About Microsoft rejection of Cave shooters for XBLA!!!

escadrille · Post by **escadrille** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:02 am

Kaspal wrote:
escadrille wrote:
jonny5 wrote:yes they are going to be released as retail games....they were rejected as xbox live titles.....so the developer switched to a retail release instead....

only down side to this is you will either need a japanese region 360 or a modded one

I'm actually pleased by this news. I prefer a packaged game to DLC when available.
most of us preffer it that way too, problem here is, since most japanese games are region locked, most of us wont have the chance to try the games...

It's inconvenient, but there are workarounds, as others have pointed out.

RuffNEC · Post by **RuffNEC** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:05 am

RuffNEC wrote:SO THIS Means we won't get Dodonpachi and Ketsui for the Xbox 360 ? I always tought that the will came out on DVD ?!

ok. so it's great. Gives me a reason to have a jpn xbox 360

adrenalinq · Post by **adrenalinq** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:39 am

The problem is NOT NOSTALGIA! I buy old arcade games not for that! Easy games are pointless and dumb waste of time. Thats why I can’t finish GTA4 - the game is too easy and has no challenge (great story but I value gameplay). Most of hardcore gamers turned to online play and old arcade games. This is a big problem of modern gaming industry - the games are too dumb and don’t let player to think. Actually they don’t want player to think! If you get something easy and free you can’t grow and become smarter. Games like King Kong with puzzles “bring me a stick” makes me think that one day we will sit in theater with 3 button pads and vote for characters next move. And this game will be awarded as “Mmo Rpg of year”. It is great we have developers like Itagaki who shares my opinion.

Now we got this "high critically acclaimed" Braid and it is one of the easiest puzzle games ever made. I will not discuss the corruption and incompetence of modern journalism. Have you played Keys 2 on NES? The game has growing difficulty from “too easy for 5 year old kid” to “spend a whole day to beat next puzzle” - thats what I call a great puzzle game. You have to be very dumb not to beat Braid in 2 hours what leaves frustration, zero challenge and no replay value. Braid teaches you nothing and does not deserve the score. It is a great game for age from 5 to 8.

I think that Cave lineup port is worth mention on Microsoft press conference on big show like TGS and E3.

Human psychology that naturally force him to become a prehistoric dumb-ass
1) I want to save/continue/resume anytime
2) I don’t want to lose
3) I want to get reward for my every action now
4) I only want to plan so far ahead
5) I don’t want to think/micro control/concentrate
Making a perfect balance between itch to throw joypad into the screen and making a new plan to kill overwhelming wave of demons in 30th time is what makes old arcade games so great. Think about that.

Thats what I think.

gs68 · Post by **gs68** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:13 am

A typical gamer's response to a new arcade game: "Man, fuck this shit, this crap should come to consoles! I'm not paying 50 cents!"

A typical gamer's response to an arcade port on a console: "Man, fuck this shit, this crap should be left in the arcades."

In other words, the majority of today's gamers want arcade games to be obliterated from the market forever.

Motorherp · Post by **Motorherp** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:59 am

jonny5 wrote:yes they are going to be released as retail games....they were rejected as xbox live titles.....so the developer switched to a retail release instead....

Indeed. The real sting though is that I got the impression that they were considering porting many more that just those two games to XBLA, but now that Microsoft has said no they've restricted themselves to only releasing the two titles via retail:

"Out initial plan was to port lots of good arcade titles to XBLA. We talked to IP holders of these titles, and persuaded them. We secured these licenses, and finally talked with Microsoft. There they rejected all of our proposals saying, 'We are going to cut down faithful arcade ports.' We felt so frustrated. We wanted to show them that their decision was wrong. So we switched our two most promising projects into retail."

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:46 am

Motorherp wrote:
jonny5 wrote:yes they are going to be released as retail games....they were rejected as xbox live titles.....so the developer switched to a retail release instead....
Indeed. The real sting though is that I got the impression that they were considering porting many more that just those two games to XBLA, but now that Microsoft has said no they've restricted themselves to only releasing the two titles via retail:

"Out initial plan was to port lots of good arcade titles to XBLA. We talked to IP holders of these titles, and persuaded them. We secured these licenses, and finally talked with Microsoft. There they rejected all of our proposals saying, 'We are going to cut down faithful arcade ports.' We felt so frustrated. We wanted to show them that their decision was wrong. So we switched our two most promising projects into retail."

