What does religion have to say about copyright?

[neorichieb1971]

Back in the day when Jesus was walking on water, a hard mans slaving day got him a fish on a stick. But he was rewarded none the less.

I know two Asian people who are fasting right now for ramadam or whatever its called. Both of them copy games, movies, music and don't pay anything for them. I am Catholic but I don't take my religion that seriously, but these guys do. So has no religion stated what is acceptable in the new age world of copyright? If say a video game programmer slogs away for 18 months at 40 hours a week should he not be rewarded for his efforts? Wouldn't those extra bucks help secure his job?

I don't have a problem copying a movie because if I like it enough I will buy it on blu-ray and even if I don't, the actors make a billion in a lifetime anyway. But if you know someone actually worked 40 hours a week for 18 months and you just take it, surely religion should step in and state it is totally wrong, it should condemn it.

Maybe i'm a little gray on this subject because I am not totally innocent myself, but i'm not a complete free loader either. But if my priest told me i'd go to hell for piracy, i'd sure take that as a deterrent like no other.

I'm more interested in your views about the subject rather than your own habits.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I gladly pay for such tangible goods such as DVDs and Blu-Ray movies. In this day of age, there are some folks who would gladly pay for such entertainment goods that they can touch and hold. Eventually, such distribution channels of entertainment will be disregarded as old fashioned and use such broadband delievery service instead. The money eventually makes it's way back to the parent companies that put the leisure goods out on the market.

If you feel like supporting the local sidewalk vendor with his illegal stash of pirated DVDs and whatnot, that's up to you. Or it could be a reverse sting operation and you could end up being arrested for buying such illegal copied contraband if said sidewalks vendor is an undercover cop in disguse. Then you're fucked up big time. Sooner or later, the law will catch up to you.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[sven666]

well piracy is a modern way of stealing?

ie taking something that doesnt belong to you without paying/asking.

im not down with religion much (big surprise im sure) but isnt that a big no-no in pretty much all religions?

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Obviously the Bible doesn't say much about electronics however one of the Ten Commandments states "Thou shalt not steal." Stealing in Biblical times most likely was restricted to tangable goods.

It is interesting that stealing in this regard just means arranging your computer's binary (which you have purchased). When you steal programs you are just configuring your 1's and 0's in a pattern that is forbidden to you untill you pay a fee. In a much more simple sense you could have a closit full of cloths but sombody could copyright a specific shirt with a pair of pants. You have purchased the cloths however you now cannot configure your outfit in this same fashion. Nobody is going to copyright cloths combinations but it is something to think about.

When you pay for a computer game you are really just paying a fee to arrange your 0's and 1's which you already own into the program. Installing a program doesn't add any memory at all, it just configures your existing memory into patterns.

Interesting topic.

Now to answer the question, I would say that yes emulation is probably not ethical. I would say that the Bible instructs people to follow the laws unless they are deemed unjust by breaking Biblical instruction.

[kengou]

Your answer can easily be found here:

( http://www.qwantz.com/ check it out, seriously)

[Daedalus]

Neorichieb, when we talk about what is "wrong" in a modern society, we usually use two categories:

malum in se, or "Wrong in itself". Things like murder, rape, deprivation of property - things that are universally seen as wrong.

malum prohibitum, or wrong because it's prohibited. This covers stuff like how loud you can play your radio, how fast you can drive, how you can dress in public, and intellection property protection. We accept (well, most educated people do) that these things are not inherently wrong, but that our social contract binds us to obey these agreed-upon rules.


As far as I know, Christianity doesn't reference anything close to copyright protection, but it is covered obliquely by two at least two teachings. There's the "Do unto others" bit, which I believe allows you to engage in piracy as long as you would not feel violated if you were on the receiving end of such piracy.

More complicated is the second matter, which has varying importance depending on how valid you consider the epistles. Romans 13:1-7:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

This may be invalid if you believe the epistles are not the word of god, or if you believe Paul was trying to prevent Christianity from being crushed by the Roman government. But as the words stand, copyright infringement would certainly be prohibited.



I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but the real solution is to drop your primitive religion. If you want to be religious, or believe in a god, etc, more power to you. But the bible is full of wild inaccuracies, contradictory mandates, and a terrible ethical code. No good can come of it.

[captpain]

Your answer can easily be found here:

( http://www.qwantz.com/ check it out, seriously)

this is an unbelievably juvenile and aspergers-shut-in-crazy way to look at this issue. You don't own something that people make their living from, you get it without paying, you are stealing.

[Daedalus]

this is an unbelievably juvenile and aspergers-shut-in-crazy way to look at this issue. You don't own something that people make their living from, you get it without paying, you are stealing.

Ugh.

