Do you think shmups will completely die out?

[FatCobra]

Shmups are already a niche genre as it is, but with the next-gen consoles coming out in a couple of months, I feel as if the future of shmups is quite dim indeed. Well, in the States anyway, since obviously Joe Sixpack doesn't care about old-school twitch gameplay and the urge to improve your high score. Once in a blue moon, when the voodoo shaman has sacarificed ten chickens, us Americans and Europeans are actually lucky enough to get a shmup ported for our region consoles. I don't really know what the situtation is in Japan, but I feel the way things are going in the rest of the world, shmups may fade out of existance alltogether. It's sad that most people don't like this genre anymore, so we are forced to import. (But on the positive side, we have something to brag about ).

Does the future of shmups look grim to any of you other people? I know there's plenty of shmups already out there to play and master, but it's nice hearing that a new shmup will see a US or PAL release, I can avoid the whole importing mess if I want to copy. Don't developers realize that just Gradius V and R-Type Final aren't enough, we need more!!! And crap like Slipheed and Mobil Light Farce 2 don't cut the mustard?

[russ]

Unfortunately, I agree. I'd really like to be optimistic and say that there's hope, but honestly, shmups' old age began when the gaming world started its transition into 3D. The further we get from 2D games, the closer our beloved genre gets to its death. And unless there's some revolution in the genre, such as a couple games really hitting off big or if the gaming world goes back into 2D games, it's most likely going to fade away.

[FatCobra]

You may be right russ, but you know, in an alternate universe, games like Gradius V would crowd the shelves and instead of hardcore shmuppers, we be GTAers and complain about why there aren't any more free-roamers anymore.

[TVG]

not really true, PAL releases are more and more frequent.

as for the topic, no, not for a while, so no need for drama, the competitive scene in japan is strong, apparently the PAL releases sell enough to warrant more releases and if anything, im sure theres nearly 400 excellent shmups ive yet to play and master.
so...yea, im not getting too worried.
last year saw i dont know how many shmups, this year plenty are announced, the retro packs are coming, shmups are getting a BIT of "almost mainstream" attention, retrogaming is cool and hype, what more could you want?

tho i guess, if you're a NTSC US only player, you're screwed, but who cares?

edit: repeat after me, GTA SA is an awesome game.

[FatCobra]

tho i guess, if you're a NTSC US only player, you're screwed, but who cares?

I used to be, but then I imported a Saturn.

[CMoon]

Being pesimistic about this seems rational but the problem is a ton of great shmups have come out lately and I think they are having a bit of a renissance (sp?). Shmups certainly have died out as a mainstream form of gaming, but it seems like they will continue to be lurking about in the shadows for some time to come.

[Cthulhu]

There have indeed been more Japanese shmups in the last year than the two prior. Not all of them have been good, but the fact that they're there is undeniable.

Shmups will continue to be made so long as there are enough people to pay for them... they're a niche genre for sure, but a profitable one. Since they can be licenced and released for cheap, we'll probably see shmups get released in the US and Europe as budget releases, with the advantages (cheap) and disadvantages (stupid edits, features taken out) thereof.

I think the genre will stay on course for 3-5 releases a year for a while, and that's fine with me. I don't expect the golden years to return.

[BulletMagnet]

However long they last, as long as they do I'll be there to play 'em...and even if the genre does eventually stop coming out with new stuff, I'll just keep playing my old stuff, trying for more ICCs and improved scores. Either way I think we shmuppers should come away okay.

[Shatterhand]

I remember when the PS2 was released, people on this forum was complaining "ooohh, do you feel shmups will die ?"

5 years later, and this doesn't seems to be the case.

I really doubt shmups will die. Actually, I have a feeling that the genre indeed had a boost in the last few years...

Also, I think the freeware scene also is a big one to watch out. Many good games being released that should not be missed.

[gs68]

I don't think shmups will survive much longer. We live in a society where 3D gameplay, 2048x1536 graphics, complex fantasy worlds filled with characters dressed in intricate apparel, game lengths upwards of 100 hours, and 6-hour cutscenes have become the standard of gaming.

Hardly anyone nowadays wants to see 2D gameplay, graphics lower than 640x480 resolution, worlds that pick you as their last hope against a big-ass alien invasion, games that last "only" 50 minutes, or a lack of cutscenes.

[TVG]

I don't think shmups will survive much longer. We live in a society where 3D gameplay, 2048x1536 graphics, complex fantasy worlds filled with characters dressed in intricate apparel, game lengths upwards of 100 hours, and 6-hour cutscenes have become the standard of gaming.

Hardly anyone nowadays wants to see 2D gameplay, graphics lower than 640x480 resolution, worlds that pick you as their last hope against a big-ass alien invasion, games that last "only" 50 minutes, or a lack of cutscenes.

and in 5 years there will still be people saying that.

the genre seems pretty healthly, so i dont know where the pessimism comes from, just imagine if you were a fan on say, beat'em'ups, now THATS a dead genre.

