Will the PS3 ever get some shmups (outside of the PSN)??..

[Endymion]

I really think the multicore, asymmetrical design of the Cell was likely Sony's attempt to landmine development in a similar, artificial fashion as the PS2 had done in its market. I can totally understand why Sony wants everyone to write their code asymmetrically with 6 (or 7 depending on your count) SPEs and a central processor. It's because that code is never going to run well anywhere else. They were telling everyone to just make your stuff so it only runs on one of ours, and were betting ahead of time that they would have market share so high, that everybody would have to write code for their system. If the PS3 had turned out to dominate sales, this would have been their double-edged sword, making their code less portable and soaking up everybody's R&D budget. When so much investment is already spent getting the Cell performing, nobody would want to make the extra expenditure to standardize the code for symmetrical systems, I think the Cell paradigm is a lot closer to the "spaghetti" description honestly. Thankfully, both market influence with the PS3 coming in from behind as well as programmers' aggravation with their approach has prevented much of this.

[Motorherp]

It's because that code is never going to run well anywhere else.

Actualy it's completely the opposite. If you design your code in a modular fashion with good memory management as is required for the PS3 then that code will easily port to and run on traditional hardware architecture (in fact doing so will be beneficial). It just doesn't work well the other way around because code developed for traditional hardware achitecture tends to have lots of inter-dependancies between code modules (hence "spaghetti") and sloppy memory usage since these programs run on shared memory and rely heavily on the cache to soak up memory management problems.

[Endymion]

It's because that code is never going to run well anywhere else.

Actualy it's completely the opposite. If you design your code in a modular fashion with good memory management as is required for the PS3 then that code will easily port to and run on traditional hardware architecture (in fact doing so will be beneficial).

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but the code that the SPEs operate just isn't going to work in any other environment without that hardware.

Edit: Gabe Newell agrees, with the state of things he's not alone. The SPEs are too specialised to work in general code. It's hard enough as it is to feed them well for the purposes they serve. Any code that it operates is going to be completely new code even if it serves the same function in another environment. Sony's poor libraries and documentation exacerbated issues.

[Motorherp]

You make it sound as if they run specialised code. They dont. It's just standard C++, the same stuff that will compile and run on a CPU. I've written code myself which compiles and then runs on both SPU and PPU depending on which is available first, the exact same code.

The reason ports will work one way easily but not the other is because the PS3 code needs to be modularised so that it can be split up to run on seperate processing units with their own local memory storages rather than just one big shared system. I suppose a suitable analogy would be, imagine the PS3 to be like lots of small boxes where as the 360 is one big box with the same combined volume. You can fit the PS3 boxes into the one big 360 box easily, but you cant fit the one big 360 box into the smaller PS3 boxes without breaking it up first. The problem is that most programs for traditional hardware are written so that they're not easy to break up in this way.

Edit: Also you're taking your references from old sources. The PS3 libraries have improved significantly since then.

Edit edit: Wow, just finished watching the whole clip and you really did just repeat all those guys opinions and pass them off as your own didn't you? The dude himself admits he's never written a single line of multi-threaded code, I mean how are taking this seriously? I do agree with some of his points though, for example where he says there's few programmers who can handle the PS3 architecture well. At the time I'm sure that was pretty much the case, after all this was a completely new architecture nobody had dealt with before and the learning curve was steep. The situation is much different now though. It doesn't take too long to get into the correct mode of working for PS3 once you get some experience with it and much of the SPU job delegation and so forth is now pretty much automated with the new Sony libraries. Things are much better now. All that stuff about the code not working anywhere else and that being Sony's big master plan is all complete bullshit though.

[MJR]

Ok, I gotcha. I wonder what brought Housemarque out of the woodwork, so to speak to make Super Stardust HD?

They were approached by team17 just at the time of their career when they had not had any luck with publishing contracts for many years. Guys at Team17 introduced them to Sony, and rest is history. SSD HD kind of saved them. Now they are working on another PSN game, but it's not a shooter.

