You asked for it...

[Aggrav8d]

First, I'd like to thank everyone who's taken a moment to try the early prototype of Shoot Shoot, Bang Bang. I'd like to take a moment to tell you what I've learned from your feedback and what I'm going to do. I think it's a good idea to let people know their words carry some weight.

I've changed the official page to no longer display the pricing information or link to the order form. The page was created based on a template I had and many people thought it showed arrogance and hubris to display that information before the game was actually available for sale or even appealing enough to be bought.

The next version (0.6.0) ...
...has smaller collision boundaries on the players' ships
...has a playing area with a 3/4 ratio traditional to shmups instead of the 4/3 ratio traditional with standard windows sizes. Black bars will be drawn down the sides, tho i might fill 'em with stats & pleasant background animations that fit the theme.
...has a full 3 minute level with a boss that shoots a variety of fire patterns, each with distinct shape, size, and color. The boss will have hit regions that need to be destroyed before the boss proper will die and at the moment of death with trigger the end-of-level sequence. (At present killing the purple miniboss does not trigger this sequence, leaving you flying in nothing forever)
...will be released very soon (within about a week, I hope)

A few people are apparently very turned off by the placeholder art. I don't want any more people to get a bad first impression based on unfinished art so version 0.7.0 will have added focus on making the game more "edgy".

The game is already designed so that two players can play side by side. A goal for the not-too-distant future is to add networking - starting with global & continental rankings and later adding networked play (if there is sufficient demand).

Another goal is to finish the OSX port. Unfortunately my linux box does not support tunneling so I cannot use PearPC to test in an emulated environment. I hope to resolve this problem sometime soon.

Once again, thank you to everyone who's given some constructive feedback. It really helps eliminate doubt in my mind about which way to proceed and that makes developing the game that much easier. If you haven't tried it yet, please do. If you have anything else to suggest, well, you know I'm listening

Cheers!

[uwfan]

i cant get the download link to work , the "play free" link ....

[Aggrav8d]

The play free link takes you to the white box on the bottom of the page where the windows & linux distributions are available. Since I don't know if you're using linux or windows I can't make the play free link go directly to the appropriate installation. ...yet. hmm... you've inspired me to investigate... maybe with php I can determine the user's OS and then from there dynamically feed them the appropriate link... Thanks for the feedback, uwfan

Update: Try this link which is a proof-of-concept. If anyone cares I got the idea from the FireFox download page.

[TVG]

so, still no new version despite the announcements?

ok lets be constructive and tell what you can improve in your game.

1) remake it, completely, im serious.

2) collision detection of course

3) design some levels, instead of just random shit throwing random shit at you

4) why the hell could the ship move faster than its bullets? lol. thats whack.

5) overall design, im sure you wont have the bad taste to let it as it is.

6) shoot shoot bang bang? fap, fap, fap? ...

7) make a game thats actually playable.

boast less, comparing a piece of shit to raiden isnt going to make it good.

9) quit the typical western mentality "you see, our game sucks, but well be adding lots of shit to it, buy it now!"

10) wait to release something thats actually half decent before release preview demos of a non free gaame.

voila, before you go on and insult me, note that im not exagerrating, i just speak my mind.

[Aggrav8d]

Your feedback is appreciated. I don't know what it is about your commentary but it leave me feeling like you've got something against me personally. There are some major differences between how I'm doing things and how you think they should be, so let me address your points.

1. Remake something that isn't finished yet?

2. There is already AABB/AABB and AABB/Elipse collision detection. Could you be more specific?

3,5. Beign an early version the "random shit" is only there so that I can test various features. Try earlier versions and the shit is even worse. Version 0.6.0 will have a fully scripted level you can tear apart to your bitter heart's content.

4. Ships moving faster than bullets is definitely something that will be adjusted in v0.6.0. You're the second person to mention it.

6. ...and now we know what's going on in your subconcious. Actually, my mother used to call all action games shoot shoot, bang bang, because of their lack of intellectual depth. And really, what could be more appropriate? You shoot things, they blow up.

