"Wahhh, this shmup is too short, it's only 1 hr"

[Aru-san]

To IGN "Frothing Demand" people...THERE ARE MORE REDEEMING QUALITIES IN THE SHOOT 'EM UP GENRE THAN JUST CHAINING, AND THERE ARE MORE REDEEMING PIECES OF ART THAN JUST THE STUFF TREASURE PUTS OUT. (stares at the Mona Lisa)

[SockPuppetHyren]

To IGN "Frothing Demand" people...THERE ARE MORE REDEEMING QUALITIES IN THE SHOOT 'EM UP GENRE THAN JUST CHAINING, AND THERE ARE MORE REDEEMING PIECES OF ART THAN JUST THE STUFF TREASURE PUTS OUT. (stares at the Mona Lisa)

Didn't they list DDP as number one in their "Best 10 SHMUPs of all time" list? I doubt they're very Treasure biased.

Also, please excuse my lack of "HARDCORE ELITE SHOOTER FAN KNOWLEDGE", but I never saw the issue with people liking Ikaruga. I can understand people not being to into the game, but this just seems to be a case of "I hate it because it's popular", which is just plain silly to me. Why couldn't it just be that the reviewer had fun with the game they were reviewing? Isn't that the point in the long run? Getting angry over someone, who's not deep in the genre,having fun with a shooting game is kind of silly to me.
Of course, I don't exactly understand why we need yet another "THIS REVIEWER DOES NOT UNDERSTAND OUR PERFECT AND BEAUTIFUL GENRE! RAAAAAGE!" topic, so it might be just me. Honestly, I'd figure most shooter fans would simply stop caring about most major reviewers, as their opinion won't effect your purchase at all.

[Ravid]

To IGN "Frothing Demand" people...THERE ARE MORE REDEEMING QUALITIES IN THE SHOOT 'EM UP GENRE THAN JUST CHAINING, AND THERE ARE MORE REDEEMING PIECES OF ART THAN JUST THE STUFF TREASURE PUTS OUT. (stares at the Mona Lisa)

Didn't they list DDP as number one in their "Best 10 SHMUPs of all time" list? I doubt they're very Treasure biased.

Also, please excuse my lack of "HARDCORE ELITE SHOOTER FAN KNOWLEDGE", but I never saw the issue with people liking Ikaruga. I can understand people not being to into the game, but this just seems to be a case of "I hate it because it's popular", which is just plain silly to me. Why couldn't it just be that the reviewer had fun with the game they were reviewing? Isn't that the point in the long run? Getting angry over someone, who's not deep in the genre,having fun with a shooting game is kind of silly to me.

I don't think that many people here claim to hate Ikaruga, it's just a little annoying that it gets massive recognition while equally meritorious shooters get slated/ignored.

...their opinion won't effect your purchase at all.

*affect

[SAM]

A game is "long or short" is a comment belongs to the console era. While Shmups is an Acrade era genre.

"Long or Short" simply don't apply to Shmups.

It just like "Tate or Yoko" simply don't apply to most other genre.
(With the Acrade port of the 1st Contra as an exception. Any of you playing in it in Tate mode?)

[gs68]

As for credit-feeding, I can maybe understand if the player just wants to see the whole game, to have fun and not care for score.

But for the love of God, don't call a game beaten until you've 1CC'd it. If your definition of "beaten" is just going to the end, what point is there in fighting your way to the end, when you can just come into the arcade with shitloads of money or spam the start button?

[Ed Oscuro]

"Wahhh, this thread is too short, it's only 3 pgs"

[Aru-san]

As for credit-feeding, I can maybe understand if the player just wants to see the whole game, to have fun and not care for score.

But for the love of God, don't call a game beaten until you've 1CC'd it. If your definition of "beaten" is just going to the end, what point is there in fighting your way to the end, when you can just come into the arcade with shitloads of money or spam the start button?

Here are my dramatizations of the mainstream review site and mainstream/shmupper perspectives.

