What does religion have to say about copyright?

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm surprised Ceph hasn't seagulled this topic by now (flown in, shat all over everything, screeched, and flown out).

People need to pay more attention to JoshF's posts here.

Also I like Daedalus's posts; he don't get no respect, though. The only thing I disagree with is the "intention to buy" thing, since most people will take a freebie when it's available. Of course, the RIAA and Apple and Our Other Benefactors are doing their best to put a stop to the funtimes.

[Daedalus]

every time i see one of your posts, it's either to do with copyright laws, or you trying to shoe-horn the subject into the conversation

Probably because this topic, which I didn't create, is about piracy. What else did you expect?

would you say (for example) downloading an illegal version of whatever is the newest hottest pc game is better or worse than stealing a mars bar?

Better. With the PC game, they have at lost at most the potential revenue from selling it to you. This assumes that you would have bought the game had you not pirated it.

With the stolen mars bar, they not only lose the potential revenue from selling it to you. They also lose the fixed costs from creating the bar (From the manufacture of this particular bar - this is not analogous with variable game development costs). And finally, they lose the ability to sell that particular mars bar to anyone else.

The only thing I disagree with is the "intention to buy" thing, since most people will take a freebie when it's available.

I don't know about that. Certainly many will take a freebie, but many people (myself included) have the access and knowledge to pirate most things but choose not to.

I buy most of my games - a host of benefits come with owning a legitimate copy. Although I do buy many console games used, which deprives the IP holders of their income all the same :-p

Pretty much the only games I pirate are those where there is an enormous cost to acquire it - for example, artificial barriers such as region restriction. Or expensive OOP titles ($150 for Dragon Force? Hell no.)

[Ed Oscuro]

What it comes down to is that temporary copy protection (i.e. Bioshock's) is probably a necessary evil, and there needs to be a better and more flexible resale/vending channel than eBay (oh god buying BF2142 and The Club on eBay has been a returning nightmare for me, CD/product keys) or the company store. Something like GameTap or whatever that other service like GT is called.

[Stormwatch]

I know two Asian people who are fasting right now for ramadam or whatever its called.

Dude, they're not asians. They're MUSLIMS.

Wut

Look, here's an asian and a muslim. Completely different creatures, see?

~

[MX7]

Dude, they're not asians. They're MUSLIMS.

Wut

Look, here's an asian and a muslim. Completely different creatures, see?

~

So Pakistan is full of ninjas?

[Taylor]

"Many" isn't the word to use. The amount of people buying games legitimately are the minority, when Iron Lore Entertainment died it blamed piracy and claimed a 90% piracy-rate. When CoD4 was released for PC they were astounded by the amount of pirated copies. They didn't release the figures, but it's clear the situation was bad. And let's not forget places like Brazil, China and Korea , Hong Kong, Paraguay and Mexico (which Nintendo mentioned specifically). There are similar statements from Crytek and Epic, though these can also be attributed to hardware requirements and I think the point has been made.

I am curious to why the $50 million the publisher pumped into the project, hoping to make a return and profit, does not factor into a loss. Oh, and I would not be surprised if a Mars Bar has a better profit return on manufacturing costs, though that was a rather frivolous analogy to begin with.

[Lordstar]

Wut

Look, here's an asian and a muslim. Completely different creatures, see?

~

So Pakistan is full of ninjas?

that be the biggest whitest non asian ninja ive seen today.

[Stormwatch]

Asian people, Asiatic or Asian Continental Ancestry Group is a demonym for people from Asia. However, the use of the term varies by country and person, often referring to people from a particular region or subregion of Asia. Though it may be based on residence, it is also often considered a "racial group" or an ethnic group.

In the United States, Canada, and Australia, the term refers most commonly to people of predominantly East Asian, South Asian, and Southeast Asian ancestry; however, in the United Kingdom and Anglophone Africa, the term refers most commonly to South Asians. In other countries, the term is applied to all people from Asia in general. In the US, however, Middle Eastern and Central Asian people are usually not considered Asian peoples. ...