[dtdg]

the genre seems pretty healthly, so i dont know where the pessimism comes from, just imagine if you were a fan on say, beat'em'ups, now THATS a dead genre.[/quote]


Not necessarily, Final Fight for the next gen console was announced.
Spike-out: Battle Street, Urban Reign, And Mark Ecko's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure (yeah, I know it's primarly a vandalism game, but most of it has beat'em up elements.

[raiden]

you want a dead genre? Try text adventures.

[BUHA]

Games like Alien Hominid and Viewtiful Joe are still pretty popular, and those are totally 2D.

The future seems bleak, but we'll see what happens. We saw all the good stuff we got for the DC and PS2, like Ikaruga and Gradius V. Maybe we'll get something really great on these new consoles. Also, we always have the freeware PC community to turn to.

[Guest]

In the future, the video game industry will be reduced to 5000 stupid, pointless games where all you do is run around and kill people and steal cars, and not much else. Hasn't it already. About every game released now just follows the same pattern, just generate some crappy game in couple weeks, loaded with graphics, sex, and violence, using the pre-made game engine that Sony has just sent to you, and then hype it up like there's no tomorrow to maximize sales. I know the video game industry was always about money, but programmers used to give half a shit about the quality of the games they were churning out. In the past, programmers had limited resources to work with, so they HAD to be clever and innovative to come up with good games. Now, X-Box and PS2 have all the hardware power in the world but the games are the same shit as the last.

That being said, the shooter genre hasn't really been doing so well recently. Ask any moron walking down the street, if they would rather play Grand Theft Auto 3 or Gradius 5, you'll probably get a response along the lines of OMG GRAN TEFT AUDO 3 BEST GAME EVAR MAED EVAR ROFLWAFFLES1!!!!111111 or OMG WUT IS GRaDeIS I NeVaR HeRD OF IT MuS+ B A gAY gAem Lo_OLoOool

[TVG]

you're definately stupid.

[Guest]

I r DEfinAtely stupid

As far as I can tell, in every message you ever post, you just say "that was stupid" or "that was dumb yo"...I suppose adversely to that, you are offering yourself up as some type of genius or something, and responding to what the last person said by just saying "that was dumb dude" with at least one word spelled wrong would be a demonstration of vast intelligence and intellectual prowess.

[black mariah]

I don't think shmups will survive much longer. We live in a society where 3D gameplay, 2048x1536 graphics, complex fantasy worlds filled with characters dressed in intricate apparel, game lengths upwards of 100 hours, and 6-hour cutscenes have become the standard of gaming.

What keeps shmups from having any of those things? Where is the Great Shmup Rulebook that says "Thou shalt not have hi-res graphics, non-stupid storylines, good character design, more than 30 minutes of gameplay, or any cutscenes outside of attract mode"?

The only thing wrong with shmups are developers that refuse to move with the progress of the rest of the world. I know some douche is going to pull that "BUT WHY SHOULD THEY? I don't want to play an RPG! 2D FOREVER!" bullshit so as a preemptive strike I'll say this much... SHUT UP. Complaining about lack of interest in shmups while casting off anything new or different is fucking hypocritical.

[TVG]

some stuff is too dumb to deserve a proper reply.

i guess its much easier to run aound like chickens with their heads cut off and bitch about gta than do some actual reasoning.

ps: my english is bad because i learned it on the internet by reading idiots like you.

and you use "n00b" as an insult, thats worse than any spelling error i can make in my entire life, thanks.

[TVG]

I don't think shmups will survive much longer. We live in a society where 3D gameplay, 2048x1536 graphics, complex fantasy worlds filled with characters dressed in intricate apparel, game lengths upwards of 100 hours, and 6-hour cutscenes have become the standard of gaming.

What keeps shmups from having any of those things? Where is the Great Shmup Rulebook that says "Thou shalt not have hi-res graphics, non-stupid storylines, good character design, more than 30 minutes of gameplay, or any cutscenes outside of attract mode"?

The only thing wrong with shmups are developers that refuse to move with the progress of the rest of the world. I know some douche is going to pull that "BUT WHY SHOULD THEY? I don't want to play an RPG! 2D FOREVER!" bullshit so as a preemptive strike I'll say this much... SHUT UP. Complaining about lack of interest in shmups while casting off anything new or different is fucking hypocritical.

id rather have shootemups stay arcade games, a quick blast, im sure a lot of people feel the same.

[sethsez]

you want a dead genre? Try text adventures.

Heh, even text adventures (or interactive fiction as they're now known in the "community") still have a healthy and devoted following, and games are still being released. A good recent one is "Future Boy" if you give a shit.

