US bails out another major financial institution

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Re: US bails out another major financial institution

Post by BulletMagnet »

Ed Oscuro wrote:I'm for more regulation myself, but it needs to be limited in scope.
I think it's fairly safe to say that pretty much everyone would agree to that, especially given the current political climate...seriously, is there ANYone out there insisting the the government should be sticking its nose in places just for the sake of being there, even if there's no need for it? Most reasonable people only call for this sort of thing when there's a good reason for it...as opposed to "I just drove my company into the ground - forget my years of insisting that you leave me completely alone to do what I want, I need money now!" As Cyber said, we've all seen this episode before - some just chose to forget about it in favor of (yet again) shortsighted, short-term self-interest, and here we all are...and most of us ain't getting a bailout.
There needs to be more of a realization that any regulation to prevent this from happening again would mean that the sort of easy home loans we've had in the past won't be available again.
Considering where it led us, one would hope that most people would consider that a fair trade-off. Of course, this might also mean that there should be an inquiry into other areas (the innate advantages of renting versus buying, for instance) to balance this out, but that's a whole other issue...for now methinks priority number one is making sure that those who got us into this mess can't do it again.
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Re: US bails out another major financial institution

Post by Ed Oscuro »

Wtf why did I say "limited in scope"

epic fail right there, caused by needless verbage

EDT: Oh look, here's some interesting stuff
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/ ... ef=topnews
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Post by trivial »

*verbiage. You also linked to an article written by a contributor to BeliefNet. Interesting or just depressing?

The company I work for uses Kronos scheduling software, rather incompetently in my branch at least. Kronos also makes shit especially for managing casinos. It's a good feeling, being involved with gambling however indirectly. Buy all our playsets and toys.

Just adore how pensions have been replaced by "investment plans". Never would have happened without communism to rage against.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

trivial wrote:*verbiage. You also linked to an article written by a contributor to BeliefNet. Interesting or just depressing?
All of the above, no doubt.

Anyhow, what I could've said yesterday was that the Fed is taking on a lot of business with these moves - if the public sector doesn't want to buy them, there's not a lot of choice, but this could stretch the Fed's capabilities.

BUSH SEZ
Posts like Neo Richie's made me forget that - although perhaps Bushism hasn't been the actual cause of this collapse - he certainly ain't done a great job reassuring the public. But then maybe they've just been taking their time figuring out what to do - wish I could be a fly on the wall in this Administration, sometimes...

Ban short selling?
You couldn't ask for anything better.

Let's see: Henry Paulson lets the number of functioning insurance banks dwindle, Bush gives a two minute speech, let's ban short selling! What a great plan.
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Post by Neon »

A bunch of fucking morons made moronic mortgage deals and all I got was 1/300 millionth of 80 percent of this stupid bankrupt mortgage company
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Re: US bails out another major financial institution

Post by ROBOTRON »

benstylus wrote:
ROBOTRON wrote:I've had an AIG policy for years...but I still cringe at what Bush is doing. The f*ckers running these defunct firms parachute out with millions and leave the U.S. taxpayer holding the bag.

Its Bushinomics.
sigh.

Bush doesn't run the Federal Reserve, which is doing the bailout. Heck the Federal Reserve technically isn't even a part of the government.
Bush doesn't run anything...his administration does.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

Neon wrote:A bunch of fucking morons made moronic mortgage deals and all I got was 1/300 millionth of 80 percent of this stupid bankrupt mortgage company
And yet we're still gonna lose money on it come sale time. :(
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Post by Daedalus »

Neon wrote:A bunch of fucking morons made moronic mortgage deals and all I got was 1/300 millionth of 80 percent of this stupid bankrupt mortgage company
AIG is an insurance company.


Anyways, a couple thoughts:

I seriously doubt the people at AIG are particularly thrilled about getting bailed out. The government will be taking a huge share of the company, diluting the ownership of the other investors. Furthermore, the CEO (who has only been there for three months) will be leaving again, and most of the top management aren't exactly looking at easy street (They have new owners who blame them for the recent problems, and will apply for new jobs with everyone knowing they led their last employer to ruin.)