PS3 doesn't have those games. If Microsoft can get the markets that other consoles do not have, then surely that gives them a 1up on the others. What this comes down to is that they want games which will sell 1m units on XBLA. Not 30,000. Lets face it, they won't sell more than 30,000.

Motorherp · Post by **Motorherp** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:48 am

neorichieb1971 wrote:
Motorherp wrote:
jonny5 wrote:yes they are going to be released as retail games....they were rejected as xbox live titles.....so the developer switched to a retail release instead....
Indeed. The real sting though is that I got the impression that they were considering porting many more that just those two games to XBLA, but now that Microsoft has said no they've restricted themselves to only releasing the two titles via retail:

"Out initial plan was to port lots of good arcade titles to XBLA. We talked to IP holders of these titles, and persuaded them. We secured these licenses, and finally talked with Microsoft. There they rejected all of our proposals saying, 'We are going to cut down faithful arcade ports.' We felt so frustrated. We wanted to show them that their decision was wrong. So we switched our two most promising projects into retail."

PS3 doesn't have those games. If Microsoft can get the markets that other consoles do not have, then surely that gives them a 1up on the others. What this comes down to is that they want games which will sell 1m units on XBLA. Not 30,000. Lets face it, they won't sell more than 30,000.

Who said anything about PS3? Is it impossible to talk about consoles without it turning into a console war?

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:46 pm

LGB wrote:Cave on the Wii please.

dmauro · Post by **dmauro** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:57 pm

adrenalinq wrote:some stuff about Braid

Sorry to continue the off-topic, but I just wanted to say that my friends and I are all reasonably intelligent people and it took all of us around six hours to go through the whole game, not two. Also, learning to speed run the levels (many of the levels are very cleverly arranged with speed runs in mind) is like learning to solve those puzzles all over again. I've never played a puzzle game as challenging and interesting as Braid.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:07 pm

Motorherp wrote:
jonny5 wrote:yes they are going to be released as retail games....they were rejected as xbox live titles.....so the developer switched to a retail release instead....
Indeed. The real sting though is that I got the impression that they were considering porting many more that just those two games to XBLA, but now that Microsoft has said no they've restricted themselves to only releasing the two titles via retail:

"Out initial plan was to port lots of good arcade titles to XBLA. We talked to IP holders of these titles, and persuaded them. We secured these licenses, and finally talked with Microsoft. There they rejected all of our proposals saying, 'We are going to cut down faithful arcade ports.' We felt so frustrated. We wanted to show them that their decision was wrong. So we switched our two most promising projects into retail."

thats very sad, cuz i'd pay for every single game that come out for XBLA if its one of the CAVE games.. i mean, wouldnt you guys love to have all those gems on your console, and give them a go from time to time, for 10 bux a piece?...

really sad... here's hope for the retail versions to be non region locked... i'd imort them right away.

neorichieb1971 · Post by **neorichieb1971** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:14 pm

Console war?

Jesus man get a grip

. All I was saying is that if you introduce a product the other consoles do not have you immediately gain an exclusive audience. Instead of MS stating BS like they don't like faithful arcade games they should be thinking of the 30,000 people of which 5000 might be new XB360 owners. Me being one of them.

RuffNEC · Post by **RuffNEC** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:05 pm

honestly what is better a digital xbox live release or a DVD Release incl. Cover and Manual ?

A dvd Release is way better!!

Motorherp · Post by **Motorherp** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:27 pm

neorichieb1971 wrote:Console war?

Jesus man get a grip . All I was saying is that if you introduce a product the other consoles do not have you immediately gain an exclusive audience. Instead of MS stating BS like they don't like faithful arcade games they should be thinking of the 30,000 people of which 5000 might be new XB360 owners. Me being one of them.

That's true. I'm also contemplating the idea of importing a 360 from Japan when these games get released. It is a small market though which is why they probably dont see it as worth their while, especially considering the poor uptake rate of the 360 in Japan which would be the majority of the market for this genre.