Everyone going "the sky is falling and in five years everything is going to be GTA" needs to calm down and realize that a little over a decade ago, every other game was a cheesy half-assed platformer with a movie tie-in and people were convinced that it would always be that way. There is something to be said for having a little perspective (or in some people's cases here, any perspective at all).

Besides, how many GTA clones (you know, run around, kill people, steal cars) were released on the PS2, Xbox and Gamecube? I mean, make an actual list of games that play like GTA. Now... how many shmups were released on the PS2, Xbox and Gamecube? Not including imports, there are slightly more GTA clones than shmups. Including imports, there are more shmups than GTA clones. And that's ignoring the PC indie scene, which has some great things to offer.

So once again... the sky is not falling, and as long as there's a community that cares about shmups, there will be shmups. It might become more indie as time goes on (like text adventures) but as Kenta Cho and games like Perfect Cherry Blossom prove, this doesn't mean the games will suck.

[black mariah]

id rather have shootemups stay arcade games, a quick blast, im sure a lot of people feel the same.

Then don't complain when shmups remain a genre forgotten to the majority of people.

[sethsez]

id rather have shootemups stay arcade games, a quick blast, im sure a lot of people feel the same.

Then don't complain when shmups remain a genre forgotten to the majority of people.

As much as I agree with your intent, there is a point where you have to say "well, this is what the genre is." Shmups might be more popular if you replace the ships with cars, make them customizable, and instead of shooting aliens you go around a track in order to beat all the other cars. However, the downside is that you've created a racing game, not a shmup.

I agree that there's nothing to fear from beautiful high-res graphics and things like multiple endings (hell, that's been a part of the genre since Darius but some people still insult RPGs with that line), but at its base it should still be a fast-paced action game. That's the foundation.

[TVG]

id rather have shootemups stay arcade games, a quick blast, im sure a lot of people feel the same.

Then don't complain when shmups remain a genre forgotten to the majority of people.

believe me, casual gamers wouldnt play any more shooters if they had a storyline and took 10 hours to beat.

so would you rather conserve your current fanbase, or turn them off, and not even gain a new one? the answer is simple.
tho, i dont mind one of these game once in a while, astroboy on gba was great and is close as you can get to RPGshmup.

but overall, rpg elements negate another factor, skill, whats the point of learning a game when you can just sit around levelling up?

RPGs are fine, shooters are fine, but they're a different genre.
a lot of people in japan complained about RSG lenght in the arcades, and as far as i know it wasnt too sucessful, that's why they made ikaruga significantly shorter.

i dont mind hi rez or other improvements, but id like the genre to stay what it mostly is, chalenging arcade games.

to put it short, there's no way or possibility for shmups to become mainstream or anything else than a niche market which generates most of its revenues in arcades, so its not worth to lose the identity of the genre by trying.
but, there's also no way that shmups will die all of a sudden, CEPT FOR THE US CONSOLE MARKET, THEY ARE DEAD ALREADY.

[Nemo]

id rather have shootemups stay arcade games, a quick blast, im sure a lot of people feel the same.

Indeed we do. There's only so much tweaking you can do to a shmup before it's no longer a shmup.

[black mariah]

As much as I agree with your intent, there is a point where you have to say "well, this is what the genre is." Shmups might be more popular if you replace the ships with cars, make them customizable, and instead of shooting aliens you go around a track in order to beat all the other cars. However, the downside is that you've created a racing game, not a shmup.

I agree that there's nothing to fear from beautiful high-res graphics and things like multiple endings (hell, that's been a part of the genre since Darius but some people still insult RPGs with that line), but at its base it should still be a fast-paced action game. That's the foundation.

Fuck foundation. I'm worried about the FUTURE. There's a difference between saying "This is what the genre is." and saying "Anything that deviates even a little bit isn't this". Progress is severely lacking in shmups. Look how far FPS games have come since Doom. With few notable exceptions shmups have sat and stagnated with nothing more than new ways to score and slightly better graphics. It doesn't take obliterating the shmupness to move them into the future. All it takes is sitting back, reevaluating what makes a shmup a shmup, and combining the barest essentials in with other elements. Does anyone question that Twinkle Star Sprites or Silvergun are shmups, despite the puzzle style elements? What about Kingdom Grand Prix and its race elements? What would be wrong with going even further down that path?

Is my point a bit clearer now?

[Guest]

some stuff is too dumb to deserve a proper reply.

i guess its much easier to run aound like chickens with their heads cut off and bitch about gta than do some actual reasoning.

ps: my english is bad because i learned it on the internet by reading idiots like you.

and you use "n00b" as an insult, thats worse than any spelling error i can make in my entire life, thanks.