The bailout of AIG, as well as the takeovers of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were certainly in the best interests of the state. People needn't worry about this spawning a frenzy of "me too" bailouts - As I mentioned earlier, it's not exactly a golden ticket. It's also important to recognize that the government had no problem watching LEH and MER (both major companies in their own right) crash and burn without feeling any need to intervene.

neorichieb1971 wrote:Ask for $80 billion to feed or shelter the poor, teach, turn vast amounts of rubble land to bear fruit, tell the government to subsidise fuel or create a national health system that would support millions of people and you get "its not in our interests" or "its not in the budget".
Were it so simple, anyone would gladly do it. But poverty, health problems, and environmental problems are not something that can so easily be bought away. We are forced to allocate scarce resources, and attending a major problem requiring a fixed dollar amount better serves our interests than allocating it to an undefined problem with undefined solutions.
benstylus wrote:What cracks me up is that McCain and company are out there saying that the real problem is that there are too many regulators out there, and that's what the real problem is...
What's even more bizarre is how he preaches deregulation constantly for the whole campaign... and then out of nowhere he's calling for divine judgment against Christopher Cox for "failing to regulate the market". I really don't see why people are still supporting this guy.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Daedalus wrote:As I mentioned earlier, it's not exactly a golden ticket.
It's still a hell of a lot better than any of us could have gotten at any of our jobs after performing so incompetently.
Were it so simple, anyone would gladly do it.
Some would - others would continue to insist that the poor, sick, and destitute are only where they are because they refuse to work hard enough.
But poverty, health problems, and environmental problems are not something that can so easily be bought away.
Unfettered corporate greed can't be solved with dollars either, but the administration seems perfectly content to take the stereotypical Evil Liberal position and "throw money at a problem" without being willing to make any of the underlying, father-reaching changes that are needed to prevent this from happening all over again in a few years.
We are forced to allocate scarce resources
We certainly weren't afraid to "allocate" the previous administration's surplus to the richest citizens and to launch a war based on false pretenses...now, of course, the prevailing cry is "times are tough" when anyone else is in need of some help.
I really don't see why people are still supporting this guy.
Because they've been told non-stop for decades now that conservatives are always down-to-earth straight-shooters (and McCain is an especially "honorable" specimen, who deserves praise for "honesty" even when he admits having lied) and that liberals are a bunch of constant liars (even when the facts support their position) who want to turn your kids gay.
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Re: US bails out another major financial institution

Post by ROBOTRON »

benstylus wrote:
ROBOTRON wrote:I've had an AIG policy for years...but I still cringe at what Bush is doing. The f*ckers running these defunct firms parachute out with millions and leave the U.S. taxpayer holding the bag.

Its Bushinomics.
sigh.

Bush doesn't run the Federal Reserve, which is doing the bailout. Heck the Federal Reserve technically isn't even a part of the government.
Read carefully:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080920/ap_ ... l_meltdown

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION my friend.
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Re: US bails out another major financial institution

Post by benstylus »

ROBOTRON wrote:
benstylus wrote:
ROBOTRON wrote:I've had an AIG policy for years...but I still cringe at what Bush is doing. The f*ckers running these defunct firms parachute out with millions and leave the U.S. taxpayer holding the bag.

Its Bushinomics.
sigh.

Bush doesn't run the Federal Reserve, which is doing the bailout. Heck the Federal Reserve technically isn't even a part of the government.
Read carefully:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080920/ap_ ... l_meltdown

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION my friend.
This link is for the new far-reaching bailout that popped up over the last couple days. My post referred specifically to the AIG bailout, which is being handled by the Federal Reserve.

Also, perhaps you too should read carefully that link that you pointed to...

"The Bush administration is asking Congress to let the government buy $700 billion in toxic mortgages in the largest financial bailout since the Great Depression, according to a draft of the plan obtained Saturday by The Associated Press."

Bush isn't doing anything on this without the approval of the Democrats.
You're arguing for a universe with fewer waffles in it. I'm prepared to call that cowardice.
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Post by Never_Scurred »

trivial wrote:*verbiage. You also linked to an article written by a contributor to BeliefNet. Interesting or just depressing?

The company I work for uses Kronos scheduling software, rather incompetently in my branch at least. Kronos also makes shit especially for managing casinos. It's a good feeling, being involved with gambling however indirectly. Buy all our playsets and toys.

