Washing the Hardcore Away

[lgb]

I think some of you may need to read this.

[Lordstar]

oooooohhh ho ho ho! some ones been watching the discovery channel

[junkeR]

ich bin hardkoRe

[trivial]

"Every man in his ardor relates to a woman of uncertain intelligence."

I'll admit I started skimming before I met the rules girls here. These verses arduous ladders to nowhere. Middling death bought dear.

[Ghegs]

An interesting read, but some of his points seem a bit off.

Experienced gamers have spent enormous time and effort at learning games. When computer magazines came out, old timers were irritated that one did not have to learn how to program games themselves. Instead, they could just copy what was shown in a magazine. And those gamers, as they aged, became irritated when games were sold in zip-loc bags in stores. Now, gamers did not even need to put in the code! When the NES came out, computer gamers were irritated that the new gamers, the NES generation, would not know the burn of long loading times or dealing with a complex keyboard for all gaming. Arcade gamers were irritated that the 3d gamers did not have to play and replay a part of the game a thousand times until he got it right to advance. Games were becoming easier and removing those obstacles previous gamers had spent so much of their time and effort to work. Imagine the frustration of a computer gamer, having to create multiple boot discs to get a certain VooDoo graphics to work to play a huge RPG epic, become annoyed at younger gamers who do nothing but pop in a disc!

The important part is bolded. Here he seems to confuse the difference between the gameplay styles of arcade games and non-arcade games as a technological obstacle that had to be overcome (like the other comparisons he lists there) in order for the games industry to grow. Of course non-arcade games are a big part of why the games industry is as huge as it is now, but the way he says it leads the reader to believe that arcade-style games are totally extinct in today's gaming world, just like having to code the game yourself or just typing it from a magazine. When in fact arcade-style games have never disappeared and are actually making something of a comeback to the "mainstream" (gotta use the term carefully in context with that article) in the form of indie/doujin games, XBLA and such. If the evolution of games were as linear (instead of the multi-branched tree I see it as) as he makes it to be here, the final game ever made in the universe would be nothing but a shiny "Press here to win!"-button that gives an orgasm upon completion.

But yeah, an interesting read and many times I went "Hey, that's true. Wow."

[Octopod]

"the final game ever made in the universe would be nothing but a shiny "Press here to win!"-button that gives an orgasm upon completion. "


That would be an awesome game.

[Mortificator]

Not if it had voice chat.

[Never_Scurred]

Thank god for the "end" button. This is why I hate writing and writing/composition instructors. occams motherfucking razor....geez

[nimitz]

Wow, couldnt bother reading this for more than 10 minutes, mostly because of false assumptions and flawed logic...

But it seems this "essay" is an apologia to instant gratification.

Also the author does not make the distinction between circumstantial and voluntary effort; which leads to a completely flawed argumentation.

[Udderdude]

Do I really have to read all of this to get this guy's point?

Anyone got a summary?

[Zebra Airforce]

Terrible.

[szycag]

This shit makes Tim Rogers look like Craig Harris

[worstplayer]

I feel dumber for reading this.

Also, is this article randomly generated?

[BIL]

I don't think many here need to read this. This forum's userbase doesn't generally seem as deluded or naive about the standing of "hardcore gaming" as the article's imagined "fringe gamer."

Also, the author's apparent painting of all enthusiasts with the same brush is amusing.

“Do not game makers try to get their fringe franchise to enter the mainstream? Do they not try to remove the obstacles that are limiting their games’ sales? Don’t you see the push to move the game to the mainstream? In fact, the ‘hardcore’ do not really want to become mainstream. As soon as a game enters the mainstream, it must be hated because then it is ‘popular’.”

“Like Grand Theft Auto III. Like Madden.”

“Exactly. One can see this effect occur within individual genres. In shmups, the ‘hardcore’ will compete among each other to name the most obscure Japanese only shmup while ignoring the mainstream hits such as Gradius or even R-Type. Hardcore confuse the obstacles to gaming as its sophistication where it is the exact opposite.”

“That explains why the Treasure shmups like Radiant Silvergun or Ikaruga were endlessly praised by the hardcore until they became popular. And then, suddenly, those games were ‘no good’.”

“Yes. The ‘hardcore’ are not core but fringe. They want to be different from the mainstream. As soon as something hits the mainstream, they move away from it as if it contained the plague. One cannot be simultaneously sophisticated and tasteful if it is mainstream.”

This forum would acquit itself of the bolded claims and dismantle the bolded points with no trouble. The above passage makes the author appear ignorant and presumuptious. "One cannot be reasoning and articulate if one is an enthusiast ("hardcore") gamer."

Not that the article doesn't have some interesting observations to share, and I'm sure the author realises not all "hardcore gamers" fit his character. But the same points could easily be made in less words and without the condescending, theatrical tone.