Mainstream in the scenario of unlimited continues.

Game: Continue?
Player: I have unlimited continues. Who's stoppin' meh? (continues)
(3 levels later)
Game: Continue?
Player: Keep 'em comin'. Continues a-plenty. (continues)
(3 levels and last boss later)
Game: Thank you for playing.
Player: That's it? WTF? This game is too short!
(3 weeks later, review is posted bitching about how short the game was, few people buy the game, fans bitch about it, and the reviewer keeps his job.)

Shmupper in the same scenario.

Game: Continue?
Player: NO.
Game: Game over.
Player: No worries. I'll play it again from the beginning!
(2 levels later)
Game: Continue?
Player: You know the deal. =P (mashes the fire button)
Game: Game over.
Player: Donmai!
(about 5-20 weeks later)
Boss: You finish the review yet?
Game: Thank you for playing.
Player: This...was the best experience I have ever had....
Boss: A-HA-HEM.
Player (slowly turns to boss): Yes?
Boss: You're 17 weeks overdue.
Player: I'm so sorry! I was just--
Boss: NO BUTS! You're fired.
(Reviewer loses his job and the review is not submitted on the mainstream site.)

Mainstream in the scenario of no continues period.

Player: This game sure is challenging!
(Player dies)
Game: Game over.
Player: What...no continues? THAT'S STUPID!
(2 weeks later, review is written bitching about how there are no continues, few people buy the game, fans bitch about it, and the reviewer keeps his job.)

Shmupper in the same scenario

Player: Must...survive!
(Player dies)
Game: Game over!
Player: DAMMIT! And I wasn't able to continue, too. Back to start I go.
(4-6 weeks later)
Game: Thank you for playing.
Player: I finally beat the game. Man, no continues sure motivates you a lot.
Boss: Then why can't you motivate yourself to write the review I asked for 3 weeks ago?
Player (surprised, turns sharply to boss): WHAAAH!?
Boss: WHERE'S THE REVIEW?
Player: Well, I was trying to beat the game and it had no continues, so it took a while!
Boss: Bitch, I don't pay you to slack off, I pay you to WRITE REVIEWS. I don't tolerate slackers. YOU'RE FIRED.
(Reviewer loses his job and the review is not submitted on the mainstream site.)

Yeah, these may be really horrible dramatizations.

[Ed Oscuro]

Here is my dramatization of Aru-san making a post:

Aru-san: This must be epic!

And that's all I wrote.

[Aru-san]

Here is my dramatization of Aru-san making a post:

Aru-san: This must be epic!

And that's all I wrote.

Yep. I'm a horrible poster. Though I do still wonder what the scenario would be if sites like IGN and Gamespot hired people familiar with the genre to review the game? Maybe we'd get less complaints about "no continues" and "game is too short"? I'm not really sure.

[Ed Oscuro]

Yep. I'm a horrible poster.

Where did I say that? :(

[Aru-san]

Yep. I'm a horrible poster.

Where did I say that?

Nevermind. My original post was intended to contribute to the conversation, but it seems it has been interpreted as something else.

[SockPuppetHyren]

I don't think that many people here claim to hate Ikaruga, it's just a little annoying that it gets massive recognition while equally meritorious shooters get slated/ignored.

I think part of the issue is many shmups aren't spoken of outside of shmup-based communities like this one. Hell, before I came hear, the only shmups I heard a lot about were Ikaruga, Touhou, and on rare occasions R-Type. Most shooter fans seem to be satisfied in keeping their genre fanbase small, which naturally has the adverse effect of people, namely game reviewers, not knowing very much about the inner workings and offerings of said genre. Thus, you get reviews saying games are too short, too hard, etc. etc.
Then, there's the fact that many of the games people here put above Ikaruga, are either difficult to find, has an inflated price tag, or are import only. Since Ikaruga actually had a US release, many more people had a better chance of playing it, thus allowing them to gush about it to as many people they could. Most CAVE games, on the other hand, were either never released stateside, or never even ported at all. Though people who are more dedicated to the genre would be able to get a copy of CAVE games rather easily, most people would have never even heard of it, as CAVE fans tend to gush about their favorite games to people who are already know about CAVE. Of course, this isn't even including things like PCB prices and other things that would put most people off.