Just adore how pensions have been replaced by "investment plans". Never would have happened without communism to rage against.
We use that slow piece of shit Kronos too. Ever notice how slow it runs when you're 5 minutes away from clocking in? Fuck them red boxes too. I'd like to beat and the person who came up with this stupid system and let my puppies rape 'em.
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Post by trivial »

PM sent re: pulling fitecloughb on Kronos HQ

j/k, broke the first rule o' fitecloughb.
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Post by Daedalus »

BulletMagnet wrote:Some would - others would continue to insist that the poor, sick, and destitute are only where they are because they refuse to work hard enough.
You're misinterpreting what I said. If there was a way to fix poverty, nearly all people would gladly do it. The frustrations you quote stem from this very problem - That we do throw a lot of money into all kinds of poverty-related issues yet we cannot "cure" the problem.
Unfettered corporate greed can't be solved with dollars either, but the administration seems perfectly content to take the stereotypical Evil Liberal position and "throw money at a problem" without being willing to make any of the underlying, father-reaching changes that are needed to prevent this from happening all over again in a few years.
This is simply wrong. We are not trying to solve "unfettered corporate greed". We're trying to prevent the insolvency of major American companies. This money doesn't go "corporate fatcats". It goes to protect the people who are employed by the company, the people who receive services from the company, and the people who will suffer through the shock waves in our economy if these companies go bankrupt.
We certainly weren't afraid to "allocate" the previous administration's surplus to the richest citizens and to launch a war based on false pretenses...now, of course, the prevailing cry is "times are tough" when anyone else is in need of some help.
And this war drove us deeply into debt. You can say that the wars were a bad idea, and I would be the first to agree with you. But it's a fallacious argument to say, "Well we spent money on X, therefore we have plenty of money to go around."



I am curious, since you seem to have such a strong love of socialism. Exactly how much money do you think we need to spend to fix our poverty, health, and environmental issues? And how would you suggest allocating it?


If I can use an example from home, my public school district (Milwaukee Public Schools) currently spends over $10k per student. The national average is at $9k, with many good schools spending well below that. Yet even with our funding advantage, our schools are a wreck - we are in the worst 5 schools in terms of drop-outs, and routinely rank at the bottom of many other such lists. Is increasing funding the solution here? Not a chance. There are a lot of major problems contributing to this state of affairs, but lack of funding is not one of them.

My point is this - the whole "more money for the poor!" rhetoric sounds great, it really does. But money isn't always the solution to complex problems. And unfortunately, when ignorant people refuse to stop harping on "more money for the poor" idiocy, it makes it very hard to push through welfare programs that will actually benefit people. Instead, we're grouped with the few (yet vocal) people who actually live the Democratic stereotype of sky-high taxes.


And one more thing...
It's still a hell of a lot better than any of us could have gotten at any of our jobs after performing so incompetently.
Not all jobs are equal, and I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you don't do anything nearly as complex as managing the third largest insurance company in the world (the largest in the US). But if you think it's so great, why don't you work your way up that road?
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Post by Neon »

calmewenizzum ftw
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Post by neorichieb1971 »

Poverty is there for a reason, to make the rich and middle class feel good about themselves. If everyone was on a even playing field the urge to better one's self goes down the toilet.

Anyway, read in the UK newspapers Bush has spent $800billion + on saving the world putting the USA about $14 trillion in the hole. But, with all things it will be you poor suckers in the States footing the bill over the next 25 years. You would think with wars and economic collapse on the horizon USA companies would stop taking risks. The rich are certainly loving it at the moment, in all the worlds economic history there is no better time to buy up huge corperations at bottom $ prices.
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
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Post by benstylus »

BulletMagnet wrote:We certainly weren't afraid to "allocate" the previous administration's surplus to the richest citizens and to launch a war based on false pretenses...now, of course, the prevailing cry is "times are tough" when anyone else is in need of some help.
There was no actual surplus, just the administration manipulating numbers so they could say there was.

http://www.letxa.com/articles/16
You're arguing for a universe with fewer waffles in it. I'm prepared to call that cowardice.
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Post by Michaelm »

neorichieb1971 wrote:Poverty is there for a reason, to make the rich and middle class feel good about themselves. If everyone was on a even playing field the urge to better one's self goes down the toilet.
:shock:
This is just a joke, right ?
All errors are intentional but mistakes could have been made.
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Re: US bails out another major financial institution

Post by ROBOTRON »

benstylus wrote:
ROBOTRON wrote:
benstylus wrote: sigh.