PS: Guess I misunderstood your message, sorry about that. I'm just sick of not being able to have a discussion about games without it turning into a "my console is better than yours" bitching war

.

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:12 pm

RuffNEC wrote:A dvd Release is way better!!

Even though i agree, the problem there is that we can't be certain if it will be region free or not.
On XBLA it would be no trouble at all, plus it would come cheap, plus it would more or less create more profit because of the cut-in at production costs.
> That could lead to even more ports.
But then again, that's just dreaming.

adrenalinq · Post by **adrenalinq** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:37 am

Sorry to continue the off-topic, but I just wanted to say that my friends and I are all reasonably intelligent people and it took all of us around six hours to go through the whole game, not two. Also, learning to speed run the levels (many of the levels are very cleverly arranged with speed runs in mind) is like learning to solve those puzzles all over again. I've never played a puzzle game as challenging and interesting as Braid.

Man, just download any NES emulator and play Keys 2 (it is japan game) - this is one of the best puzzles ever created - you gonna love it.

Lets face it, they won't sell more than 30,000.

I am not agree. Ikaruga sold more. Metal Slug 3 sold more. Plus 30000Xnumber of cave ports=big money.

I think that the main problem is the way the XBLA portfolio manager sees its future - new original games. But the fact is that we just get remakes and more remakes. Galaga Legions and Bionic Commando.

Post by **Ghegs** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:01 am

adrenalinq wrote:I think that the main problem is the way the XBLA portfolio manager sees its future - new original games. But the fact is that we just get remakes and more remakes. Galaga Legions and Bionic Commando.

You make it sound like a bad thing.

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:20 am

adrenalinq wrote:I think that the main problem is the way the XBLA portfolio manager sees its future - new original games. But the fact is that we just get remakes and more remakes. Galaga Legions and Bionic Commando.

When talking about new original games he obviously means stuff like Braid, Castle Crashers or reinterpretations of classics like PacMan CE or Galaga Legions. The last two might be remakes in your book but the truth is they are much more than just old games dressed in new graphics. Sure, they could have come up with a fancy new name for Legions but why should they do this if they can sell more by sticking a familiar name on top of it?
While I don't have any real proof I'm sure that rejecting Cave shooters had also somethig to do with the fact that their mainstream appeal is basically zero. Most people who are not familiar with cave and see gameplay vids of Ketsui for the first time usually think that it's an unplayable mess which is of course not true but this is basically the reaction you'll get from a lot of western customers when you confront them with a danmaku shooter for the very first time.
Sure, they could at least release Ketsui as a kind of experiment and see what happens but in the end having a disc release for the devoted fans is probably the better option. Let's hope it's region free...

adrenalinq · Post by **adrenalinq** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:21 am

You make it sound like a bad thing.

What I mean is that if "faithful" remakes get to XBLA what is wrong with faithful arcade games?

I got Bionic Commando and I enjoy playing it coop with my brother.

As for disk releases of Ketsui and DoDonPachi I can say that it is actually awesome news but I can quote: "Our initial plan was to release LOTS of arcade titles". Two are not LOTS. I believe that we missed Progears, Death Smiles, DonPachi, Galuda2 and god knows how many others. Lets pray that Ketsui release will sell great and MS will reconsider.

Kiken · Post by **Kiken** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:57 pm

adrenalinq wrote:As for disk releases of Ketsui and DoDonPachi I can say that it is actually awesome news but I can quote: "Our initial plan was to release LOTS of arcade titles". Two are not LOTS. I believe that we missed Progears, Death Smiles, DonPachi, Galuda2 and god knows how many others. Lets pray that Ketsui release will sell great and MS will reconsider.

Huh? There are already 2 homeports of this game.

As for the other games, we don't know what 5pb aquired the licensing rights to distribute (beyond Ketsui and DOJ Black Label).

Assuming that Ketsui and DOJ Black Label perform respectfully at retail (for the genre), then I think it's safe to assume that 5pb will release more games. On the other hand, the quality of these ports is still unknown and a point of contention. Ask yourself this, if the ports had been lacklustre or poor, would it have been good to have a whole bunch of them?

gennss · Post by **gennss** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:36 pm

well i download the majority of the demos and have tried and purchased a few xbla games.

