Someone tell me why Sonic CD is the best?

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Skykid
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Someone tell me why Sonic CD is the best?

Post by Skykid »

(Ducks for cover when Ceph shows up!)

Everyone is always saying Sonic CD is the best. I'd never played it properly, but sat down with it this morning.

Firstly, like most mega cd games, it looks like shit. Sometimes I can't tell if the graphics are corrupted, and then I realise it's meant to look that way. Like sprite puke.
There is zero polish on the game. Compared to the stylistic title screens and overall presentation of Sonic 2, this one looks rough.
Where's Sonic's charge animation (down and A)? Instead he just spins like he does normally, and it looks poor. Surely they could reuse the animation - after all they've reused every other background and sprite from the previous games. This looks like a bootleg version of Sonic 1.
The levels are very big. Too big. Like a big mess. Down, up, down - the scale is bewildering. And I have no idea what's going on with this 'past and future' business. Someone enlighten me.
Then I got to that robotnik boss fight with the pinball thing and I thought it was picking up a bit. Until I shot sonic off the pinball buffer and he got stuck in the scenery. Game over.

For me, Sonic 2 is still the most polished, builds to the best climax, has the best bonus stages and has awesome music.

So I really hope someone can change my mind so I can go back to this. I really want it to be the best sonic so I have a new experience - but the way things are looking I don't know if I'll bother.:(
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Post by evil_ash_xero »

Sonic CD isn't very good at all. I don't know what the deal is with the love for that game.

I prefer Sonic 3 and Knuckles the most, but 2 is awesome too.

s/m
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Post by Skykid »

Oh...

Shit.:?

I wish someone had said that before I bought it.

All I ever hear is that it's the best one ever. The best thing about it, at least on the Japanese version, is they manage to plagiarise the word of God on the back cover, accrediting a saying from the bible to Sonic. Lols.
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Strider77
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Post by Strider77 »

It's not my favorite but I thought it look better than part one and was more fun than part one.

2 and 3 are better but 2 and 3 came out after the CD.

Why do you think it looks shitty for a mega drive game?
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Post by jpj »

sonic 3 inserted into a sonic & knuckles is the best

anyone who says sonic cd is the best obviously bought a mega cd for the full rrp :oops:
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Post by chempop »

I like it because it doesn't have all the lame characters that ruined the series. The music is easily the best in any sonic game, shit I still listen to some the songs, reminds me of Cool World which is one of my favorite movies ever.
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Post by Skykid »

chempop wrote: reminds me of Cool World which is one of my favorite movies ever.
God, I'm never playing this again! :shock: (just kidding :wink:)

So... hold on. Sonic CD came out before 2 and 3?! The dates say it's the other way around. That would explain a lot though... :idea:
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Post by MX7 »

I think Sonic CD was finished before Sonic 2 came out, but was pushed back for some reason.
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my longest post ever!

Post by Koa Zo »

Sonic CD is one of the most mis-understood games, it seems.

The graphics look beautiful.
The music is excellent.
The gameplay is spot on.

One common misconception that is often raised is the level design.
Yes they are large; and hard to navigate (at first), but that is the point.

Sonic CD remained true to Yuji Naka's original design of having the most basic control scheme possible for a platformer: Run, and Jump = a "one button" game as he originally intended. (edit: there is quite useful speed boost in Sonic CD - misunderstood Skykids statement and confused myself :oops:)
The "point" of the game requires that you go back in time to destroy Robotnic's pollution machine or whatever it is, so the future will be bright and cheerful.

Sonic CD is about exploration. You aren't going to just push right, and jump to avoid obstacles.

Now, as you explore the levels, it is first necessary to locate the "Past" signposts, and then figure out a way to build up and maintain enough speed to warp into the past. Very often if you choose your path poorly, Sonic will cross a "Future" signpost just as he is fast enough to warp, and will "accidentally" warp to the Future. This was clearly designed to thwart careless and inexperienced players.

Every (iirc) level has one key "give-away" location where it is guaranteed to warp to the past. For instance, on one of the conveyor belt levels you will find a "Past" signpost near a vertical conveyor "tunnel". Hit the switch so the conveyor is running "up" and then when Sonic jumps in he will be spun and juggled by the conveyor belt allowing him to warp without error. Other levels typically have a "Past" sign post near two opposing spring-bumpers. Get between the two bumpers and Sonic will be ricocheted until he warps. As a beginner playing the game most people try to find a straight-away and gather speed by running, this is where the design is brilliant, and you will be thwarted.