By the way, they've been praising PS3's architecture the whole time when they developed them. And these guys really know how to code.

They would love to do a retail version of Stardust, but that's more up to Sony than them. I have no idea if that is going to happen.

[dave4shmups]

Ok, I gotcha. I wonder what brought Housemarque out of the woodwork, so to speak to make Super Stardust HD?

They were approached by team17 just at the time of their career when they had not had any luck with publishing contracts for many years. Guys at Team17 introduced them to Sony, and rest is history. SSD HD kind of saved them. Now they are working on another PSN game, but it's not a shooter.

By the way, they've been praising PS3's architecture the whole time when they developed them. And these guys really know how to code.

They would love to do a retail version of Stardust, but that's more up to Sony than them. I have no idea if that is going to happen.

Interesting. @Motorherp, I understand (sort of) what you're saying, but won't there always be companies that just don't want to deal with the Cell processor? And could that damage the PS3 so much that Sony won't be able to make it ten years?

[manaka]

About a year ago OXM did a small 'where does your $60 go' thing, the breakdown was as such:

Retailer Cut: $12
Microsoft Licensing and Manufacturing: $12
Marketing: $7
Development Costs: $20
Publisher Overhead: $9

Wrong, those breakups are for large-scale games. They hold almost no meaning for small-time developers or small-scale games. They hold even less meaning with MS Japan supposedly lowering licensing costs in an effort to encourage smaller devs exactly like the ones that do shmups to 'Jump In.'

In reference to the topic, it's pretty clear why there's a lack of shmups on the PS3 at the moment... when you have large shmup houses putting their back into the 360, everyone else wants a piece of that userbase will follow suit. You can thank G.rev for starting it all with SnR, and Cave/Treasure for carrying it to where it is now.

[Inkvisitor]

I think PSN is the whole reason we don't see any retail releases. It obsoletes discswapping and makes me more likely to pick up on a game I havn't touched in a while. And instead of paying 50$ I'm paying 10$. On top of that I get them on releaseday. I can buy them directly from the US store, no more waiting, no more expensive international shipping.

And apparently PSN isn't just for smaller games, soon you can download a game that was previously retail only (Burnout Paradise). PS3 needs the same feature 360 recently added, importing games from CD to harddrive.

So I'm not sure a physical copy is better. Sure, I like to place them in my bookshelf, but space is starting to run out. And in the unlikely event the store closes down I can make a backup. Burn that to a CD for safekeeping. It's more likely they stop supporting the hardware, if my SNES breaks Nintendo is not going to fix it.

With PS2 everyone talked about getting a harddrive to save their lasers. Now that PS3 has one we're back to wanting CDs so we can wear it out?

[Motorherp]

Interesting. @Motorherp, I understand (sort of) what you're saying, but won't there always be companies that just don't want to deal with the Cell processor? And could that damage the PS3 so much that Sony won't be able to make it ten years?

Well I cant comment with any authority on their behalf, I'm not a Sony pen pusher I'm just a games programmer. The impression I got though was that it was certainly a consideration for Sony when they designed the PS3 but they figured their popularity and good relations with dev studios would see them through the teething period and into the clear. It seems to have worked out for them, after all I'm not aware of any multi-platform franchises which have dumped the PS3 for their next title based on the Cell. I think you have to keep in mind also that Sony is a large electronics company, not just a console manufacturer. Their plans for Cell technology go well beyond the PS3 or just consoles in general.

[dave4shmups]

Interesting. @Motorherp, I understand (sort of) what you're saying, but won't there always be companies that just don't want to deal with the Cell processor? And could that damage the PS3 so much that Sony won't be able to make it ten years?