The Oxford English Dictionary, states that Asian is used in North America to refer to people originating from East Asia like China, Japan, Korea, etc. ...

In English parlance, Western Asians like Jews, Iranians and Arabs, and the Central Asians of the former Soviet Republics are not referred to as "Asian" by United States government agencies.

[Lordstar]

[Daedalus]

"Many" isn't the word to use. The amount of people buying games legitimately are the minority, when Iron Lore Entertainment died it blamed piracy and claimed a 90% piracy-rate. When CoD4 was released for PC they were astounded by the amount of pirated copies. They didn't release the figures, but it's clear the situation was bad. And let's not forget places like Brazil, China and Korea , Hong Kong, Paraguay and Mexico (which Nintendo mentioned specifically). There are similar statements from Crytek and Epic, though these can also be attributed to hardware requirements and I think the point has been made.

Ahahahaha, what a terrible argument.

First, you quote Iron Lore Entertainment as an example of how piracy kills companies. The evidence piracy killed the company is... the creative director saying so by pulling pie-in-the-sky 90% piracy rates. It certainly had nothing to do with the fact that Titan Quest was a mediocre, poorly marketed game. Oh no. And you forget to mention he goes on to say that it was the hardware manufacturers' fault, and the reviewers' fault. Seems like he's blaming everybody but himself.

You then use Call of Duty 4 as an example of piracy run rampant. I hope the developers don't starve... let's see how viciously they were hurt by it:

It was the top-selling game worldwide for 2007, reaching over seven million copies as of January 2008

Wait... did you just use the Best selling game of 2007 as an example of the evils of piracy? While I'm sure the actual programmers are salaried, the execs will now be forced to live a live of only semi-luxury. And ultimately, the article is worthless because they can't come up with even a ballpark estimate of pirated copies. It just says they were "astounded".

You go on to talk about Nintendo's woes. Yes, the same Nintendo that has been constantly raking in cash for both the hardware and software for their console. You actually bring up a valid concern here, although it doesn't really relate to the argument. The article you quotes from Brazil says that piracy is flourishing... due to vendors illegally hawking pirated wars. I would normally agree in aggressive enforcement here, but you quote a special case. The playstation was not even released in Brazil - You can hardly bitch about lost income in a market you didn't even target. On top of that, onerous taxes raise the price of games to $98 new? You can hardly blame them.

As far as markets the games are actually released in... if you can find some actual evidence pirates are in the majority, I'd honestly be interested in seeing it. Until then, your pie-in-the-sky arguments will remain hilarious yet terribly flawed.

I am curious to why the $50 million the publisher pumped into the project, hoping to make a return and profit, does not factor into a loss. Oh, and I would not be surprised if a Mars Bar has a better profit return on manufacturing costs, though that was a rather frivolous analogy to begin with.

$50 million is a little excessive.

It's not a cost per unit, and you're dealing with a whole different beast. If you really want to include it, I would say piracy no longer incurs a loss once the company has reached the breakeven point.

[MX7]

Asian people, Asiatic or Asian Continental Ancestry Group is a demonym for people from Asia. However, the use of the term varies by country and person, often referring to people from a particular region or subregion of Asia. Though it may be based on residence, it is also often considered a "racial group" or an ethnic group.

In the United States, Canada, and Australia, the term refers most commonly to people of predominantly East Asian, South Asian, and Southeast Asian ancestry; however, in the United Kingdom and Anglophone Africa, the term refers most commonly to South Asians. In other countries, the term is applied to all people from Asia in general. In the US, however, Middle Eastern and Central Asian people are usually not considered Asian peoples. ...

The Oxford English Dictionary, states that Asian is used in North America to refer to people originating from East Asia like China, Japan, Korea, etc. ...

In English parlance, Western Asians like Jews, Iranians and Arabs, and the Central Asians of the former Soviet Republics are not referred to as "Asian" by United States government agencies.