7,8. You boast that the game is completely unplayable (implying that you're too good for the game) and in the next breath tell me to boast less. Even though I don't like you, personally, it doesn't change the truthfullness of what you are saying. So let's take a look at that. You haven't explained how I have been boastful so I'm left to guess. I may have said something that were wrong but I've been willing to amend or defend them. I'm definitely trying to say things that sound good - that's just part of running a business. But I am not trying to glorify myself in what I write, I'm trying to glorify SSBB. So how can I be boasting? I haven't actually tried to compare Raiden (an excellent game) to SSBB. I've only said that they are similar. Since they are both SHMUPS this is true. You're reading a hell of a lot into my words.

9,10. I have explained in this very thread why the purchase information was visible and why I have removed it. I guess you're a little out of date if you're still on that subject. I have released every milestone during the project development and thought it might interested SHMUPpers to see how the project continues to evolve. It's a good way to start generating a fanbase, give the target audience exactly what they want, and (with the exception of you) provides me with a lot of positive reinforcement and that makes me work harder. You don't seem to grasp this particular point of view even though this is the second time I try to explain it.

So, to reitterate for clarity: This game and everything associated with it is in a high state of flux because it is still very much under development. I love any feedback about how to improve the gameplay mechanics, problems with using the UI, and more. I find it difficult not to be bitter when someone writes a stinging critique when the quality of that person's writing shows that they have difficulty putting cognizant thoughts in writing. Several of your points are repeats of each other; some are too vague to be constructive; some make wild accusations based on exaggeration; and all are based in the idea that the only games that should appear here are fully playable, and ready to entertain you. Put simply, it isn't your complaints I don't like. It's the weakness in your mind.

When you think about it, SSBB is already entertaining you. You're having a lot of fun finding fault and laughing at my typically western behaviour and that makes me feel good (the irony is hilarious). I hope that you'll continue to critique new releases. I know I can trust you to play all the way through every version.

[RedKnight]

My Shmup bring all the boys to the yard.
And they're like, it's better than yours
Damn right it's better than yours
I could teach you
But I have to charge.

2. There is already AABB/AABB and AABB/Elipse collision detection. Could you be more specific?

what does AABB stand for?

my mother used to call all action games shoot shoot, bang bang, because of their lack of intellectual depth.

Eh why do you have to think like your mother when your designing a game?

blah blah blah
You haven't explained how I have been boastful so I'm left to guess. I may have said something that were wrong
blah blah blah blah.

Yup you hijack my thread about my demo, just to boast yours"Shoot Shoot, Bang bang."
and btw.
Please don't call yourself a CEO .

And ...
I've played "SSBB" and I think it is kind of ... ...
I'll see how much you "WILL" improve your game, next week.

Oh yeah your game crashed at the Menu everytime I pressed the "spacebar"

[landshark]

what does AABB stand for?

Axis-Aligned Bounding-Box.

-----------------

Just d/l'd it at tried.

I like the menus. But PLEASE put text on them. When I clicked the exit button, I had no idea what came up nor which to click.

I spent about 2 minutes playing with the mouse cursor on the menus.

The mouse speed needs to be adjustable through the menus and needs to be cranked up higher as I constantly ran out of mouse pad.

Playing a 2 player game was interesting as I was using the keyboard and mouse at the same time but getting frustrated with the slow mouse.

The alpha blending on the sprites looks nice. Though you'll need to get different sprites. (programmer art? )

Your boss looked like it was using AABB collision and not elliptical.

[Darkcomet72]

It's times like this that I think I would've been too harsh a Moderator.

[landshark]

Oh - unless you switch to a completely western (wild wild west) style, I'd choose a different font for your score. Very strange for a shmup. Though, if you can get an artist to make some nice western art, that'd be interesting as it would almost take on a theme similar to progear.

[Aggrav8d]

AABB - Axially Aligned Bounding Box. Looks like a rectangle. as opposed to an unaligned bounding box which looks more like a diamond (because it has been rotated)

I getting the impression there aren't a lot of shmuppers who appreciate a joke.

boast: v. boast·ed, boast·ing, boasts v. intr. To glorify oneself in speech; talk in a self-admiring way; To speak of with excessive pride; The act or an instance of bragging.

