Need your opinions on Battle Garegga for Saturn

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Fri May 20, 2005 7:25 pm

Loved playing in MAME and was looking to buy a copy off eBay. Since prices on imports are crazy, it'll probably cost me $100 plus shipping to obtain a copy. I heard this shmup has an evil ranking system that punishes players who use standard shmup tatics (i.e. Blast everything in sight, grab every powerup, NEVER stop shooting), but evil ranking systems don't bother me. I loved playing it on MAME, even if I did suck at it. The atmosphere and music is good, which is something I like in a shmup.

So, is Garegga worthy of $100, or do I go blow that money on two crappy mainstream titles?

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Fri May 20, 2005 7:39 pm

It's worth $100, yes, get the god damn game!

Diabollokus · Post by **Diabollokus** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:02 pm

Yes get it. its worth 100$ easy one of the top4 shmups I've played thats coming from an ikaruga and silvergun owner!

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:23 pm

The idea of it not being on the top 25 is stupid. This is Raizing at the top of their form with very fluid and loose gameplay. Two games will never be the same. More so, you can pretty much play it whatever way you want to.

Most of the criticism comes from score hounds, but if you aren't trying to compete with some of the more outlandish scores that employ unorthodox scoring methods, this isn't problematic.

Visuals are GREAT. Music is GREAT. Gameplay is GREAT. And guess what, the saturn port is GREAT.

Saturn port also lets you utilize a small hit box and gives you access to extra planes.

Given that you can't get a good hooker for $100, I can't think of anything better you can do than picking up Garegga.

LoneSage · Post by **LoneSage** » Sat May 21, 2005 3:25 am

Fuck Silvergun, this is the Saturn's crowning shmup.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:12 am

Saturn port also lets you utilize a small hit box

So does the PCB.

At any rate, if you want the game, buy it. If you're not paying attention to the rank, scoring, etc, though, you'll never get anywhere in it. I recommend reading the ST in the strategy section.

If you're not gonna play it properly, and not very often and just hoard it, might as well leave it for someone who will, since it's pretty rare.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Sat May 21, 2005 4:43 am

I admittedly like Radiant Silvergun more than Garegga, but I still like Garegga a lot. Expensive but tons of fun.

Neon wrote: If you're not gonna play it properly, and not very often and just hoard it, might as well leave it for someone who will, since it's pretty rare.

I'm afraid fail both of your qualifiers there. I don't give a crap about all the crazy score stuff in the game (never have), and I don't play it very often, but I still like having it. It's tons of fun even if you don't worry about getting huge multipliers and what medals to get / not to get, when to bomb, etc.

sven666 · Post by **sven666** » Sat May 21, 2005 10:30 am

console wise there is none better..

Ord · Post by **Ord** » Sat May 21, 2005 10:42 am

I prefer the Saturn port of Battle Garegga to the pcb. It's an incredible port of a fantastic game. Highly recomended.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sat May 21, 2005 9:51 pm

Neon wrote: If you're not gonna play it properly, and not very often and just hoard it, might as well leave it for someone who will, since it's pretty rare.

Good lord! OK, let me sell all my games since I don't play them right and somebody else deserves them!

For the record, I get about as far whether I play it the 'right' way or 'my' way. My way is more fun, and unlike a lot of posters on this board, that's the main reason I play video games.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Sat May 21, 2005 9:58 pm

CMoon wrote: Given that you can't get a good hooker for $100, I can't think of anything better you can do than picking up Garegga.

haha

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sat May 21, 2005 10:09 pm

Garegga is like Mars Matrix for me-- it completely kicks my ass and it is hard to feel I'm making much progress. At the moment I'm getting a bit better at MM, but Garegga is getting very little playing time. So far I'd have to say that I haven't gotten my money's worth (paid about $80), though I am glad that I own it. I expect that someday I'll get to level 3. My rule is that if I cannot get to level 3 on one credit, then the game is too damn hard.

llabnip · Post by **llabnip** » Sat May 21, 2005 11:18 pm

I'm the lone nay-sayer with Garegga. I've tried to give it the time it deserves (over 25 hours of play now). Clearly well designed and well implemented. But the hidden rank system that _must_ be understood to play it properly and the bullets lost amongst the shrapnel really turn me off this one. I've tried with and without the "visible bullet" option in the Saturn version - having some bullets visible actually makes it worse in some ways... far too many "what just killed me?!" moments. Anyway, it's a well designed game that pushes a huge number of sprites around on the Saturn (comparable to Raiden DX on the PSX) that may or may not be your cup of tea. No game can be universally liked by everyone. I'd put Garegga in my lower-tiered Saturn shooters and I do play it occasionally (no, it's not for sale).