That's interesting. In the U.K, like the article suggests, the term 'Asian' refers to to a south Asian person. Thus the BBC Asian Network is a radio station that plays bhangra rather than Canto-Pop, and the jazz mag 'Asian Babes' features naked Indian women, while typing the title of the magazine into Google image search yeilds very different results.

What's interesting, though slightly worrying, is that in the U.K at least, the term 'Chinese' literally refers to all east Asian people. However this isn't just ignorant people down the pub. On forms and papers where it gives you the option to disclose your racial, there is no option for any east Asian nationality apart from 'Chinese', just variations such as 'British Chinese'. It seems to be so accepted, that I know quite a few East Asian people who are not Chinese that refer to themselves as Chinese while in the U.K. This is presumably so as not to confuse our fragile minds

[Stormwatch]

and the jazz mag 'Asian Babes' features naked Indian women

Weird, I'd expect a "jazz mag" to be about jazz!



By the way, I've seen some pics of that kind, and... well... let's just say my definition of "asian" has the aesthetical advantage.

[Lordstar]

Asian people, Asiatic or Asian Continental Ancestry Group is a demonym for people from Asia. However, the use of the term varies by country and person, often referring to people from a particular region or subregion of Asia. Though it may be based on residence, it is also often considered a "racial group" or an ethnic group.

In the United States, Canada, and Australia, the term refers most commonly to people of predominantly East Asian, South Asian, and Southeast Asian ancestry; however, in the United Kingdom and Anglophone Africa, the term refers most commonly to South Asians. In other countries, the term is applied to all people from Asia in general. In the US, however, Middle Eastern and Central Asian people are usually not considered Asian peoples. ...

The Oxford English Dictionary, states that Asian is used in North America to refer to people originating from East Asia like China, Japan, Korea, etc. ...

In English parlance, Western Asians like Jews, Iranians and Arabs, and the Central Asians of the former Soviet Republics are not referred to as "Asian" by United States government agencies.

That's interesting. In the U.K, like the article suggests, the term 'Asian' refers to to a south Asian person. Thus the BBC Asian Network is a radio station that plays bhangra rather than Canto-Pop, and the jazz mag 'Asian Babes' features naked Indian women, while typing the title of the magazine into Google image search yeilds very different results.

What's interesting, though slightly worrying, is that in the U.K at least, the term 'Chinese' literally refers to all east Asian people. However this isn't just ignorant people down the pub. On forms and papers where it gives you the option to disclose your racial, there is no option for any east Asian nationality apart from 'Chinese', just variations such as 'British Chinese'. It seems to be so accepted, that I know quite a few East Asian people who are not Chinese that refer to themselves as Chinese while in the U.K. This is presumably so as not to confuse our fragile minds

I recall coming back from Hong Kong when I was about 11 and my friend introducing me to another friend who had pakistan born parents, We were chatting about things as you do and where our parents hailed from came up. I became really confused when my new pakistani freind declared he was asian. To me Asians were Koreans, Japanese Chinese thai and malaysian. Dont get me wrong in Hong Kong they had indians and Pakistanis but they were called just that and were not considred "asian"

[sven666]

It's not "creative justification" - you just lack the intelligence to understand the way things are.

Your analogy is incorrect, by the way. If you "shuffle the 1s and 0s" on the bank, you're messing with somebody else's hardware. You completely ignore the "own hardware" bit which was really central to the argument.

Seriously, I don't get how people can be this stupid. If you understood and disagreed, that would be fine. But you can't even understand the post you're trying to argue against.

haha

[Lordstar]

I belive the piracy is still not the mainstream. If it was actual high street shops dedicated to games would not exist and places like amazon and other online retailers would exclusivley sell digital product/downloads. If there was little to no profit companies like EA and Microsoft would just stop making the software.