If you copy something that you had no intention of buying, how is that stealing? You did not deprive them of physical property. You also did not deprive them of potential income. So what exactly is one "stealing"? The artist loses nothing simply because you have a copy of their work.


Copyright law exists to benefit society by giving people an incentive to create more stuff. The comic makes a very good point in that you are essentially just using what you own to create a copy of what someone else has. There's no divine mandate that says you can't make a painting for your own enjoyment that looks like your neighbor's painting. Read my other post a couple of times and revel in the chance to ameliorate your ignorance.

[mjclark]

Ha ha,this thread reads like one of those barroom philosophy conversations...
I'm sure that every religion agrees that stealing is wrong and it's a bit inflammatory to suggest that followers of one religion are more likely to pirate software than followers of another religion...
...We all know plenty of Christians,Muslims,Jews,Hindus,Buddhists and atheists who download films and games, and we all know plenty who don't cos they think it's wrong...
...The real question is whether downloading is actually stealing or not-does intellectual property really exist or is it a concept we've been brainwashed into believing by a system that profits from it?
Maybe the copyrighters are stealing from us by laying claim for themselves to the realm of imagination which in reality belongs to everyone...
Shit,I'm starting to sound like one of them myself now

[MX7]

I just stole 3 Mars Bars from the corner shop. It's not a big deal. I;m pretty sure I'll give them 6 Mars Bars tomorrow.


This forum is pretty naive

[Daedalus]

I just stole 3 Mars Bars from the corner shop. It's not a big deal. I;m pretty sure I'll give them 6 Mars Bars tomorrow.


This forum is pretty naive

Not nearly as naive as the person who equates stealing real property with stealing intellectual property.


An equally valid analogy would be "Baseball players shouldn't steal bases because stealing is wrong!"

[mjclark]

Thou shalt not mod thy Sega Saturn
Nor shalt thou covet thy neighbour's Swap Magic...

[Ozymandiaz1260]

What would Jesus do?

[kengou]

The comic isn't necessarily encouraging software piracy. It's simply saying that software copyright law, as it exists right now, is flawed and self-contradictory.

[Stormwatch]

I know two Asian people who are fasting right now for ramadam or whatever its called.

Dude, they're not asians. They're MUSLIMS.

[Taylor]

Nobody doublethinks quite like a thieving oik. Stick to your guns though, when PC gaming collapses in on itself keep on harping that psychobabble about ownership, DRM and full-demos.

The comic isn't necessarily encouraging software piracy. It's simply saying that software copyright law, as it exists right now, is flawed and self-contradictory.

Most Dinosaur Comics are about intelligently arguing something that is absurd. In its own weird way, it’s apt.

If say a video game programmer slogs away for 18 months at 40 hours a week should he not be rewarded for his efforts?

That's pretty damn cushy!

[JoshF]

Good thing I can only perceive theft when it's illegal. It's a nice compliment to religious dogma.

[Daigohji]

It is interesting that stealing in this regard just means arranging your computer's binary (which you have purchased). When you steal programs you are just configuring your 1's and 0's in a pattern that is forbidden to you untill you pay a fee. In a much more simple sense you could have a closit full of cloths but sombody could copyright a specific shirt with a pair of pants. You have purchased the cloths however you now cannot configure your outfit in this same fashion. Nobody is going to copyright cloths combinations but it is something to think about.

That's a flawed analogy. A more accurate one would be that you have a box full of fabric and thread. You have someone make these into clothes for you, and then kick them out when it comes time to pay them.

[Specineff]

I don't see how me downloading a rom of Feda the Emblem of Justice (which I could never get here anyway), so I can patch it and play it in English is going to send me to hell. Especially now that the game is out of print.

[MX7]

I know two Asian people who are fasting right now for ramadam or whatever its called.

Dude, they're not asians. They're MUSLIMS.

Wut

[sven666]

It is interesting that stealing in this regard just means arranging your computer's binary (which you have purchased). When you steal programs you are just configuring your 1's and 0's in a pattern that is forbidden to you untill you pay a fee. In a much more simple sense you could have a closit full of cloths but sombody could copyright a specific shirt with a pair of pants. You have purchased the cloths however you now cannot configure your outfit in this same fashion. Nobody is going to copyright cloths combinations but it is something to think about.

so if i steal your identity, drain all your bank accounts and leave you crippled for life im not doing you any kind of injustice because im just shuffling 1s and 0s around?
nice little story tho, i always love the creative ways pirates try to justify themselves.. better than watching COPS

[jpj]

I know two Asian people who are fasting right now for ramadam or whatever its called. Both of them copy games, movies, music and don't pay anything for them.

here' your problem: british muslims
like almost any religious sector living in a western country like ours, people pick and choose what they follow and what they don't. they probably only do ramadan because they would get busted if they didn't. like i don't know any muslims who go out drinking, but everyone i've ever met smokes weed - you would get spotted in a club or a bar, but you wont get spotted smoking a fat one at 1 in the morning down the back alley of megabowl same with stealing, etc

allah is always watching

[Ed Oscuro]

Your answer can easily be found here:
[img][teh%20funnies%20go%20here][/img]
( http://www.qwantz.com/ check it out, seriously)

this is an unbelievably juvenile and aspergers-shut-in-crazy way to look at this issue. You don't own something that people make their living from, you get it without paying, you are stealing.

