Spaced Repetition Systems and Flash Cards...aye or nay?

[Aru-san]

I've been studying Japanese for about 4 years now, and just recently, I've been making extensive use of Spaced Repetition Systems (SRS) on my computer to better help me learn kanji and some sentences. I'm currently using Reviewing the Kanji for Kanji (as said in the title of the site) and Anki for sentences and phrases (screw Byki; I ain't payin' to make my own SRS sets, dammit!). Most of my inspiration of using SRS has been through this guy, and so far, I could actually recall some of the kanji I've been going through on RTK.

Though just yesterday, I was talking to this one girl on AIM who goes to an Ivy League college and said to me, "I recommend you don't self-study Japanese" and that "flashcards are a bad learning tool because the learning is passive. In class, the learning is active, so you use the language much more, so much to the point that 1 year of classes will make you fluent." However, as far as what I've read from All Japanese, All the Time is concerned, Khatzumoto says that "...if used correctly (i.e. daily and with well-formed question-answer pairs), then they promise retention in the range of 90-95%, and in my experience, they do deliver. It’s interesting to think that actually “letting go” ― allowing that you will forget 5-10% of what you learn, rather than being obsessed with 100% retention, has the counter-intuitive effect of leading you to actually learn more."

So...should I listen to the Ivy League college girl who believes that one year of classes would guarantee fluency, or should I listen to some guy on the internet who spent 18 months of his life learning Japanese at a near-24/7 rate and is currently at fluency?

Sorry if I'm asking for linguistics advice on a shmup forum; I didn't know where else to go.

[Ex-Cyber]

Different people learn best by different methods. Based on my weak (high school level) knowledge of psychology, I'd question the active/passive learning distinction; the key thing is that you use some method that forces you to recall the things that you want to learn and check them for correctness.

The other thing to consider is what it is that you actually want to learn. If you want to learn to speak the language, you should speak it (I think this is mostly where a class/club/etc. might come in handy). If you want to learn to read the language, you should read it. If you want to learn to write it, you should write it. All of these obviously draw on common knowledge, but each one has its own quirks and your learning is incomplete if you don't work through them.

I've never used SRS, but the principles seem to make sense. It's important, too, to keep in mind that the principles behind it are the key, not the specific medium of "cards". As far as I can tell, there is no reason that you can't do audio-based or video-based SRS with the appropriate software support...

[Ed Oscuro]

The active/passive thing makes sense when you think about how you're considering studying for various aspects of Japanese proficiency.

Of course a lot of the stuff I'm talking about here is very basic stuff from a very basic entry-level course, but I've talked a bit about various strategies and so these can be applied to various situations. I don't know about the SRS, but I do know that emphasizing visual recognition or spoken phrase retrieval only gives you a few of the skills you need. You also need to be able to write things, and just glancing at a flash card doesn't build patterns of muscle memory for remembering stroke order and the like.

Flash cards with situations illustrated (my textbook does this and my professor has tons of cards and things made up for us to be able to come up with appropriate responses to what we see, he even has a little sign with an O and an X on different sides, for situations when the answer is negative like ...ja arimasen or ...nomimasen) seem pretty good to me for speaking.

Flash cards are again probably pretty good for recognizing a kanji's or word's meaning / reading quickly. Japanese people don't like sentences full of hiragana and so getting the meaning quickly helps if you're going to be reading tons of stuff.

For some reason we also have set dialogues to memorize and say back. It helps people who have trouble figuring out how to say these phrases naturally, and helps get people thinking in terms of longer sentences again.

Writing in Japanese - very important for me especially since we obviously don't do a whole lot in a class setting.

Also important for me to try to forget the phrases I remember from other languages in class. Angles-sensee wa...anoooo...ich hay ein pregunta?

[Aru-san]

Of course a lot of the stuff I'm talking about here is very basic stuff from a very basic entry-level course, but I've talked a bit about various strategies and so these can be applied to various situations. I don't know about the SRS, but I do know that emphasizing visual recognition or spoken phrase retrieval only gives you a few of the skills you need. You also need to be able to write things, and just glancing at a flash card doesn't build patterns of muscle memory for remembering stroke order and the like.

In about most of the kanji I see, I can sort of write without stroke order guides just by looking at whatever radical is used in the kanji. I then follow the rules of going from the top-right and working my way down. For the stuff I have trouble writing (for instance, 家), THEN I resort to online stroke order diagrams (using WWWJDIC).

Flash cards with situations illustrated (my textbook does this and my professor has tons of cards and things made up for us to be able to come up with appropriate responses to what we see, he even has a little sign with an O and an X on different sides, for situations when the answer is negative like ...ja arimasen or ...nomimasen) seem pretty good to me for speaking.

Flash cards are again probably pretty good for recognizing a kanji's or word's meaning / reading quickly. Japanese people don't like sentences full of hiragana and so getting the meaning quickly helps if you're going to be reading tons of stuff.

This is what I'm already doing using the Reviewing the Kanji website. So far, I've managed to learn meanings of a couple hundred of kanji so far. Heck, I've even stumbled upon kanji I've never even SEEN before while I was studying!

For some reason we also have set dialogues to memorize and say back. It helps people who have trouble figuring out how to say these phrases naturally, and helps get people thinking in terms of longer sentences again.