Further genius in the level design is apparent in the way the levels are re-mixed between the Past, Present, and Future versions. People have actually argued that these are haphazard careless placements of the platforms and corridors, but those are the people trying to run left to right without learning to explore.

Every level can be speed run, though, once you are experienced enough. Sonic CD includes a Time Attack mode, and it was by completing all of these levels with incredibly low times that further bonuses and extras were unlocked on the game. It takes a lot of practice to find the routes to run most directly from beginning to end of a level, but they are there. Once those routes were learned, they could be applied to the game when playing a complete play through, and by that time you will realize why Sonic CD is the best Sonic game ever created.

To reiterate:
The levels are not haphazard, people's playing skills and expectation were.

Also, can't imagine where Skykid got "stuck" in the background, I've never heard or known of anyone to get stuck by a glitch in the game.

I would have loved to see a comprehensive guide book of this game, I have asked my typical sources in Japan, but no-one has ever seen one. There were some mini-guide supplements that came with Beep! or some other mag, but none that covered everything in the game. There are so many little secrets and nuances.

After countless playthroughs, I recently stumbled upon a hidden chamber underwater that contained a statue (like a goddess or sea maiden), when touched she started spewing rings - I was delighted! the game continues to offer surprises over a decade after its release.
Last edited by Koa Zo on Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by SamIAm »

Sonic CD isn't my favorite Sonic - Sonic 3 is, by far. But it's my #2 for the series, and I much prefer it to Sonic 2.

It's good to think of it as a different take on a sequel to Sonic 1; it and Sonic 2 were being developed simultaneously, after all. Sonic 2 was all about getting the fairly linear levels of Sonic 1 to be faster and more streamlined, while Sonic CD preserved Sonic 1's pacing and expanded the levels to give more exploration-oriented gameplay. If you don't like Sonic 1 and you don't like games that encourage you to discover all the nooks and crannies of their levels, Sonic CD is probably a bad idea for you.

I never blast through the zones quickly. It's all about relaxing and wandering around. It may not be easy to tell in the first couple zones, but you're probably playing Sonic CD with the wrong attitude if you use the dash a lot. Yes, the animation and execution are lame, but you're not supposed to use it that much. Also, the peel-out (hold up instead of down for the dash) is great and I wish Sonic 3 had had it.

Real quick about the past/future stuff: Every level has a present, past, and future. The future can be good or bad, and it's your job to make it good. Note that good and bad futures have completely different stages, giving each zone 4 different versions of itself. You start off in the present in every stage, and you are supposed to go to the past, find a machine hidden in the level (they all look vaguely like metal hamburger buns) and destroy it. From the moment you do this, the future will be good, and if you do it in every stage, you'll get an easier boss stage and a better ending. Also, if you get all the "time stones", the machine in the past is destroyed automatically, and you don't have to worry about it. To change time zones, "collect" a signpost, then build up enough speed so that you have stardust trailing you, and keep it up until you warp.

Objectively comparing the way the graphical tiles are put together, I can't see why you'd call Sonic CD "sprite puke". There's some pretty clever shading and geometry in Sonic CD, and I'd bet you that there are more tiles per level than in Sonic 2. Subjectively speaking, I love the art in Sonic CD. I think it's more imaginative, and it pushes more limits. Sonic 2 had good art, too, but this is just different.

I also happen to like the US soundtrack more than the Japanese one, but that seems to just be me.

Give Sonic CD a fair shake. I wasn't too keen on it the first time I played, but once I was familiar with some of the stages and comfortable with the way it's supposed to work, I genuinely loved it.

Oh, and tell me Sonic 2 has more exciting special stages after you've beaten on of Sonic CD's in 15 seconds.

EDIT: looks like I was beaten on the Sonic CD-rules essay. Where is that statue, anyway?
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Post by Mortificator »

It was interesting to explore the first time through Sonic CD, but there's not much motivation to do it again, for me anyway. With the four Genesis games, I'll go back to them and randomly replay a couple zones every so often, but with CD the only parts that are really suited to that are the death race against Metal Sonic and some of the Eggman fights. I guess it's more rewarding for the spelunker-minded folk. I know there's a Metal-hologram in all the zones 1 & 2, but I've never heard of the mermaid stature you talked about, and now I kinda want to see it for myself.