Well I cant comment with any authority on their behalf, I'm not a Sony pen pusher I'm just a games programmer. The impression I got though was that it was certainly a consideration for Sony when they designed the PS3 but they figured their popularity and good relations with dev studios would see them through the teething period and into the clear. It seems to have worked out for them, after all I'm not aware of any multi-platform franchises which have dumped the PS3 for their next title based on the Cell. I think you have to keep in mind also that Sony is a large electronics company, not just a console manufacturer. Their plans for Cell technology go well beyond the PS3 or just consoles in general.

I see your point, although John Carmack isn't a fan of PS3 development:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6195274.ht ... ws;title;0

Although that's just one guy, loosing ID's support might hurt the PS3. And really, that's what concerns me, are developers that choose the 360 over the PS3 because it's (evidently) easier to program for.

[Mortificator]

Well, it was the same case to a degree with the PS2. I remember the mags at the time of its release talked about how designers were worried about how tough it was to work on. Munch's Oddysee is one game I remember that jumped to Xbox for that reason, with an Oddworld guy saying in an interview that the PS2 was "a bitch" to program for.

Sony's in a worse position in the market now than they were eight years ago, though.

[-Bridget-]

I think PSN is the whole reason we don't see any retail releases. It obsoletes discswapping and makes me more likely to pick up on a game I havn't touched in a while. And instead of paying 50$ I'm paying 10$. On top of that I get them on releaseday. I can buy them directly from the US store, no more waiting, no more expensive international shipping.

And apparently PSN isn't just for smaller games, soon you can download a game that was previously retail only (Burnout Paradise). PS3 needs the same feature 360 recently added, importing games from CD to harddrive.

So I'm not sure a physical copy is better. Sure, I like to place them in my bookshelf, but space is starting to run out. And in the unlikely event the store closes down I can make a backup. Burn that to a CD for safekeeping. It's more likely they stop supporting the hardware, if my SNES breaks Nintendo is not going to fix it.

With PS2 everyone talked about getting a harddrive to save their lasers. Now that PS3 has one we're back to wanting CDs so we can wear it out?

Agreed.

It's not that there arent shmups; it's that there arent RETAIL shmups.


But.... do there really need to be?

I've got, I think 4 shmups on mine, including Everyday Shooter and Stardust, and quite happy with all of them.

And of course, VERY glad to only have to pay, what, 10 bucks, if that, for these, instead of the 50-60 it would need for retail?



And I also heartily agree with whoever said the Wii is a freak of nature.

The PS3 and 360 sell like they should; to people who actually have an interest in gaming.

The Wii? I sell games at my job, and I've seen people buy the accursed thing *only* for Wii Sports. They've no intention of buying ANYTHING ELSE EVER. That means they just paid 250, probably over 300 considering the overpriced remotes, for *one* game that isnt worth squat, as I see it. Which you KNOW they probably will use like once or twice, and then it collects dust for the rest of forever. Or the damnable Wii Fit. And the irritating existence of Wii Music, the third in this unholy trinity, is just going to make this all that much worse.

I bought the blasted thing for Brawl, and have numerous other games for it..... and direct opposite to Nintendo's idea, everything I have is "hardcore" stuff like Baroque or Shiki 3...... but I still generally hate the damn thing. Usually avoid "Wiimote-waving" games like the plague.

I hate Nintendo, I really do......

[Strider77]

But.... do there really need to be?

doesn't matter if they need to be or not.... what matters is that there is nothing out that's worth jumping up and down for yet shooter wise on PS3.

I'd prefer retail discs though.

[dave4shmups]

I think PSN is the whole reason we don't see any retail releases. It obsoletes discswapping and makes me more likely to pick up on a game I havn't touched in a while. And instead of paying 50$ I'm paying 10$. On top of that I get them on releaseday. I can buy them directly from the US store, no more waiting, no more expensive international shipping.

And apparently PSN isn't just for smaller games, soon you can download a game that was previously retail only (Burnout Paradise). PS3 needs the same feature 360 recently added, importing games from CD to harddrive.