I may not have set dialogues from a textbook, but that's why I use the 和英 dictionary here to get some example sentences and build off from there.

Writing in Japanese - very important for me especially since we obviously don't do a whole lot in a class setting.

I usually write Japanese to improve my writing proficiency. I understand about the class setting and how it's usually just interacting with other students in Japanese, but I also want to learn how to write for myself as well in the language.

Also important for me to try to forget the phrases I remember from other languages in class. Angles-sensee wa...anoooo...ich hay ein pregunta?

LOL Japanermish

[Daedalus]

Though just yesterday, I was talking to this one girl on AIM who goes to an Ivy League college and said to me, "I recommend you don't self-study Japanese" and that "flashcards are a bad learning tool because the learning is passive. In class, the learning is active, so you use the language much more, so much to the point that 1 year of classes will make you fluent."

Mmmm... this is kind of bad advice. Aside from that, "one year fluency" really makes me wonder if she's ever actually taken a language class.


First, regarding classes, I would recommend you take one if one is available. Taking a class will at the very least give you the opportunity to converse with other people in Japanese, and receive feedback from fluent speakers. However, if you really want to learn Japanese, you'll have to go far beyond the class. So, I would recommend using the class as one of your many tools for learning the language. If you don't take a class, make sure you have somebody who knows Japanese that you can bounce stuff off of. You don't want to reinforce something for 6 months only to find out you're doing it wrong.

If you don't know anyone in real life that can help you, there are a couple language exchange programs you can check out. These two seem to be popular, although I'm not really familiar with them:
http://www.livemocha.com/
http://www.sharedtalk.com/

Flashcards can be a good tool. However, I would suggest making paper cards and using those instead. You won't get the computer controlled repetition, but they're very portable. Reviewing your cards when waiting for the elevator, between classes, during lunch, etc, can be a great way to improve your Japanese knowledge. And all using time you would have normally done nothing with!

However, I think one of the best ways to learn is to just do stuff in Japanese. Once you have the basics down, start reading as much as you can in Japanese. Pick up a children's book (of whatever level you're slightly uncomfortable at) and read through it. Look up every kanji and word you're unfamiliar with, and make a note of it. Learn that list, and then read through the book again.

The same with writing... I keep a journal in Japanese, and it helps me immensely. Use as much kanji as you know, and don't slack off - look it up if you have to. In my mind, it is suicidal to learn kanji via flashcard (Okay, this fucking crazy thing looks like a horse, its onyomi are such and such, its kunyomi are such and such, etc). Just use it naturally and it will come to you far more pleasantly than trying to forcibly cram nonsense into your brain.

You may want to read up on mnemonic techniques as well. Even if you're trying to brute force words, there are good and bad ways to do it

But really, the two best things I can recommend are to stay motivated, and practice EVERY day. Even if it's only 20 minutes. Don't ever trick yourself into thinking you can't squeeze a couple minutes in a particular day. Keeping on top of it regularly will make all your learning far more efficient.

Good luck!

[Aru-san]

Though just yesterday, I was talking to this one girl on AIM who goes to an Ivy League college and said to me, "I recommend you don't self-study Japanese" and that "flashcards are a bad learning tool because the learning is passive. In class, the learning is active, so you use the language much more, so much to the point that 1 year of classes will make you fluent."

Mmmm... this is kind of bad advice. Aside from that, "one year fluency" really makes me wonder if she's ever actually taken a language class.

The funny part about it is this: as we speak, she is actually TAKING said class.

First, regarding classes, I would recommend you take one if one is available. Taking a class will at the very least give you the opportunity to converse with other people in Japanese, and receive feedback from fluent speakers. However, if you really want to learn Japanese, you'll have to go far beyond the class. So, I would recommend using the class as one of your many tools for learning the language. If you don't take a class, make sure you have somebody who knows Japanese that you can bounce stuff off of. You don't want to reinforce something for 6 months only to find out you're doing it wrong.

I have a teacher at my school who's fluent in Japanese, so maybe I can start talking to him more often. Also, they offer summer school classes at Berkeley, so I'll be able to take Japanese 3 then.

Flashcards can be a good tool. However, I would suggest making paper cards and using those instead. You won't get the computer controlled repetition, but they're very portable. Reviewing your cards when waiting for the elevator, between classes, during lunch, etc, can be a great way to improve your Japanese knowledge. And all using time you would have normally done nothing with!

I could probably make flash cards, but usually in the form that RTK does it and such...and usually for purposes that'll help me at least read the kanji...reading comes later.

However, I think one of the best ways to learn is to just do stuff in Japanese.

The same with writing... I keep a journal in Japanese, and it helps me immensely. Use as much kanji as you know, and don't slack off - look it up if you have to.

That's what he said!

You may want to read up on mnemonic techniques as well. Even if you're trying to brute force words, there are good and bad ways to do it

But really, the two best things I can recommend are to stay motivated, and practice EVERY day. Even if it's only 20 minutes. Don't ever trick yourself into thinking you can't squeeze a couple minutes in a particular day. Keeping on top of it regularly will make all your learning far more efficient.

Good luck!

Thanks for the advice! I'll probably put some of these techniques in place, mostly the reading stuff. Now if only I could find a Japanese STG forum....