With downloadables, you are simply buying a representation of the work, are you not? Something like a poem is, after all, just a bunch of letters and characters and maybe some fancy kerning which once again can be turned into 0s and 1s.

You can buy the original of an artwork but you don't usually also receive the right to transfer that work to whomever you please (DeviantArt patronage doesn't count because A. DA generally sucks B. these kids are shortchanging themselves); that right remains with the artist (unless they stupidly sign it away, but see above for an "and nothing of value was lost" type scenario, "OMG THIS IS MY FURSONA").

Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. is a great example of how the cartoon is simplistic. It does make for interesting logic, but without context and an appreciation for the wider society, these debates often boil down to "how much can I screw over content providers?"

Also, I bet this means I'm finally getting the OK to copy all of the Dinosaur Comics pages with the simple addition of a PayPal button.

Yeaaah!

[Daedalus]

so if i steal your identity, drain all your bank accounts and leave you crippled for life im not doing you any kind of injustice because im just shuffling 1s and 0s around?
nice little story tho, i always love the creative ways pirates try to justify themselves.. better than watching COPS

It's not "creative justification" - you just lack the intelligence to understand the way things are.

Your analogy is incorrect, by the way. If you "shuffle the 1s and 0s" on the bank, you're messing with somebody else's hardware. You completely ignore the "own hardware" bit which was really central to the argument.

Seriously, I don't get how people can be this stupid. If you understood and disagreed, that would be fine. But you can't even understand the post you're trying to argue against.

[jpj]

turn around a sec dude, i think i just saw the world's biggest chip resting on your shoulder

If you copy something that you had no intention of buying [...]

so you disagree with the way copyright law works. and?

[Daedalus]

turn around a sec dude, i think i just saw the world's biggest chip resting on your shoulder

If you copy something that you had no intention of buying [...]

so you disagree with the way copyright law works. and?

I don't quite understand what you're trying to get at.


And I should clarify that I am not entirely against copyrights or patents. Without IP protections, we would rapidly see less and less IP being generated. This would be absolutely terrible for society.

I only intended to say there is a huge difference between material theft and copying IP. Anyone trying to villify IP violations by drawing allusions to deprivation of property either has a vested interest or is an idiot.

[JoshF]

i always love the creative ways pirates try to justify themselves.. better than watching COPS

Almost as sad as the valley girlz using their economic circumstances to insist moral superiority.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

It is interesting that stealing in this regard just means arranging your computer's binary (which you have purchased). When you steal programs you are just configuring your 1's and 0's in a pattern that is forbidden to you untill you pay a fee. In a much more simple sense you could have a closit full of cloths but sombody could copyright a specific shirt with a pair of pants. You have purchased the cloths however you now cannot configure your outfit in this same fashion. Nobody is going to copyright cloths combinations but it is something to think about.

so if i steal your identity, drain all your bank accounts and leave you crippled for life im not doing you any kind of injustice because im just shuffling 1s and 0s around?
nice little story tho, i always love the creative ways pirates try to justify themselves.. better than watching COPS

I was stating the way it is. I didn't condone the activity. I never said "And this gives you license to copy files you don't own to your computer's harddrive".

[jpj]

turn around a sec dude, i think i just saw the world's biggest chip resting on your shoulder

If you copy something that you had no intention of buying [...]

so you disagree with the way copyright law works. and?

I don't quite understand what you're trying to get at.


And I should clarify that I am not entirely against copyrights or patents. Without IP protections, we would rapidly see less and less IP being generated. This would be absolutely terrible for society.

I only intended to say there is a huge difference between material theft and copying IP. Anyone trying to villify IP violations by drawing allusions to deprivation of property either has a vested interest or is an idiot.

every time i see one of your posts, it's either to do with copyright laws, or you trying to shoe-horn the subject into the conversation

would you say (for example) downloading an illegal version of whatever is the newest hottest pc game is better or worse than stealing a mars bar?

[Neon]

Haha I love dinosaur comic

I'm surprised Ceph hasn't seagulled this topic by now (flown in, shat all over everything, screeched, and flown out).