I still belive that in a religious stance unless your stealing bread to feed yourself and familly (that does not include putting jelly/jam on) then your a thief in the eyes of god (if one so exists)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDD_8Yti ... re=related

[mjclark]

Oooerr!...the whole premise of this thread is decidedly dodgy- to suggest that members of one religious community pirate more software than another is just inflammatory bigotry. We all know lots of people (religious,agnostic and atheist) who do lots of dubious things and they do that cos they're people not because of their religion.
Making racist stereotypes became socially unacceptable back in the '80s and I hope that it's unacceptable on this forum too...
...Ha ha-what a topic

[benstylus]

i always love the creative ways pirates try to justify themselves.. better than watching COPS

Almost as sad as the valley girlz using their economic circumstances to insist moral superiority.

just because someone is better than you doesn't mean they're not right

Anyway, I don't know why so many of you pirates here like to argue that stealing and piracy are different things - it's a moot issue since both both are equally illegal.

If you don't like the fact that it's illegal, and you disagree with copyright law as it currently stands, do something about it. Hiding behind a wall of internet anonymity while pirating only serves to bolster the argument that copyright laws need to be stronger.

Instead, try getting actively involved to change the laws, or be like Gandhi and be public with your civil disobedience. Yes, you'll probably spend some time in jail, maybe be subject to heavy fines... but if your cause is important enough, then are you willing to put your livelihood on the line?

If it's not that important to you, then maybe you're in the wrong.

[MR_Soren]

I'm surprised Ceph hasn't seagulled this topic by now (flown in, shat all over everything, screeched, and flown out).

Of course, the RIAA and Apple and Our Other Benefactors are doing their best to put a stop to the funtimes.

I don't like Apple being lumped in with the RIAA. Apple is opposed to DRM and frequently fights with the record companies. They have very liberal restrictions compared to other music download services, and they have never taken any actions to stop people from using pirated music obtained elsewhere.

[Daedalus]

Anyway, I don't know why so many of you pirates here like to argue that stealing and piracy are different things - it's a moot issue since both both are equally illegal.

If you don't like the fact that it's illegal, and you disagree with copyright law as it currently stands, do something about it. Hiding behind a wall of internet anonymity while pirating only serves to bolster the argument that copyright laws need to be stronger.

Instead, try getting actively involved to change the laws, or be like Gandhi and be public with your civil disobedience. Yes, you'll probably spend some time in jail, maybe be subject to heavy fines...

Not necessarily moot. While the legality of it is obvious, the ethical view is apparently not.

I don't know what makes you think anyone is hiding behind a wall of internet anonymity. I do what I can - Voting, contacting elected officials, and yes, changing public perception is part of the political process. If I can form a persuasive argument here, maybe I can convince a few other people. But I'm only one man in a land of 300 million.

Also: Gandhi-style civil disobedience only works if you do it on the verge of political change. And you don't go to jail or get fined for copyright infringement (unless it's on a commercial scale). It's generally covered as a tort in civil court.

but if your cause is important enough, then are you willing to put your livelihood on the line?

If it's not that important to you, then maybe you're in the wrong.

Ah, arrogance.

Maybe your life isn't as valuable as mine, but I see no need to throw it away on a single pet issue. Equal rights, better economic policy, advancement of science, and abolishment of religion are all personal visions of mine. But if I'm willing to risk it all for one of them, it's quite likely I won't be fighting for any of them. You know, there's a famous quote...

"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."

[Taylor]

The point these companies have lots of money is entirely moot. The examples were the easiest to hand, and illustrated how high the piracy rates are, thus disqualifying your statement that “many” people didn't pirate. Of course I did largely imply piracy trends are fractal, which could have been debatable. Though I think a higher fan ratio on smaller companies would not tip the scale massively, and honestly I've lost interest in this whole tirade after witnessing the level of debate this is going to operate at.

Yes, development cost does have to be accessed different. The implied point was that ignoring them comes to erroneous conclusion. And while basic accountancy says a piracy doesn't cause a loss when the company has broken even, the amount of profit they get largely dictates all future endeavours. i.e. publishers aren't in the business to break even.

[benstylus]

[I don't know what makes you think anyone is hiding behind a wall of internet anonymity. I do what I can - Voting, contacting elected officials, and yes, changing public perception is part of the political process. If I can form a persuasive argument here, maybe I can convince a few other people. But I'm only one man in a land of 300 million.