CD's Naka noninvolvement is probably why it feels odd compared to the Genesis quartet. The peel-out wasn't bad, though, and I was glad to see an improved version in Triple Trouble.
Skykid wrote:The best thing about it, at least on the Japanese version, is they manage to plagiarise the word of God on the back cover, accrediting a saying from the bible to Sonic. Lols.
It's a quote from JFK, not Jesus.
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Post by Koa Zo »

SamIAm wrote:
Give Sonic CD a fair shake. I wasn't too keen on it the first time I played, but once I was familiar with some of the stages and comfortable with the way it's supposed to work, I genuinely loved it.

Oh, and tell me Sonic 2 has more exciting special stages after you've beaten on of Sonic CD's in 15 seconds.

EDIT: looks like I was beaten on the Sonic CD-rules essay. Where is that statue, anyway?


Great post SamIAm!
I couldn't agree more with your take on the graphics and the bonus stages.
Indeed, shaving seconds off the Bonus Stage times in the Time Attack mode was some intense gaming and posed a real challenge.

I've tried to find that statue again, and haven't. (Though I don't exactly play Sonic CD regularly either.) It was in the Tidal Tempest Zone, at the "ground floor" of the stage. iirc, you ride through one of those tube transports and it spits you out near the bottom of the level, then I traversed left and saw a suspicious wall to the left. I have no doubt that it was a wall to the left that was broken, and then the statue was inside.
The real catch is: was it in the Past, Present, Future, or Good-Future version of the level?

I've always had a suspicion that there is more to the Future levels than first meets the eye. Obviously the Good-Future levels do not have any enemies, only spikes or crushing Sonic can cause damage. But at the same time; iirc, it is not easy to accumulate rings in the Future levels, thus making it difficult to end a future level with 50+ rings to access the Bonus Stages.

Damn it, thanks to this thread I'm digging Sonic CD out of storage and playing it this week. Let's see what I can find...

edit:
taking a quick look on YouTube to see if my memory would be jogged about the statue, I was reminded of the fact that the boss stages often (always) have 100 rings available, so if you search them out you can always get an extra life before confronting the boss.

And about those "hologram metal sonics", I've never heard/read an explanation of what occurs when you destroy them. My memory is getting confused now, didn't the "enemies" turn back into flickies and rabbits and whatnot after the Metal Sonic hologram was destroyed in the past?
Yes, I know if you destroy the "pollution machine" all the enemies revert back to their cuddly non-threatening selves, and also the Metal hologram will be gone too. But what happens in the Future levels if you destroy the Past hologram, but not the pollution machine?

(and what is the correct term/description for that "pollution machine"?)
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Post by chempop »

I heard that the japanese development team who created the original Sonic teamed up with some US Sega employees to make sonic 2, but the original team got fed up (with god only knows what) and left it to the americans to finish the game. Does this ring any bells with anyone here?

glad to hear others views on Sonic CD, and maybe some of the info here can help others realize why it is so darned good, possibly the best Sonic game to date (and certainly my favorite). God I hate Knuckles.
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Post by Skykid »

It's a quote from JFK, not Jesus.
Ha ha! Dumb!

It struck me as religious at a glance. Plagiarising JFK is equally as funny.

Okay, thanks to all for the tips. I'm going to approach it again at a slower pace (I was trying to bomb through it) and attempt to locate these machines to clean up the future. Then when I warp to the future it's all pleasant and nice right?

Are there two different endings to the game?

As for sprite puke well...the MCD colour palette is clearly even worse than the megadrive, and some of the level design does appear very haphazard and ugly - almost glitchy.

I certainly did get stuck in the wall btw. I was pinging off of the flippers when fighting robotnik on that casino-esque stage and went spinning in to a wall section, thus to spin into infinity.

Anyone know if you can save your game in this? (seems to want to wipe the MCD RAM so I'm guessing it might?)
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Post by SamIAm »

You know, it kind of sounds like your system or game is messed up. It really shouldn't be that messy. Definitely not if you're used to Sonic 2. Go look up some screenshots and compare.

Sonic CD saves automatically every time you progress to a new zone. Like S3&K, you can't save at acts, just zones.