Bush doesn't run the Federal Reserve, which is doing the bailout. Heck the Federal Reserve technically isn't even a part of the government.
Read carefully:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080920/ap_ ... l_meltdown

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION my friend.
This link is for the new far-reaching bailout that popped up over the last couple days. My post referred specifically to the AIG bailout, which is being handled by the Federal Reserve.

Also, perhaps you too should read carefully that link that you pointed to...

"The Bush administration is asking Congress to let the government buy $700 billion in toxic mortgages in the largest financial bailout since the Great Depression, according to a draft of the plan obtained Saturday by The Associated Press."

Bush isn't doing anything on this without the approval of the Democrats.
You make it sound as if democrats have a choice, remember it is an election year...just remember who got us here.
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Post by BulletMagnet »

Daedalus wrote:You're misinterpreting what I said. If there was a way to fix poverty, nearly all people would gladly do it.
I must continue to disagree on that point - I've met far too many people who consider (or like to say they consider) poverty, inequality, etc. as signs of "fairness" in our society, since they believe that those at the top without exception are simply more skilled, harder-working people than those at the bottom, and scoff at anyone who suggests that the playing field might be titled in the former's favor to begin with. I seriously wonder if they'd be willing to do ANYthing to "fix" poverty even if a foolproof solution was ever discovered.
This is simply wrong. We are not trying to solve "unfettered corporate greed". We're trying to prevent the insolvency of major American companies.
That's exactly it - it was likely inevitable that we needed to cough up some cash to prevent a "ripple effect" or whatever you care to call it, I won't argue with that. However, as you say, we're not doing much of anything about the real root of the problem, namely corporate bigwigs who are able to take any stupid risk they want and use other people's money to do it - my question is, why aren't we?
But it's a fallacious argument to say, "Well we spent money on X, therefore we have plenty of money to go around."
That's not what I was suggesting - what I meant to say was that we've spent a lot more money on far stupider things than trying to give the neediest a leg up, and to this day refuse to put any sort of spending limit on any of those ventures - as soon as someone suggests spending money in a manner that would help more than a wealthy few, "sorry, nothing in the till!" But of course when McCain proposes not only to make the Bush tax cuts for the rich permanent, but to FURTHER cut them, no one says boo.
I am curious, since you seem to have such a strong love of socialism.
I can't help but chuckle to myself how in this country anything to the left of Pat Buchanan can still be labeled "socialism" with a straight face.
Exactly how much money do you think we need to spend to fix our poverty, health, and environmental issues? And how would you suggest allocating it?
As you could likely already guess, I'm not an economics expert, and am not about to present some super-detailed plan that will fix everything. That said, I do believe I'm within my boundaries, especially after the past eight years, to suggest that what's needed is a change of emphasis, a change of philosophy, in the way the government spends its money and its efforts - instead of giving huge amounts to private enterprise in the form of tax breaks and such and then taking their hands off, trusting them to sort everything else out and "do the right thing" because the market will inevitably sort the "cheaters" out (does anyone seriously still believe that?), they need to keep a closer watch and a tighter lid on what's going on. Do I have specific policy proposals to offer? Not off the top of my head, and I don't have the luxury of spending enough time and money to become informed enough to craft them. But my simple point is, before ANY change in this area, either in spending habits or other things, can happen, the prevailing ideology of "the government is always the problem" (i.e. McCain saying that too much regulation got us into this mess, and not being laughed out of the room for it) needs to be dispelled, and fast.

Is more money always the solution? As you say in your example of the school district, obviously not (though not requiring districts to buy their supplies from a single supplier that can charge any stupid price it wants might be a nice perk, among others) - however, simply saying that half-assed past "bailout" efforts haven't worked, and now we're just going to rule out ANY financial help at all, isn't likely to produce much fruit either. Obviously there's more to it, and additional money by itself is pretty much never the solution - as with almost any effort of this kind, however, it's still got to be on the table.
Not all jobs are equal, and I'm going to take a stab in the dark and guess you don't do anything nearly as complex as managing the third largest insurance company in the world (the largest in the US).
You're correct on both counts - however, you seem to bypass the fact that whatever job you're hired to do, "low-end" or "high-end," you're expected to a) Be equipped to do it competently, and b) use that equipment to earn the salary that comes with that job. The CEOs and their ilk have constantly crooned that they make such ridiculous amounts of money because they're infinitely smarter than the rest of us, and can manage stuff that we could never dream of. If they actually lived up to their own hype I might not be so contemptuous of the fat severance packages they're getting (more money than I'm likely to see over my lifetime), but when they fail to perform and yet continue to insist that they're entitled to the GDP of a small nation in compensation, sorry - they can kiss my dirty Commie ass. :P