[Taylor]

This entire site has increased my blood pressure dramatically. Thanks.

[jpj]

I don't think many here do need to read this. This forum's userbase doesn't generally seem as deluded or naive about the standing of "hardcore gaming" as the article's imagined "fringe gamer."

Also, the author's apparent painting of all enthusiasts with the same brush is amusing.

“Do not game makers try to get their fringe franchise to enter the mainstream? Do they not try to remove the obstacles that are limiting their games’ sales? Don’t you see the push to move the game to the mainstream? In fact, the ‘hardcore’ do not really want to become mainstream. As soon as a game enters the mainstream, it must be hated because then it is ‘popular’.”

“Like Grand Theft Auto III. Like Madden.”

“Exactly. One can see this effect occur within individual genres. In shmups, the ‘hardcore’ will compete among each other to name the most obscure Japanese only shmup while ignoring the mainstream hits such as Gradius or even R-Type. Hardcore confuse the obstacles to gaming as its sophistication where it is the exact opposite.”

“That explains why the Treasure shmups like Radiant Silvergun or Ikaruga were endlessly praised by the hardcore until they became popular. And then, suddenly, those games were ‘no good’.”

“Yes. The ‘hardcore’ are not core but fringe. They want to be different from the mainstream. As soon as something hits the mainstream, they move away from it as if it contained the plague. One cannot be simultaneously sophisticated and tasteful if it is mainstream.”

This forum would acquit itself of the bolded claims and dismantle the bolded points with no trouble. The above passage makes the author appear ignorant and presumuptious. One cannot be reasoning and articulate if one is an enthusiast ("hardcore") gamer.

Not that the article doesn't have some interesting observations to share, and I'm sure the author realises not all "hardcore gamers" fit his character. But the same points could easily be made in less words and without the condescending, theatrical tone.

i actually think he has a point here. do a bit of searching and there are plenty of threads here like: "do you like mainstream games?", "i only play import games", connotations between liking ikaruga to IGN reviewer/being ignorant, etc etc. certain people even make themselves martyrs for it they also tend to be the most vocal people on the forum

[BIL]

i actually think he has a point here. do a bit of searching and there are plenty of threads here like: "do you like mainstream games?", "i only play import games", connotations between liking ikaruga to IGN reviewer/being ignorant, etc etc. certain people even make themselves martyrs for it they also tend to be the most vocal people on the forum

Oh sure, "popular" stuff (Treasure, Touhou , Cave in relative terms) gets its flak here. And mainstream gaming gets a good deal of derision too. But even so, there's generally more reasoning among this forum, which certainly represents the genre's "hardcore," than the "must mindlessly keep indie cred / reject soiled mainstream goods" scenario he contrives. And plenty of less mainstream stuff gets its knocks, as well. I'm pretty sure Metal Black isn't experiencing popularity backlash when it's periodically trashed, despite being obscure and arty. No, it's usually knocked for unwieldy gameplay and other design concerns. Just like Gradius III SNES will get criticised for being too easy rather than too famous, and Ikaruga's scoring system / level design is often as much a point of contention as its "popular" status. Battle Garegga has zero mainstream recognisability, and it's similarly distasteful to some / championed by others.

I'm sure he's just namedropping a conveniently "hardcore" fanbase and a handful of allegedly spurned "mainstream hits" for instant credibility ("trust me, I understand shmup fans of all people"). But to any discerning member of the group he's writing off, it has the opposite effect. I couldn't blindly piss on Ikaruga in the main forum like he suggests. Gradius, R-Type and Raiden are respected names here, and nobody raises an eyebrow when they're frequently brought up. Gradius Gaiden hasn't lost its high regard since losing JP-only status. Most of us jump on the mere mention of US / EU ports like starving dogs. And I doubt anyone worthwhile believes they can impress the forum by namedropping "obscure JP shooter X."

It's a silly example on his part, but, well, I'm reading his article on a shooter forum. He'd be better off just not leaning on the "mainstream recognition = instant hardcore hatred = hardcore gamers are poseurs & impossible to please" crutch, or at least not saddling the nearest convenient fanbase with the claim. I bet most here would love shooters to receive a little more mainstream attention / sales, as long as they weren't diluted in the process. I'm sure many other niche game fans feel similarly. Of course then we're onto an entirely different concern than his "damn, more than ten people are playing this!" scenario.

[Rob]

“That explains why the Treasure shmups like Radiant Silvergun or Ikaruga were endlessly praised by the hardcore until they became popular. And then, suddenly, those games were ‘no good’.”[/b]

My Ikaruga review will clear this right up.

[RackGaki]

I may or may not read this one later. The selected quotes show misguided accusations and points that make little practical sense. No examples are given. Practical terminology and definitions would help him greatly, again, just based on the quotations here. The name-dropping comment seems ill-informed.

It seems he has the presumptuous know-it-all shit-spewing of the same people he derides.