I am not glorifying myself, but my game. I don't feel I am bragging. I'm promoting. I don't know what's wrong with the phrase CEO in it's present context, but I'm willing to drop it since it will make people happy. I've long been considered insufficiently humble and, frankly, that isn't my problem.

I guess I'm not up on forum politics, I wasn't aware what I did was considered a hijacking. I am sorry. I downloaded your game the moment you posted a link to it but I have not played it yet. I intend to give you some feeedback as soon as I finish the next version.

I've finished the code for v0.6.0 and now I'm working on level design (by far the hardest part for me). You said next week, not me

The only menu crash i'm aware of in 0.5.0 is if the "click" action occurs when the mouse cursor is over the moving background. the click action can be caused by the space bar, the joystick buttons, or the left mouse button. Does the crash still happen when the cursor is over the grey parts of the menu? If so please tell me your system specs so i can add it to me error report.

Again, I'm really sorry about the hijacking. I didn't intend to offend (anyone except maybe vagrant).

landshark - it's probably because i've been listening to the Cowboy Bebop OST and and watching too much Firefly.

[landshark]

I edited my post above - I'm guessing you didn't see it. I didn't think someone would post as I was editing and 2 people did. Here's the post again:

Just d/l'd it at tried.

I like the menus. But PLEASE put text on them. When I clicked the exit button, I had no idea what came up nor which to click.

I spent about 2 minutes playing with the mouse cursor on the menus.

The mouse speed needs to be adjustable through the menus and needs to be cranked up higher as I constantly ran out of mouse pad.

Playing a 2 player game was interesting as I was using the keyboard and mouse at the same time but getting frustrated with the slow mouse.

The alpha blending on the sprites looks nice. Though you'll need to get different sprites. (programmer art? )

Your boss looked like it was using AABB collision and not elliptical.

[Aggrav8d]

landshark - thanks for the feedback!

I deliberately avoided text on the buttons because i was trying to anticipate the headache of translating later. While I'm still inclined to avoid text I can tell that I have to work on which icons mean what.

(FYI the "exit" icon is symbol used in japan to indicate an emergency exit.)

I totally agree that the mouse control is irritating. I want to change it and joysticks to a binary system (it's either moving or it isn't, none of this sliding scale BS). But the fix for that is planned for v0.7.0, by which time i hope to have a joystick for some testing. I'm told the Joystick in 0.5.0 doesn't fly "down" but every other direction works.

It is most definitely programmer art. that's the biggest problem with making the new level 1 - everything is scripted, it just looks like garbage.

I don't recall off hand which coldet the boss was using. I just know i tested elipses some time ago.

Again, thank you!

[raiden]

I am not glorifying myself, but my game. I don't feel I am bragging. I'm promoting.

that might be what´s provoking some people. I´m not trying to defend the vagrant´s view, as he is obviously just trying to pick on you.

because of their lack of intellectual depth. And really, what could be more appropriate? You shoot things, they blow up.

if you really think shmups are lacking intellectual depth, you obviously haven´t played one seriously, and that severely limits the quality your game can achieve. Which, btw., is a problem most western shmups have, that´s where the resentment comes from. There are quite a few people in the software industry noticing a retro trend who just try to make a quick profit ("those simple games are easy to code") without understanding anything. I´m talking about games like Heli Heroes, Airstrike 3d or T-Zwei. They make their cash from people who just want a quick nostalgia excursion, but no one around here needs these games.

Seeing you consider leveldesign the biggest part of the work makes me think there´s hope for you game, though. Just one thing about playtesting: to get quality feedback, you need your updates to be rare and significant. Playtesting a shmup seriously takes a lot of time, and people won´t be willing to do it every week. So you should make sure to get your updates to be as good as you can by yourself, and only then release a new playtest version. If you don´t do that, you will receive less and less feedback.

