reviews a game for "the standard fan" people complain that they should have gotten someone else to review it. When a fan of the genre reviews it, people complain that it should have been reviewed for the average gamer. There's no possible way they could win.

Personally, I liked the fact that they called a spade a spade and said that Metal Slug 4 is the worst of the series and is pretty damn dull on top of that. After all, it's the truth... why should they hide it under "well, you don't know any better anyway so BUY BUY BUY"?

Another point of consideration is the fact that the reviewer had a major gripe with the MSRP, which surely soured his disposition to these “simplistic shooting games that feel primitive”.

When I can buy the entire original Mega Man series for $20, paying $40 for two Metal Slug games seems like a ripoff. People expect more out of compilations than that these days, and considering 4 is bad and 5 is okay, it's not really worth it. Toss 3 in there and the score probably would have been much higher.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sun May 29, 2005 12:57 am

sethsez wrote:
Wanderer wrote:I dislike the fact that the review labels Metal slug 4 as the bastard stepson of the series, dismisses it, and states that your basically paying $40 for one enjoyable game, Metal slug 5. A valid point...but mostly likely the perspective of the Metal Slug fan who was disappointed with Metal Slug 4's recycled graphics, level design, etc. The average IGN reader, which is target audience of the review, would most likely find Metal Slug 4 just as enjoyable as Metal slug 5, if they found any enjoyment in either game at all.
When IGN reviews a game for "the standard fan" people complain that they should have gotten someone else to review it. When a fan of the genre reviews it, people complain that it should have been reviewed for the average gamer. There's no possible way they could win.

How about a little perspective from both sides? Instead of just, “The problem with this game is that it can be easily beaten in 30 minutes”, they could add, “When going for the 1-credit victory or playing for score, the game is extremely challenging”. You know, the score meter at the top of the screen is there for a reason! It’s worth a mention in the review.

sethsez wrote:
Wanderer wrote:Another point of consideration is the fact that the reviewer had a major gripe with the MSRP, which surely soured his disposition to these “simplistic shooting games that feel primitive”.
When I can buy the entire original Mega Man series for $20, paying $40 for two Metal Slug games seems like a ripoff. People expect more out of compilations than that these days, and considering 4 is bad and 5 is okay, it's not really worth it. Toss 3 in there and the score probably would have been much higher.

The Mega Man games are 15 years old. The Mega Man disc. is a retro collection.

Metal Slug 5 is 1 1/2 years old. Came out in 2003. It's not retro, and its not on a retro compilation. It's on a double pack. $20 a piece is what you are paying for Metal Slug 4 & 5. If you enjoy these games, that's a decent deal considering these games were just released within the last 2-3 years.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun May 29, 2005 1:22 am

Wanderer wrote:
sethsez wrote:
Wanderer wrote:Another point of consideration is the fact that the reviewer had a major gripe with the MSRP, which surely soured his disposition to these “simplistic shooting games that feel primitive”.
When I can buy the entire original Mega Man series for $20, paying $40 for two Metal Slug games seems like a ripoff. People expect more out of compilations than that these days, and considering 4 is bad and 5 is okay, it's not really worth it. Toss 3 in there and the score probably would have been much higher.
The Mega Man games are 15 years old. The Mega Man disc. is a retro collection.

Metal Slug 5 is 1 1/2 years old. Came out in 2003. It's not retro, and its not on a retro compilation. It's on a double pack. $20 a piece is what you are paying for Metal Slug 4 & 5. If you enjoy these games, that's a decent deal considering these games were just released within the last 2-3 years.

Mega Man 8 is 9 years old now, but close enough.

And as I said earlier, I don't care if Metal Slug 5 is a year and a half old. It looks and sounds like it came out in 1994, and it's running on hardware released in 1990 (just to put the Mega Man comparison in perspective, that's when Mega Man 3 came out). Judged by modern standards, it's ugly and dated as hell. If SNK wants to offset that, they'll have to give us more than two games, or re-draw the fucking sprites at a respectable resolution.

I could make a game with SNES graphics, release it for the PS2 and charge $40 for it claiming that, hey, it's reasonable because it's new! Of course, most people would pick up the game, laugh at it, and then put it back.

At least Metal Slug 3 had great gameplay going for it when the Xbox version came out. 4 can't even claim that, and 5 still isn't as good as 3.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun May 29, 2005 2:01 am

sethsez wrote:If SNK wants to offset that, they'll have to give us more than two games, or re-draw the fucking sprites at a respectable resolution.

It's been noted before, but I might as well mention that hand-drawn stuff is (to the best of my knowledge) more expensive to do these days than computer-rendered stuff, and is especially hard to make a profit on considering that it's already being marketed pretty much solely to a niche market...I don't know what sort of financial state SNK is in these days, but not long ago, iirc, they were on the brink...

And while I'm hardly a Neo-Geo enthusiast, I would suspect that at least some of SNK's fans actually like the "retro" look of the games...if they didn't, after all, why would they have bought so much stuff from them (often at nice high prices, too) for so long now? Everyone's tastes are different, after all...

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Sun May 29, 2005 2:05 am

sethsez wrote: And as I said earlier, I don't care if Metal Slug 5 is a year and a half old. It looks and sounds like it came out in 1994, and it's running on hardware released in 1990 (just to put the Mega Man comparison in perspective, that's when Mega Man 3 came out). Judged by modern standards, it's ugly and dated as hell.

Your points are well taken, I really do wish someone would step up and take 2-D graphics to the next level. In the meantime, I see nothing wrong with championing/releasing "ugly and dated" 2-D games if they are fun to play (which is obviously subjective, I enjoyed Metal slug 4& 5 and you didn't). I actually think Metal Slug 5 looks pretty good, and I would love to see some new 2-D shmups with "dated" graphics circa 1995-2000 vs. some of the simple polygon stuff we have been getting recently.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun May 29, 2005 5:28 am

I do understand that the style appeals to a small group of people and redrawing it would cost more than leaving it the same. I'm just saying that I, and many other people, expect the same from SNK as we do from anyone else. If Metal Slug 6 (and it's inevitable) is higher res and uses new sprites, count me in! Until then... well, I already have some Metal Slug games. I don't need more expansion packs.

I guess I should also mention at this point that I've always found Metal Slug to be a bit too slow-paced. I'd much rather play a good Contra than a good Metal Slug, so that should put some of my comments in perspective (though I wouldn't buy a re-arranged Hard Corps either).