EDIT:
There was no actual surplus, just the administration manipulating numbers so they could say there was.

http://www.letxa.com/articles/16
Point taken, though as the guy himself says, that's not a defense of Bush's far more profligate spending habits. Some of the guy's positions (no man-made global warming, "anti-Palin" media bias, privatized social security) make me wonder where he's reporting from...can't be Earth.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

Q&A about how the bailout is supposed to work! Everybody clap your hands (CAN YOU FEEL IT?) in excitement:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21qanda.html
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Post by ED-057 »

we're not doing much of anything about the real root of the problem, namely corporate bigwigs who are able to take any stupid risk they want and use other people's money to do it
Your description of the problem would seem to put blame on the corporate bigwigs. But what if we turn this around? Maybe the root of the problem is all the people throwing money at corporate bigwigs and then turning their backs. Maybe investors, like execs, want the rewards but not the responsibility. Who does that leave to cry foul on these accounting games before they blow up in everyone's faces?
I seriously wonder if they'd be willing to do ANYthing to "fix" poverty even if a foolproof solution was ever discovered.
I'm sure there will always be complaints, as long as the solution was anything less than a replicator with an infinite energy supply that could spit out anything anyone ever needed. Let's use our imaginations.

solution1: Government uses tax revenue to buy goods from private enterprise and give them to the poor.
problem1: Some people will purposely milk the government handouts as much as they can get away with.
problem2: Taxpayers complain about able-bodied countrymen getting something for nothing.
problem3: Corruption. Private companies who sell goods to the government are going to send out their lobbiests to buy deals allowing them to get away with either overcharging, selling substandard products, or locking out competitors. Taxpayers and the poor both get screwed.

In order to avoid those problems, maybe someone would suggest solution2: Government employs the needy themselves for the task of producing the needed goods.
problem 4: If these goods are sold competitively on the open market, private companies cry about unfair competition. OR if the goods are not really competitive then maybe they don't sell, government program operates at a loss, taxpayers complain about having to subsidize it.
problem 5: The poor complain that although they now have X they are still poor because they don't have Y.

In my mind, it seems to be leading to a planned economy which has another set of problems.

Problem 5 is a big one. One of the things that people want is health care. So aside from the issue of people whining about their tax dollars or insurance premiums going to help others, there is the fact that no matter how much money is spent on health care, everyone will eventually die. There are limitted resources to be spent. Logically, no insurance plan can cover every conceivable service for everyone. I think that nobody wants to step into the public spotlight and talk about how the resources should be used most effectively because they will be shot down by any group of people afflicted with a problem that the proposed plan would not cover.

Poverty is a tough issue, but I think limitted redistribution of wealth from the top down is only fair. I'm all for liberty, and taxes are an infringement of liberty, but without taxation and social spending a minority can sit on all the capital and use their position to exert control over others. Every person born into the world owning nothing would be at the mercy of the haves, which I would say is the opposite of liberty.
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Post by Ed Oscuro »

People bitching about handouts (problem2) is nothing new, it's just ignorance playing into politics. I'd call it ignorance at this point because a number of surveys and studies show that "welfare queens" is a myth and at this point it should be treated as maybe one step behind veiled racism.
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Post by Daedalus »

ED-057 wrote:taxes are an infringement of liberty
I don't think so. Taxation is part of our social contract... we need to pay for the services we receive from the government.

People may complain about taxes, but ultimately they could move their person or business to a country where the tax burden was much lighter (or even nonexistent). However, few people choose to do so, because the benefits of living and operating in the US are far greater than the cost of taxes.


It's somewhat ironic, actually, to see well-off people complain about taxes. They want to receive the benefits of government while dodging paying for it... the same crime they so vehemently target poor people for.
This is not similation. Get ready to destoroy the enemy. Target for the weak points of f**kin' machine. Do your best you have ever done.
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