The color palette for the MCD and the MD are identical, btw. The MCD doesn't have its own video processor; it uses the MD one. All the MCD has, besides a second CPU and some RAM, is a chip that can write one of the MD's VDP background planes as a mode-7 field.
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Post by 320x240 »

How is this game related to the Sonic CD that came out for the PC back when windows 95 was hot? Since I never had any of the 8-/16-bit consoles, that was the first Sonic game I ever played. I remember being surprised by the amount of exploration to be done, thinking that Sonic was all about speed (and liking that idea more).
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Post by Kiken »

Koa Zo wrote:Sonic CD is one of the most mis-understood games, it seems.

The graphics look beautiful.
The music is excellent.
The gameplay is spot on.

One common misconception that is often raised is the level design.
Yes they are large; and hard to navigate (at first), but that is the point.

Sonic CD remained true to Yuji Naka's original design of having the most basic control scheme possible for a platformer: Run, and Jump = a "one button" game as he originally intended. That is likely why there is no charge speed-boost ~ it was never a part of Naka's original Sonic design.

The "point" of the game requires that you go back in time to destroy Robotnic's pollution machine or whatever it is, so the future will be bright and cheerful.

Sonic CD is about exploration. You aren't going to just push right, and jump to avoid obstacles.

Now, as you explore the levels, it is first necessary to locate the "Past" signposts, and then figure out a way to build up and maintain enough speed to warp into the past. Very often if you choose your path poorly, Sonic will cross a "Future" signpost just as he is fast enough to warp, and will "accidentally" warp to the Future. This was clearly designed to thwart careless and inexperienced players.

Every (iirc) level has one key "give-away" location where it is guaranteed to warp to the past. For instance, on one of the conveyor belt levels you will find a "Past" signpost near a vertical conveyor "tunnel". Hit the switch so the conveyor is running "up" and then when Sonic jumps in he will be spun and juggled by the conveyor belt allowing him to warp without error. Other levels typically have a "Past" sign post near two opposing spring-bumpers. Get between the two bumpers and Sonic will be ricocheted until he warps. As a beginner playing the game most people try to find a straight-away and gather speed by running, this is where the design is brilliant, and you will be thwarted.

Further genius in the level design is apparent in the way the levels are re-mixed between the Past, Present, and Future versions. People have actually argued that these are haphazard careless placements of the platforms and corridors, but those are the people trying to run left to right without learning to explore.

Every level can be speed run, though, once you are experienced enough. Sonic CD includes a Time Attack mode, and it was by completing all of these levels with incredibly low times that further bonuses and extras were unlocked on the game. It takes a lot of practice to find the routes to run most directly from beginning to end of a level, but they are there. Once those routes were learned, they could be applied to the game when playing a complete play through, and by that time you will realize why Sonic CD is the best Sonic game ever created.

To reiterate:
The levels are not haphazard, people's playing skills and expectation were.

Also, can't imagine where Skykid got "stuck" in the background, I've never heard or known of anyone to get stuck by a glitch in the game.

I would have loved to see a comprehensive guide book of this game, I have asked my typical sources in Japan, but no-one has ever seen one. There were some mini-guide supplements that came with Beep! or some other mag, but none that covered everything in the game. There are so many little secrets and nuances.

After countless playthroughs, I recently stumbled upon a hidden chamber underwater that contained a statue (like a goddess or sea maiden), when touched she started spewing rings - I was delighted! the game continues to offer surprises over a decade after its release.
This.

Sonic CD is my favourite in the series for many of the reasons listed above. It feels different because this was supposed to be Naoto Oshima's concept of how a Sonic game should be.