[nullpointer]

raiden is spot on..
I think i even remeber us chatting about this when he was making bloodrain..
Level design is the make or break for a shmup!
The reason i managed to do endless fire in a shortish time is coz there is no level design! But then its designed that way as more of a shmup trainer or skills tester etc..
Ive spent more time over level design on my other project than any other aspect,,, Ikaruga is in my opinion probably one of the best conceived level designs of any shmup and I bet they spent weeks playtesting it.
You have to be aware of all the opportunities that each subsection of a level can offer and relate that to the scoring system of your game and also the specific weapons systems etc. Its hard work and like raiden says, games like airstrike and t-zwei dont really give a shit about it, and as a result are pretty shallow in terms of gameplay and replay..

hori games usually have obvious level design because of the landscape aspect and the set peices, but verts also have stage design , often more based on enemy waves as scoring potentials etc..
psyvariar 1+2 are brilliant examples of this.. almost every alien is part of a specific level design to allow buzz chaining etc.

It gets hard if you want to cater for 2 levels of play too.
In some games you might blast quickyl through a level when not playing for score, so some games have bonus lines etc. otherwise you can end up with some nasty gaps in your pacing etc..

anyway i could ramble on more about this but i gotta go now!

[Aggrav8d]

Raiden -

I'm glad you think there's hope for me. But I don't understand why you say well designed shmups have intellectual depth. I have yet to see one that involves a moral dilemma, a philisophical crisis, or something else that expands the mind. To date what I have seen is 'navigate the enemy bullet patterns and survive as long as possible' which is a combination of reflexes and memory, not problem solving. I don't add 'and kill everything' because some games (such as ikaruga) don't even require that you kill the bosses.

I'm glad you said that about vagrant, I was a little concerned that maybe it was just me.

I suppose this one week number began when i said i completed the first alpha in one week. since then updates have been further and further apart. This, I feel, is perfectly normal. It was a rude awakening to discover that there's a law of diminishing returns in video games. I think it's more commonly known as "when you're 90% done there's only 90% left to do."

[the2bears]

...I bet they spent weeks playtesting it....

I would hazard it was much more than that, all told. Given what I know (I'm in the industry) I would imagine overall QA was given equal time to development in the schedule.

I agree though, the design of the levels is IMP second to none.

Bill

[Darkcomet72]

Raiden: About a year ago, T-Zwei became Steel Saviour, and had a huge facelift in the gameplay department. I hated T-Zwei, but SS looks a bit more promising. Give it a try, You might still dislike it, though.

Aggrav8d: It seems that many people have different.. umm... defenitions of the intellectual depth in shmups. I think you should change the name not for Raiden's reason, but because the name represents your thought, and it might not appeal to other people here.

[raiden]

But I don't understand why you say well designed shmups have intellectual depth. I have yet to see one that involves a moral dilemma, a philisophical crisis, or something else that expands the mind. To date what I have seen is 'navigate the enemy bullet patterns and survive as long as possible' which is a combination of reflexes and memory, not problem solving.

have you thought about what your brain does while dodging those patterns? There are pretty complex geometrical calculations necessary to do that, even if it´s mostly done unconsciously. Also, try playing a modern shmup for score. Survival is not sufficient, you need a strategy that enables you get the most out of all scoring opportunities, but which you are also able to perform. That requires experimentation, practice, but also analysis, and certainly fits the term "problem solving". You don´t have to call it intellectual depth, but it´s certainly more than "Shoot, Shoot, Bang, Bang".
I have no aversions against the name of the game, in best case, it could be a nice understatement for the actual game. But what you said led me to believe it´s not just a joke, but your honest concept for the game, and in that case I´m about as excited about "the great new Tic Tac Toe game with improved AI".

About a year ago, T-Zwei became Steel Saviour, and had a huge facelift in the gameplay department. I hated T-Zwei, but SS looks a bit more promising. Give it a try, You might still dislike it, though.

yeah, I´ll try it. What´s 230mb anyway?

[nullpointer]

would you say tetris has intellectual depth..
I mean.. its just moving some falling blocks around

puzzle games and shmups are much closer than many people think..
they are both about repeat play, skill advancement, scoring strategies and hand-eye-brain challenge (the good ones that is!)