Even though I do on ikaruga and triggerheart excelica i have purchased both on the 360 for my own amusement. Considering some of those games are import only and from old dead systems, i dont' see how it would hurt xbla to have those games there.

I think this is a poor business decision on their part.

Super X Gamma · Post by **Super X Gamma** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:49 am

I am, quite frankly, sick of all the XBLA Flash gam... oops, I mean Original games. This tripe is a waste of bandwidth. This shit could get cooked up in an hour and "sell like hotcakes".

How much can it cost MS to build a version of MAME for the xbox and then sell roms? Getting licenses for old games can't be all that expensive, and it isn't like MS doesn't make a lot of money already. it would be a fucking goldmine if the games only sold to 500 users at $5.00 each let alone the prices that they have been charging lately for XBLA Flash games. Damn, I said it again.

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:56 am

Kiken wrote:Ask yourself this, if the ports had been lacklustre or poor, would it have been good to have a whole bunch of them?

Honestly? If they are as "poor" as the Ibara or Mushi ports, yeah, i would like a whole bunch. they are still very enjoyable games.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 10:40 am

Jockel wrote:
Kiken wrote:Ask yourself this, if the ports had been lacklustre or poor, would it have been good to have a whole bunch of them?
Honestly? If they are as "poor" as the Ibara or Mushi ports, yeah, i would like a whole bunch. they are still very enjoyable games.

What Jockel said. Whole the prices for the two mentioned ports are getting a bit crazy now, I snapped up Mushi and Ibara for liek £15 and £30 respectively. I'll have to look into patching them to make them truly barginacious though.

PepsimanVsJoe · Post by **PepsimanVsJoe** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:31 pm

Super X Gamma wrote:I am, quite frankly, sick of all the XBLA Flash gam... oops, I mean Original games. This tripe is a waste of bandwidth. This shit could get cooked up in an hour and "sell like hotcakes".

How much can it cost MS to build a version of MAME for the xbox and then sell roms? Getting licenses for old games can't be all that expensive, and it isn't like MS doesn't make a lot of money already. it would be a fucking goldmine if the games only sold to 500 users at $5.00 each let alone the prices that they have been charging lately for XBLA Flash games. Damn, I said it again.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:16 pm

Super X Gamma wrote:I am, quite frankly, sick of all the XBLA Flash gam... oops, I mean Original games. This tripe is a waste of bandwidth. This shit could get cooked up in an hour and "sell like hotcakes".

How much can it cost MS to build a version of MAME for the xbox and then sell roms? Getting licenses for old games can't be all that expensive, and it isn't like MS doesn't make a lot of money already. it would be a fucking goldmine if the games only sold to 500 users at $5.00 each let alone the prices that they have been charging lately for XBLA Flash games. Damn, I said it again.

or even better, let some good homebrew dev. port MAME to the X360, and let us (the users) to put whatever roms we want!.... thats soemthin i've been waiting for since... forever?... heck!... i wouldnt be buyin most of the stuff that are on live, if there was a possibility of havin a MAME full of roms on the console... but one can only dream.

Necronom · Post by **Necronom** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:04 pm

Kaspal wrote:
Super X Gamma wrote:I am, quite frankly, sick of all the XBLA Flash gam... oops, I mean Original games. This tripe is a waste of bandwidth. This shit could get cooked up in an hour and "sell like hotcakes".

How much can it cost MS to build a version of MAME for the xbox and then sell roms? Getting licenses for old games can't be all that expensive, and it isn't like MS doesn't make a lot of money already. it would be a fucking goldmine if the games only sold to 500 users at $5.00 each let alone the prices that they have been charging lately for XBLA Flash games. Damn, I said it again.
or even better, let some good homebrew dev. port MAME to the X360, and let us (the users) to put whatever roms we want!.... thats soemthin i've been waiting for since... forever?... heck!... i wouldnt be buyin most of the stuff that are on live, if there was a possibility of havin a MAME full of roms on the console... but one can only dream.