And which candidates have you voted for that ran on an "anti-copyright" campaign?

What sort of contact have you done with elected officials? Send them a letter saying, Dear sir, I believe copyright law sucks. Can we fix it?

As for a persuasive argument, there is no such thing on the internet. Everyone is completely bullheaded and set in their ways here because there's no negative consequence to doing so, and thus no incentive to do otherwise.

Maybe your life isn't as valuable as mine, but I see no need to throw it away on a single pet issue. Equal rights, better economic policy, advancement of science, and abolishment of religion are all personal visions of mine. But if I'm willing to risk it all for one of them, it's quite likely I won't be fighting for any of them. You know, there's a famous quote...

"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one."

There are other famous quotes as well...

"A man without a cause worth dying for is not fit to live." —Martin Luther King, Jr

I consider all life to be extremely valuable, but if giving mine is what it would take to accomplish something far more valuable, I would not hesitate. OK, I probably would hesitate, but I like to think that I would still go through with it.

[Daedalus]

illustrated how high the piracy rates are, thus disqualifying your statement that “many” people didn't pirate.

Wrong, you illustrated no such thing. I hate to repeat myself, but if you can find some concrete numbers I'll listen to you. Until then, quoting some developer saying he was "astounded" at the number of pirated copies does not illustrate how high piracy rates are.



Benstylus - Note that MLK didn't take any unnecessary risks. Having a worthy cause and jumping in front of a bus are two entirely different things.

But I'll humor you for a minute. Since you seem skeptical of my way of doing things, what would you suggest one do?

[Michaelm]

If say a video game programmer slogs away for 18 months at 40 hours a week should he not be rewarded for his efforts? Wouldn't those extra bucks help secure his job?

Normally the programmer gets a monthly wage and even if he excels in what he does this is no guarantee that he will keep his job.
People get sacked everyday and most of the time it isn't due to funds.
So I have no problem at all copying about cause it wont change anything in terms of rewards going to where they belong. Rewards go to the staff and not necessarily the creator of what created the rewards.
If you want things to change, start there where it actually matters.

[jpj]

If I can form a persuasive argument here, maybe I can convince a few other people.

score: 0

if you can find some concrete numbers I'll listen to you

do you think concrete numbers of this type of problem even exist? it would be incredibly hard to do - because of the size of the problem

and what about scenarios like C&C3, where the cracked version was available on torrent 2 weeks before the retail version hit the shelves? after 1 day, it had 100k downloads on bittorrent

(the only good thing about piracy is that it's hammering pc gaming into the ground )

every time i see one of your posts, it's either to do with copyright laws, or you trying to shoe-horn the subject into the conversation

don't you get bored?

[Daedalus]

do you think concrete numbers of this type of problem even exist? it would be incredibly hard to do - because of the size of the problem

and what about scenarios like C&C3, where the cracked version was available on torrent 2 weeks before the retail version hit the shelves? after 1 day, it had 100k downloads on bittorrent

It's not my concern whether concrete numbers exist. He shouldn't say something like "the majority of games are pirates" without any actual evidence to back it up.

Also, it's kind of foolish to suggest that concrete numbers don't exist and then immediately pull out one of these mythical numbers.

Trolling me is really no substitute for a good argument




I've got a couple thoughts on the "piracy threat" in general. It seems that there are two kinds of companies: The larger development and publishing groups (The kinds of people that make the games everyone knows about) and then the independent developers (creators of Braid, Dominions, etc). The larger companies publish games on a level that isn't impacted by piracy, and independent developers usually have a devoted fanbase that can afford and is happy to buy their games.

In addition, if we are representative of the world at large, it does not lend much support for the threat of piracy either. Even I, the most vocal anti-copyright person here, buy nearly all of my games.