So I'm not sure a physical copy is better. Sure, I like to place them in my bookshelf, but space is starting to run out. And in the unlikely event the store closes down I can make a backup. Burn that to a CD for safekeeping. It's more likely they stop supporting the hardware, if my SNES breaks Nintendo is not going to fix it.

With PS2 everyone talked about getting a harddrive to save their lasers. Now that PS3 has one we're back to wanting CDs so we can wear it out?

Agreed.

It's not that there arent shmups; it's that there arent RETAIL shmups.


But.... do there really need to be?

I've got, I think 4 shmups on mine, including Everyday Shooter and Stardust, and quite happy with all of them.

And of course, VERY glad to only have to pay, what, 10 bucks, if that, for these, instead of the 50-60 it would need for retail?



And I also heartily agree with whoever said the Wii is a freak of nature.

The PS3 and 360 sell like they should; to people who actually have an interest in gaming.

The Wii? I sell games at my job, and I've seen people buy the accursed thing *only* for Wii Sports. They've no intention of buying ANYTHING ELSE EVER. That means they just paid 250, probably over 300 considering the overpriced remotes, for *one* game that isnt worth squat, as I see it. Which you KNOW they probably will use like once or twice, and then it collects dust for the rest of forever. Or the damnable Wii Fit. And the irritating existence of Wii Music, the third in this unholy trinity, is just going to make this all that much worse.

I bought the blasted thing for Brawl, and have numerous other games for it..... and direct opposite to Nintendo's idea, everything I have is "hardcore" stuff like Baroque or Shiki 3...... but I still generally hate the damn thing. Usually avoid "Wiimote-waving" games like the plague.

I hate Nintendo, I really do......

As I've said before, I miss my Wii. I got $500 for it and games, but I had 6 great games with it and would get another one in a hearbeat. I bought a PSP, but even with the import shmups, there's about 3 games in the next year that I even care about that are coming out for it. Star Ocean First Departure, Resistance PSP, and Super Stardust PSP. Aside from those 6 games, there are rail shooters, and the VC. So DON'T get rid of it, or any other console you have, or you will regret it. I'm not getting rid of my PSP for that reason.

At any rate, almost 3 years into the PS2's life-span, there were a lot more games for it then there are for the PS3 at this point. The loss of so many Square-Enix games and even the Ace Combat series just blows my mind. I'm very disappointed with the PS3 so far.

[dave4shmups]

Yes, Sony does have plans for the cell beyond the PS3:

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/914/914584p ... Sid=914584

[Zweihander]

Also, please note that the Wii has sold like fucking hot cakes in Japan. Millions of them. Its the dominate console there. But Shikigami no Shiro III sold FOUR TIMES as many copies on the 360 in Japan.

That is a pretty interesting point (assuming it's accurate). Kind of makes sense though. Wii appeals to everyone, gamers and non-gamers alike. 360 just appeals to more serious gamers.

People in Japan probably bought the 360 version of Shiki 3 instead of the Wii version, in an attempt to justify their purchase of a 360 after running out to buy it for Ace Combat 6, lol.

Not to diss the 360; it's a good console, especially with the Falcon chipset now. I personally wish there were more Japanese must-haves for it; the Xbox got some greats like Panzer Dragoon Orta, Steel Battalion, and the Otogi titles; 360 got Ace Combat 6, Tales of Vesperia, Earth Defense Force 2017, Beautiful Katamari, Idolmaster, and some disappointments like Bullet Witch. Still, it doesn't seem like the console has much to offer Japanese gamers. Hopefully some doujin shooters will be made for the Japanese XBLA, and eventually be localized. For what it's worth, we got some arcade ports like Triggerheart Exelica, and Ikaruga in hi-def, so really, anything is possible, perhaps more likely than some of the skeptical among us would believe (myself included).

[manaka]

Still, it doesn't seem like the console has much to offer Japanese gamers.

As opposed to the other two consoles which have tones to offer Japanese gamers at the moment?

[Gungriffon Geona]

You'll get a PS3 shmup, but don't expect it anytime soon, I'd think.