Aren't online multiplayer and achievementsthe key factors on Live?
I mean, what you just described is basically a PC with (wireless) gamepad connected to a TV...

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 6:20 pm

adrenalinq wrote:It is great we have developers like Itagaki who shares my opinion.

Oh, so only frustratingly hard games like Ninja Gaiden apply when it comes to quality games having story and gameplay? NG's story is crap. The gameplay would be better if there wasn't massive slowdown and a whole ton of bullshit going on. It's really not a good example. Apart from NG, he had DoA, and his fanservice of. Big deal.

adrenalinq wrote:Now we got this "high critically acclaimed" Braid and it is one of the easiest puzzle games ever made. I will not discuss the corruption and incompetence of modern journalism. Have you played Keys 2 on NES? The game has growing difficulty from “too easy for 5 year old kid” to “spend a whole day to beat next puzzle” - thats what I call a great puzzle game.

Awesome, that sounds like a fine puzzle game. Spending a whole day on a single puzzle. Yeah, there's probably a story and gameplay in there as well.

adrenalinq wrote:You have to be very dumb not to beat Braid in 2 hours what leaves frustration, zero challenge and no replay value. Braid teaches you nothing and does not deserve the score. It is a great game for age from 5 to 8.

Sounds like someone couldn't get the last 2 pieces on The Cloud Bridge. The game isn't difficult but it isn't easy. Also, saying that Braid teaches you nothing really proves that you didn't even bother to play through the game, or read any of the text in it. I haven't finished it myself, but it's still a fun game.

I was going to bother with replying to the rest of your post but it's a chore. I don't want to lose. I don't want to continue. I want to stop at any given time - which is now, and I want a reward for it.

I think my reward for replying to you is the satisfaction of knowing that you're pretty much entirely wrong about Braid, and not everyone is going to share your views. There's no point in hating on a game because it's easy. This reminds me of mindless touhou debates of whether or not it's "disgraceful" to play easy mode. Play it if you want to, it exists for a reason. If games are easy by default, that's the way they're intended. But no, not everyone is going to beat Braid in 2 hours.

Another thing, I think the idea of MS building a MAME-esque clone and selling roms would be a terrible idea. We'd get more upscaled Metal Slug 3s and Fatal Fury Specials which manage to make the game look even worse by having a HQ2X applied to every arcade game. That would be a total mess.

Kaspal · Post by **Kaspal** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:06 pm

Necronom wrote:
Kaspal wrote:
Super X Gamma wrote:I am, quite frankly, sick of all the XBLA Flash gam... oops, I mean Original games. This tripe is a waste of bandwidth. This shit could get cooked up in an hour and "sell like hotcakes".

How much can it cost MS to build a version of MAME for the xbox and then sell roms? Getting licenses for old games can't be all that expensive, and it isn't like MS doesn't make a lot of money already. it would be a fucking goldmine if the games only sold to 500 users at $5.00 each let alone the prices that they have been charging lately for XBLA Flash games. Damn, I said it again.
or even better, let some good homebrew dev. port MAME to the X360, and let us (the users) to put whatever roms we want!.... thats soemthin i've been waiting for since... forever?... heck!... i wouldnt be buyin most of the stuff that are on live, if there was a possibility of havin a MAME full of roms on the console... but one can only dream.
Aren't online multiplayer and achievementsthe key factors on Live?
I mean, what you just described is basically a PC with (wireless) gamepad connected to a TV...

i love live and all... but tellme, wouldnt it be great (if you have a kinda old PC) to have MAME on you brand new (in my case) X360?...

yes, its true that i described in my last post was basically a PC connected to the TV with a (wireless) controller ... but still, woudlnt it be great if we had the posibility of havin such thing on our consoles??

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:48 pm

No. Because it's free on your PC.
And you can connect your PC to your TV, too.

Taylor · Post by **Taylor** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:00 pm

It’s such a massive legal can of worms they would never consider it. Though a friend of mine does have MAME running on his PS3 (via Linux, ofc).

And man, don't hate on Braid. I don’t know what you were expecting but I got exactly what I thought it would be: a fun, relaxing puzzler with twee graphics and fair dollop of pretentiousness (it’s indie, after all).