I'm reminded of a game I really loved - Otogi 2. One of the best games to come out for the original xbox. Its sales were sub-par, which killed the planned sequel. It's tempting to use piracy as a scapegoat for the games that don't make it, but in reality those that didn't sell always suffered from worse problems than piracy. Even if you could wipe out piracy in a day, it wouldn't change a thing from our perspective. The underperformers will always get cut, and the outperformers will always get sequels.

As long as video games are being made and the video game industry is thriving, there is zero reason to blame piracy. Far from the "starving artist" illusions people try to propagate, the reality is that it's a good business. Programmers and artists are getting paid(It's important to note they get paid regardless of the game's success), and the company is getting a return on its investments. EA will always try to scrape out a couple more bucks, but so will any company. If you buy into the "unethical copying" argument, you're just becoming a volunteer lobbyist for the VG industry - not leading some grand quest for justice.

[Ed Oscuro]

To sum up the pieratcy argument:

I have two copies of The Club sitting on this desk, to my left. Obviously piracy didn't win this time.

I'm surprised Ceph hasn't seagulled this topic by now (flown in, shat all over everything, screeched, and flown out).

Of course, the RIAA and Apple and Our Other Benefactors are doing their best to put a stop to the funtimes.

I don't like Apple being lumped in with the RIAA. Apple is opposed to DRM and frequently fights with the record companies. They have very liberal restrictions compared to other music download services, and they have never taken any actions to stop people from using pirated music obtained elsewhere.

Oh noez.

Apple isn't that bad, but they're control freaks when it comes to user experience. "It must be done the Apple way so...no user written programs on the iPhone." I'm going OT here, but even if Google's phone system may be crap, you'll be able to write your own stuff for it.

[jpj]

Also, it's kind of foolish to suggest that concrete numbers don't exist and then immediately pull out one of these mythical numbers.

what are you on about? i stated how many times the game had been downloaded from *one source*. i cannot give you a number on how many have been pirated *total* from all sources, even for a short period of time, and how many copies each of the pirates then made themselves.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

They almost have a point, it has nothing to do with copyrighted numbers, it has everything to do with copyrighted patterns in memory. Memory is not really numbers so much as switches. The law permits copyrighting a pattern of switch positions. Not numbers.

[Daedalus]

Apple isn't that bad, but they're control freaks when it comes to user experience. "It must be done the Apple way so...no user written programs on the iPhone." I'm going OT here, but even if Google's phone system may be crap, you'll be able to write your own stuff for it.

Yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of the way Apple does things. I assume you're familiar with their recent rejection of Podcaster for "duplication of functionality"?

http://daringfireball.net/2008/09/app_store_exclusion

Apple also apparently has contractual prohibitions preventing developers from saying they've been rejected. That's pretty bad...

http://www.osnews.com/story/20321/Apple ... on_Notices

[captpain]

this is an unbelievably juvenile and aspergers-shut-in-crazy way to look at this issue. You don't own something that people make their living from, you get it without paying, you are stealing.

Ugh.

If you copy something that you had no intention of buying, how is that stealing? You did not deprive them of physical property. You also did not deprive them of potential income. So what exactly is one "stealing"? The artist loses nothing simply because you have a copy of their work.


Copyright law exists to benefit society by giving people an incentive to create more stuff. The comic makes a very good point in that you are essentially just using what you own to create a copy of what someone else has. There's no divine mandate that says you can't make a painting for your own enjoyment that looks like your neighbor's painting. Read my other post a couple of times and revel in the chance to ameliorate your ignorance.

Are you... serious? If you make a copy of a computer game, for instance, you are circumventing the entire system by which the game is sold -- that is, a copy of that data, at a fee (in the case of systems like Steam, there aren't even packaging costs). It doesn't matter whether or not you ever intended to pay for the item, or even if it immediately/directly (or at least intuitively to you) causes them a loss, the fact remains that you are using a product and experiencing an experience (without paying) that you can only legitimately obtain via purchase... something people probably worked for years on. Enjoying someone else's work without even taking into concern the myriad of reasons that they worked, and the entire structure that they have set up for the sale of this item is no doubt stealing.