Well, if you bothered to read my message, instead of just glancing at it once and saying that it was dumb, then you might realize I was making a point, that the current state of the video game industry centers around sales and hype. Given that, I think the shooter genre might be falling behind in sales, for the mere fact that it's difficult to make a shooter game as raunchy or appealing to the average deprived teenage male, as say, a game where you beat hookers mercilessly with golf clubs, or a volleyball game where you can resize the participants breasts at your own free will.

Coming soon...Darius XXX...

You start off as Proco, then you can have sex with Tiat, after resizing various portions of her anatomy, then beat her senseless with a baseball bat and steal her Silver Hawk. The object of the game is to fly your hijacked cruiser around the federation of the planet Orga, raise hell by causing death upon others for no apparent reason with various degrees of sporting apparatus, and afterwards, steal their Silver Hawk cruisers, take them for a joy ride around the universe, and then proceed to cash them in for Orga bucks. That's the whole game. Oh wait, we have to put in a nude code for Tiat.

Is that what it would take to make shooters sell better, and thus become more popularized? I'd also rather it remained a "niche genre."

Anyway, since you're quoting me as calling somebody a n00b, I feel I should address that, as I have no clue in hell what you're talking about. I don't recall insulting anybody or calling them a n00b. If I did use the word n00b, it was probably as a joke. I'm not somebody that sits there on my computer and gets off by insulting other people on the internet for fun, that's not my style, maybe it's yours, who knows. You seem to post alot of nasty comments and put-downs directed towards others, perhaps you get off on it, maybe that's all you got going for you. I got other things to worry about.

ps: my english is bad because i learned it on the internet by reading idiots like you.

Okay, that statement makes so little sense that I'm just going to laugh at it.

[sethsez]

Fuck foundation. I'm worried about the FUTURE. There's a difference between saying "This is what the genre is." and saying "Anything that deviates even a little bit isn't this". Progress is severely lacking in shmups. Look how far FPS games have come since Doom. With few notable exceptions shmups have sat and stagnated with nothing more than new ways to score and slightly better graphics. It doesn't take obliterating the shmupness to move them into the future. All it takes is sitting back, reevaluating what makes a shmup a shmup, and combining the barest essentials in with other elements. Does anyone question that Twinkle Star Sprites or Silvergun are shmups, despite the puzzle style elements? What about Kingdom Grand Prix and its race elements? What would be wrong with going even further down that path?

Is my point a bit clearer now?

Your point is clearer, but what I'm saying is that shmups, by their nature, are not going to be popular again unless the public comes to them.

Here's what I mean... shmups have gone 3D and rail-based. Star Fox and Space Harrier are the two best known games here. Then they became open arenas. Warhawk and the Ace Combat series. Multiplayer dogfighting? Crimson Skies. However... these games aren't considered "shmups." The genre HAS "evolved" quite a bit from its humble Space Invaders beginnings (which some people also don't consider a shmup), but it left the name behind when it did so.

Well, if you bothered to read my message, instead of just glancing at it once and saying that it was dumb, then you might realize I was making a point, that the current state of the video game industry centers around sales and hype.

Instead of the glory days when it revolved around sunshine and gumdrops?

[black mariah]

Well, if you bothered to read my message, instead of just glancing at it once and saying that it was dumb, then you might realize I was making a point, that the current state of the video game industry centers around sales and hype. Given that, I think the shooter genre might be falling behind in sales, for the mere fact that it's difficult to make a shooter game as raunchy or appealing to the average deprived teenage male, as say, a game where you beat hookers mercilessly with golf clubs, or a volleyball game where you can resize the participants breasts at your own free will.

Sexy Parodius. You lose.

[visuatrox]

Well I thought that this generation would not get any shmups, but still the PS2 ended up as one of the best consoles ever for shmups. So I guess there is still hope as long as there is a fanbase large enough to make new games profitable.

I think games like Gradius and Ikaruga may have introduced shmups to many new gamers. Shmups are a niche genre and will probably remain that way. But as a niche/oldschool genre it actually seems pretty healty right now. Just look at all the merchandise around them (soundtracks, comics, artbooks, figures etc..). Developers have started to see the potential making money with the shmup franchises (see http://www.alfasystem.net/game/shiki2/G ... ation.html)

Fans are prepared to pay for stuff, just take me for example I happily bought the Mushi soundtrack and some gradius toy both ending up near $100 (with shipping, customs and taxes). Importing new Japanese games is not cheap either, still I prefer paying $60 for the Japanese Shikigami no Shiro than $10 for some butchered US port.

Your average mainstream game has no potential at all to make any money on merchandise or soundtracks. I think shmups as a niche genre is going to stay, but we will probably starts seeing developers taking more advantage of the fact that this genre is held up by fans.


(Now I'm talking about the Japanese market, outside Japan and especially in US, I consider shmups dead).