[Aggrav8d]

DarkComet72 - I think you're right. It might be too much of an inside joke.

Raiden - I agree that it is (I hope) understatement. I realize there are many SHMUP fans out there who will strategize and replay and work really hard to get the highest possible score. I myself am a lifetime member of Raiden Anonymous. However, I also believe the average player is just a twitch gamer looking for a 10-30 minute break.

Having said that, I want good level design and replay value. When I don't have any feedback my rule of thumb is "if i don't find it fun, they won't find it fun."

[TVG]

i would say tetris requires intellect, perhaps not the same intellect you people are reffering to, but tetris played well is amazing, and has a lot of improvisation on it.

i guess i qualify fast thinking as intellect, wich others may not.


on topic: i guess there isnt anything to be said that raiden hasnt said, he summed up quite well why i didnt like your shmup.

as for my rude manners, understand that coming into the guys thread advertizing your commercial game made me label you as an asshole, and your game was crappy on top of that (read:unfinished).

i guess everyone makes mistakes, so ill retract my judgement, dont need more forum shit anyways.

so if there's anything people could learn, is to wait a bit before releasing their demos.

one last note to every doujin game dev.
you cant judge your own game and be objective, believe me.

[highlandcattle]

I'm just waiting on the OSX version

with Anticipation

[Aggrav8d]

vagrant - why didn't you say that at the start?!

I completely agree with you about the objectivity. That's why I'm asking for feedback. I was trying to descibe what I do when I don't have any feedback. There have been projects I've worked on that the developers did not enjoy while they were making it and I think that had a major impact on the final outcome.

I'm torn here. I like releasing often - it makes me feel very productive and shows others how things progress. Some people like to blog about their work, I like to just show the work. But it is clear that is going to piss people off

highlandcattle - Monday i'm getting my hands on a machine that is supposed to be able to run OSX, I hope to do the port then. Then I have a choice:
1. Release OSX v0.6.0 at the same time as the other platform versions. ...which could be a couple of weeks because I'm so slow at designing levels.
2. Release OSX/Win32/Linux v0.5.8 that contains the latest executable, new GUI features, and the same old level data. ...which will please you but piss off people who prefer infrequent updates with bigger changes.

Personally I like (1) but I'll wait until after monday when I know if I can finally port the game or not. In the meantime...what do you think?

[Zweihander]

I tried it for a while, 'tis fun ^.^ my only advice would be make the hit box smaller. x_X other than that, you're off to a great start. ^_^

[Shatterhand]

Ok, I just got the game and played.

I'll second what Raiden said. You better try to only release "betas" when something important has changed.

I've made one PC shmup, and I am working in my 2nd. Space Disorder had only 3 releases before it was finished, and that took me a year to be done.

I am working in my current shmup now for like 1 year (Though for a big ammount of this time I didn't touch it..), and betas have been released only for choosen people (Development team and VERY close friends).

You don't need to be paranoic as me - I really don't like to show to other people my work when it's completely half-done (Be it a game or anything else) - but I think that's a good advice.

Besides this... the game needs to be FASTER. The game is so slow now, that I think having, say, 5 levels of that will make me sleep. It wouldn't matter too much what will be happening on screen, it will just make me sleep. I dunno if you want to do a slow shmup, as a diffferent approach to the genre, but as the way it is, it will end up to a very boring game.

Also, you need a smaller hitbox. I know you are going to correct this in the next version, I just wanted to tell ya. At this point, the boss managed to send me in some impossible situtations...

What kind of game are you trying to do? Like I said, for now , the game is feeling too damn boring.


Oh, and I had fun playing with the mouse cursor in the title screen. And good choice for music!

[Aggrav8d]

What you see in v0.5.0 is just a proof of tech. The hitboxes are too big, there are menu options missing, the artwork is horrid, and the sound effects were free.

so?

The reason v0.6.0 is taking so long is like you said - I'm trying to get the next version right instead of just working. The plan is to have just one level but even that requires the necessary tools & so on.