Hardcore confuse the obstacles to gaming as its sophistication where it is the exact opposite.

This seems to be milking off of Kierkegaard's argument that complexity usually = quality. Ironic since both may dismiss games the other enjoys for similar justifications. Come to think of it, if he concocted this article after choking down such a sullen blog, I can't blame him for all his whiny preconceptions about the genre's fans.

[spineshark]

Do I really have to read all of this to get this guy's point?

No, I read the whole thing and I'm not convinced he has an overall point.

If the evolution of games were as linear (instead of the multi-branched tree I see it as) as he makes it to be here, the final game ever made in the universe would be nothing but a shiny "Press here to win!"-button that gives an orgasm upon completion.

First, I think you're right that games are definitely not (and haven't) just gone in one direction. (Though if the technology ever gets there you can be sure that this one will happen)

The other thing that this brings up is that, for a lot of gamers, a game that's just easy isn't interesting. For me I see no reason to bother with something that isn't challenging. Fortunately, even if Nintendo or anyone does throw the industry into a pit of boredom and disinterest, it won't matter because there are already more good games than I could ever play.

[Stormwatch]

In fact, the ‘hardcore’ do not really want to become mainstream. As soon as a game enters the mainstream, it must be hated because then it is ‘popular’.” .. “Like Grand Theft Auto III. Like Madden.”

Were those ever regarded as hardcore? And, in fact, I quite see sports as anathema to hardcore gaming... or to gaming altogether. A sports game is an extension of the unwashed masses' irrational team devotion into a realm of fantasy that ought not to be tainted with such a thing. Gaming is about ninjas, wizards, barbarians, spaceships, cartoony mascots... not athletes! Not real-life celebrities! Not product placement and licensing deals!

[Ed Oscuro]

"The dignity of truth is lost with much protesting."

And, in fact, I quite see sports as anathema to hardcore gaming... or to gaming altogether.

Are you sincere or meta

[Rob]

Not product placement and licensing deals![/i]

I remember thinking it was cool that Jet Moto had real life product billboards in it. Realistic!

[Stormwatch]

Well, I don't want games with real life celebrities.
Something just feels wrong about it.


And the games tend to be awful anyway.


Know what I mean?


And it's a waste. You could play as a knight, a sorcerer,
a robot, any kind of hero. But nooo, instead you play as
a bunch of shitty pop singers.


Or even worse...

[320x240]

"the final game ever made in the universe would be nothing but a shiny "Press here to win!"-button that gives an orgasm upon completion. "


That would be an awesome game.

Depends on who does the localisation. Your not expecting this to be region free are you?

[Ed Oscuro]

It's late and you're not making a lot of sense to me in that post, Stormwatch, which is unusual for you!

There clearly can be good games about sports, and I think there are good sports games. I'm never down with bashing a whole genre.

If nothing else, where do you draw the line? Daytona USA qualifies as a sports game by some; by others Rollergames or Super Dodgeball don't, I guess.

I am having trouble thinking of a sports game I have played and liked (self-fulfilling prophecy when you stay away from a genre!), but that's not because of the ads.

[szycag]

megaman soccer
bill laimbeer's combat basketball

[Stormwatch]

I mean team-based sports games, how about that? Pretty much anything that has "a bunch of people in two rival groups trying to get a ball across a field" will probably not interest me. I don't like it in real life, so I don't want it in my videogames either. Those sports always felt stupid to me.

Yet, I'm ok with sports that are one-on-one (tennis), or solo (golf), or not ball-related at all (racing, sharpshooting, fencing).

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, I stay away from sports games too, but I don't begrudge other people enjoying them and I'm sure that in the right company I could enjoy them.

I dunno, I just thought that the whole point of being "hardcore" was realizing that there are all sorts of niches out there. Genre acceptance shouldn't be like one guy pulling bricks out of his neighbor's house to build his own; the market is pretty big and there's lots of people out there who just don't get one type of game or another (myself included; I'm sticking to only a very few types of games at the moment).

[BIL]

I dunno, I just thought that the whole point of being "hardcore" was realizing that there are all sorts of niches out there. Genre acceptance shouldn't be like one guy pulling bricks out of his neighbor's house to build his own....

I feel similarly. To me, being a so-called "hardcore gamer" is just enjoying gaming in general as a hobby rather than a simple diversion. Which or how many genres doesn't really matter to me, just the interest.

Considering the author's definition of "hardcore" is "a desire for sophistication in the form of obstacles," this article obviously isn't going to work here. As Ghegs said, "obstacle" is the wrong term to use among gamers who enjoy shooter / other typically "hardcore" design ethics. And suggesting Armed Police Batrider would be regarded as a more sophisticated game than Gradius III simply for being unlocalised is risible. This article could really only apply to a certain blinkered strain of gamer, and they'd probably be dismissed by forums like this as well.