Also, there's a bonus ring statue located in Wacky Workbench. Zone 1 Present, IIRC. About mid-way through the level at the bottom there's a halfpipe that can be jumped through. You run through a small corridor and the statue is at the end.
Koa Zo wrote: And about those "hologram metal sonics", I've never heard/read an explanation of what occurs when you destroy them. My memory is getting confused now, didn't the "enemies" turn back into flickies and rabbits and whatnot after the Metal Sonic hologram was destroyed in the past?
Yes, I know if you destroy the "pollution machine" all the enemies revert back to their cuddly non-threatening selves, and also the Metal hologram will be gone too. But what happens in the Future levels if you destroy the Past hologram, but not the pollution machine?
Destroying the Metal Sonic holograms triggers bonus animals to appear in the stage. IIRC, destroying the Metal Sonic hologram only has effect in the Past and Good Future levels.
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Post by Skykid »

SamIAm wrote:You know, it kind of sounds like your system or game is messed up. It really shouldn't be that messy. Definitely not if you're used to Sonic 2. Go look up some screenshots and compare.
I don't think the system is messed up. :D
It looks exactly like this:

Image

Image

A bit fugly.
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Post by Momijitsuki »

It's all a matter of opinion of course. Why do people Final Fantasy VII? I personally thought it was awful-- the graphics are bad, the gameplay is difficult due to clunkiness, the story was loaded with plot holes, and yet it's known as one of the best RPGs of all time and has had multiple spinoff titles.

Now, I'm not a Sonic fan, but from the pictures I've seen, it doesn't look much different to the Genesis titles. I guess I'm just bitter since Sonic made it into Super Smash Bros. Brawl. How annoying.
Image
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Post by gennss »

I think part of the problem is a lot of people first got into sonic starting with sonic 2. segacd seems older than sonic 2. feels almost like its in between 1 and 2. (i would've called it 1.5)

It's not a bad game, but not anywhere near my favorite.
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Post by Skykid »

Agreed on FF7. It's no way near the best of the series. It all peaked with 6 I reckon.
The graphics were good at the time though. :wink:
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Post by D »

Never played or saw Sonic CD. Is it on some disc compilation somewhere?
Or how/where should I play it besides on the real original hardware.
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Post by MX7 »

I always thought FF7 had the best graphics :? I loved the mixed bag approach. I think the reason FF8 was such a letdown for me was because the unity of the style made the game tedious and not at all charming.

Skykid, I've heard off one of my Sonic loving housemates that he was a bit disappointed with Sonic CD, but it's worth sticking with. I haven't played it yet, but I will get round to it one of these days, if only for the music :D
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Post by BulletMagnet »

D wrote:Never played or saw Sonic CD. Is it on some disc compilation somewhere?
Or how/where should I play it besides on the real original hardware.
Sonic Gems Collection, I think it made it to all 3 of the last-gen systems.
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Post by szycag »

Sonic Gems Collection:
JP/NA/EU - Gamecube
JP/EU - PS2

Don't confuse this with Sonic Mega Collection, which has Sonic 1-3, Knuckles etc. This is more of a supplement to that which has the rare Sonic games like the 3d fighting game and of course Sonic CD. Also has a ton of Game Gear games that weren't in the SMC.

The Kega Fusion emulator will play Sega CD games.

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Post by E. Randy Dupre »

Worth pointing out that the EU version of Sonic Gems Collection included the US version of Sonic CD, rather than the PAL one. So, a lesser version, thanks to the music. It's also 50Hz only, so watch out. If you're getting it, the Japanese version is the way to go.

Incidentally, the second of ths screenshots in your earlier post, Skykid, is from the 'bad future' version of one of the levels. It looks manky because it's *supposed* to look manky.
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Post by szycag »

Oh, the Japanese version is also the way to go because it includes Bare Knuckle 1-3. The US version (and EU?) includes Vectorman 1 and 2 so that the ESRB rating didn't go up.
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Post by benstylus »

E. Randy Dupre wrote:Worth pointing out that the EU version of Sonic Gems Collection included the US version of Sonic CD, rather than the PAL one. So, a lesser version, thanks to the music.
I don't know what everyone sees as superior about the japanese soundtrack... i've got both the US and Japanese versions of the game, and I vastly prefer the US soundtrack (especially the title theme. "Toot Toot Sonic Warrior" is absolute poop.)
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Post by system11 »

Skykid wrote:As for sprite puke well...the MCD colour palette is clearly even worse than the megadrive
This isn't even possible. The Mega-CD is just a storage add-on, the palette is the MD palette. The only differences are the colours they chose to use.
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Post by evil_ash_xero »

One of my bigger problems is the level design is quite poor. You can seriously just muck around for 10 minutes before you figure out some poorly designed stage's trick.

As for the music...I have no clue why everyone is so up on this soundtrack. The music is OK, but nowhere near the trilogy's standards, and god damn, those singers gotta go.

s/m
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