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sun May 22, 2005 12:08 am

llabnip wrote:I'm the lone nay-sayer with Garegga. I've tried to give it the time it deserves (over 25 hours of play now). Clearly well designed and well implemented. But the hidden rank system that _must_ be understood to play it properly and the bullets lost amongst the shrapnel really turn me off this one. .

How far are you getting in the game? I'm getting through level 4, sometimes up to level 5 almost completely ignoring rank.

Two things that help (but they involve deviating from default) are turning on the 'red ball' option and turning on the small hit box. Both of these make the game a LOT better.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Sun May 22, 2005 12:53 am

CMoon wrote:How far are you getting in the game? I'm getting through level 4, sometimes up to level 5 almost completely ignoring rank.

Two things that help (but they involve deviating from default) are turning on the 'red ball' option and turning on the small hit box. Both of these make the game a LOT better.

I'm going to have to try these suggestions out-- a smaller hit box would REALLY help, as would the ability to see the bullets! (I assume the red ball option makes bullets more visible?)

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Sun May 22, 2005 12:59 am

I know you also enable the Mahou characters, are they grossly overpowered compared to the standard planes, or does teh Ev1L ranking system makes it so that the most hardcore avoids them?

Like I said, the rank system doesn't really bother me. Shmups are supposed to be hard to begin with, you crybabies.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:32 am

FatCobra wrote:Shmups are supposed to be hard to begin with, you crybabies.

There's a fine line between hard and unreasonable, and I think Battle Garegga flies past it. But since you already like it in MAME, the Saturn version is a very good port of it.

And by the way, we get that you don't like spending $50 on mainstream titles. Honestly. We get it. It's clear. Really. And the joke isn't getting the least bit long in the tooth. Honestly. I promise.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:33 am

I just never got why everyone hates the rank in garegga when at its toughest it is no worse than DOJ, and you can't make DOJ easier. I can't even beat level two in DOJ but I can get to level 5 in Garegga with all the wierd rank business. I just don't understand...

llabnip · Post by **llabnip** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:34 am

FatCobra wrote:Like I said, the rank system doesn't really bother me. Shmups are supposed to be hard to begin with, you crybabies.

Hard is fine. Having to deal with an invisible ranking system where you need to avoid powerups and actually die to maintain a reasonable rank is just beyond my threshold.

I can get up through the end of level 4 and made it to level 5 twice after applying the non-powerup and die occasionally techniques. It's just too counter-intuitive for me to enjoy. Then there is the occasional hidden bullet that nails me which can be frustrating (I know some people can see everything fine in the debris... I'm not one of them).

The only person that can really answer your question as to whether it's worth $100 is you... you've played it and the Saturn version is a wonderful port. If you already like the game, you'll love the Saturn port.

FatCobra · Post by **FatCobra** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:37 am

sethsez wrote:And by the way, we get that you don't like spending $50 on mainstream titles. Honestly. We get it. It's clear. Really. And the joke isn't getting the least bit long in the tooth. Honestly. I promise.

Okay, I know I have been saying that alot, and it's getting on people's nerves, so I'll stop with it. $50 is only a really big deal when you don't have a job.

TVG · Post by **TVG** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:37 am

CMoon wrote:I just never got why everyone hates the rank in garegga when at its toughest it is no worse than DOJ, and you can't make DOJ easier. I can't even beat level two in DOJ but I can get to level 5 in Garegga with all the wierd rank business. I just don't understand...

neither do i, but i think most people just dont bother with DOJ because of the rumors, and the rumors are true, its a fuckin beast, dont buy it if you're not ready to feel bad.

i dont really understand the ccomplaint about ranking systeems eitheer, if the rank is too hard, play until you loose a life, voila, rank resets.
im not too interested about garegga because of the super obscure scoring system tho...and what i played on mame didnt seem too hot, but ill see one day.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:38 am

visible ranking system where you need to avoid powerups and actually die to maintain a reasonable rank is just beyond my threshold.

I can get up through the end of level 4 and made it to level 5 twice after applying the non-powerup and die occasionally techniques. It's just too counter-intuitive for me to enjoy. Then there is the occasional hidden bullet that nails me which can be frustrating (I know some people can see everything fine in the debris... I'm not one of them).[/quote]

Yeah, but I'm getting to level 5 without messing about too much with the rank thingy or suiciding. And thats about as far as I get with any shmups. Really, this is my point, if no one had ever said anything about the rank or suiciding, would anyone even think about this?

Don't worry llabnip, I'll come over some time and we'll play Garegga 2P with small hitboxes and orange bullets and you'll see how great this game is!

llabnip · Post by **llabnip** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:42 am

CMoon wrote:Yeah, but I'm getting to level 5 without messing about too much with the rank thingy or suiciding. And thats about as far as I get with any shmups. Really, this is my point, if no one had ever said anything about the rank or suiciding, would anyone even think about this?

Don't worry llabnip, I'll come over some time and we'll play Garegga 2P with small hitboxes and orange bullets and you'll see how great this game is!

Well, you're comparing apples and oranges... I was only able to get to level 3 before attempting to manipulate the ranking system. I suspect you would do even better if you put effort into trying to deal with the ranking system.

... we've already determined that you are a better shooter player than I am... but I can still hold my own with Sakura against your Guile!

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:46 am

The vagrant wrote:i dont really understand the ccomplaint about ranking systeems eitheer, if the rank is too hard, play until you loose a life, voila, rank resets.

To the best of my knowledge that's not how it works, at least not always...in Garegga, afaik, dying will either lower the rank to some degree or slow down how fast it increases, but there's no way that it "resets" it...you're still stuck with some degree of the punishment you incurred from shooting too many bullets earlier on. Newbies will still be eaten alive by the rank if they don't know exactly how more or less every facet of the game works, from the hidden scoring opportunities (in order to earn enough extends to survive) to exactly what makes the rank increase or decrease, to the exact spots you have to finagle with it. I've heard varying opinions on this (some say you NEED to mess with the rank just to one-credit the game, others say you don't need it unless you're trying to score a lot) but either way, for all the good things the game does, one thing it definitely isn't is accessible to casual players.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:47 am

llabnip wrote: ... we've already determined that you are a better shooter player than I am... but I can still hold my own with Sakura against your Guile!

Haha, you jest sir! I'm sure you are far better than me at Border Down and probably Gradius V by now.

It probably doesn't hurt that I play Garegga in tate, close up.

Guile vs. Sakura???!! Give me a break. I have fists of god (and fishing's great)

llabnip · Post by **llabnip** » Sun May 22, 2005 1:59 am

BulletMagnet wrote:
The vagrant wrote:i dont really understand the ccomplaint about ranking systeems eitheer, if the rank is too hard, play until you loose a life, voila, rank resets.
To the best of my knowledge that's not how it works, at least not always...in Garegga, afaik, dying will either lower the rank to some degree or slow down how fast it increases, but there's no way that it "resets" it...

Correct... and the ranking system is not based on powerups alone. Alamone and FelixTheCat have both put out some thoughts on this in the past (I'm not sure ANYONE really knows it all for sure...). To paraphrase what I remember:

Rank depends on MANY things... but this is for sure:

each bullet fired from your ship (and options) increases rank.

item collection bumps rank - item collection when items are maxed out increases rank much faster. Larger items increase rank faster.

Special shot or option powerups increase rank.

10k medals will actually decrease rank when missed (and if there are several on screen, you can manipulate this a bit based on the medals on screen and your timing the pickups) .

Killing yourself lowers rank somewhat (but does NOT reset it).

It has been suggested that it is ideal to suicide when you have one life in stock with a score close to an extend. There are other ranking factors as well... it's fairly complex and not at all intuitive to the way most players want to play scrolling shooters. It wasn't designed and hidden to be fair, but rather to eat quarters.

Cthulhu · Post by **Cthulhu** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:16 am

CMoon wrote:I just never got why everyone hates the rank in garegga when at its toughest it is no worse than DOJ, and you can't make DOJ easier. I can't even beat level two in DOJ but I can get to level 5 in Garegga with all the wierd rank business. I just don't understand...

I can get considerably farther in DDP:DOJ than I can in Garegga... for what reason, I don't know.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:32 am

llabnip wrote:each bullet fired from your ship (and options) increases rank.

And don't forget that larger/more powered-up bullets add more to the rank than less powerful ones, on top of that. And IIRC every enemy you kill also adds to the rank increase...I think there's an ST thread in the Strategy section here which goes into more detail.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Sun May 22, 2005 5:17 am

I know you also enable the Mahou characters, are they grossly overpowered compared to the standard planes, or does teh Ev1L ranking system makes it so that the most hardcore avoids them?

the bonus characters are quite well balanced compared to the regular ship. Gain has a bomb that can be abused for score by suiciding (because suiciding allows you to use the bomb more often and more quickly in succession), but it´s completely useless as a defensive tool.
Some characters have wide spreads or homing weapons which make survival easier, but they cause enemies to drop medals all over the screen which makes medal chaining that much harder.

Concerning the rank system, I think it gets way too much attention. People don´t die because it´s so punishing, but because they concentrate on keeping rank low so much they lose attention for bullets around them.

DC906270 · Post by **DC906270** » Sun May 22, 2005 9:47 am

I have never known what 'rank' was or is, but i have owned Garegga for about 1 year now and have had hours and hours of fun with it. Have managed to get to stage 6 "base" level and racked up around 2700000 points. Furthest i have been on one credit is the cloud stage, stage 5. I agree that it appears to get tougher as you progress without losing a life, whereas there would not be as many bullets on screen if you kept dying. But this frantic gameplay is the reason i love shmups and is what makes Garegga a great game, regardless of the 'ranking' system

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