All I'm saying is that it's difficult for people to give credit to game people here think are better than Ikaruga when they never even heard of them. I would go onto the issue of general taste (Tho possibility that, yes, a reviewer had more fun with one shmup than they do another), but I figure most posters here have already taken that into account.

[worstplayer]

One thing those people ignore is that other games aren't much longer if you exclude time spent backtracking, waiting, fetch-quests, cutscenes and other bullshit that has nothing to do with gameplay.

[bkk]

I'd like to see a shmup with fetch-quests and backtracking.

[Jockel]

I'd like to see a shmup with backtracking.

Well, you fly a few seconds backwards in Ketsui, IIRC ^_~

[Mischief Maker]

Ironically, JRPGs were once hardcore as well. Try playing Phantasy Star 2 in the post-FF7 age. Many people complain about the hours spent grinding before getting lost in the maze-like dungeons and having to DL a map from gamefaqs to find their way through. No one seemed to realize that the proper way to play the game was to dive straight into the dungeons and the time spent exploring and backtracking took care of the leveling and money. There was a reason the teleport spells were some of the very first spells the main character got in that game.

But square came along and pushed the genre down the slippery-slope to stupid town. Then they added insult to injury by "dumbing-down" Final Fantasy 2 before shipping it to the states. I was shocked when I learned that. Even as a kid playing it, I remarked at how easy the game was, how the dungeons were basically a straight path to the boss with tiny side paths that dead-ended in a treasure chest. Did they think American players would sprain something while navigating the menus or something?

And the hell of it is, while it had 1/10th as many "plot moments" as FF2, Phantasy Star 2 had a much better setting and plot with an ending that actually was surprising.

It's not the other genres crowding out and dumbing down the shmups (remember the controversy when Aliens vs. Predator 1 didn't include in-level saves?) it's the shift in design philosophy from games that test the player's skill to games that reward the player's patience.

[moonblood]

Yes, yes, and god yes I love Phantasy star II. Great post

[Observer]

It's not the other genres crowding out and dumbing down the shmups (remember the controversy when Aliens vs. Predator 1 didn't include in-level saves?) it's the shift in design philosophy from games that test the player's skill to games that reward the player's patience.

You rock. I thought nobody was going to ever mention AvP1 anywhere anymore... One of the most shit-pant experiences next to SH1. Today I actually think the game was great for not letting you save in-level. It made you watch out, jump out of your seat because enemies would pop up from nowhere or came running at you so fast... Plus they could own you in three hits or worse. Great game.

This could also apply to RTSes like Ground Control where you couldn't save between levels and people complained a lot about that but, in turn, it made you plan ahead and think strategically before placing your 4 artillery pieces in front of the enemy. 'Game is too hard.'

[MR_Soren]

I think the worst I've seen, by far, is IGN's reviews for the 360 versions of Triggerheart Exelica and Ikaruga. Both are written by the same guy, yet he lauds Ikaruga for the exact same reasons he blasted Exelica:


I read those reviews and noticed the same thing. OXM did that as well. It's like they didn't really understand the games, but gave Ikaruga a good score because other people seemed excited about it.

Reviewer playing THE: "Der! This is pointless. 6!"

Reviewer playing Ikaruga: "The same as that other game! This one is being hyped, so I'll play it safe. 9! Now I've earned respect among the shmup addicts!"

Didn't they list DDP as number one in their "Best 10 SHMUPs of all time" list?

Nope. It was Einhander, but DDP was in the top 3.

[Shatterhand]

I demand more story elements in shmups and rpg leveling and shops and save points with 150 stages. Get rid of score, that's not needed just put in exp. points.

Also make sure there are lots of checkponts in the stages, and an energy bar and constant health pick-ups.

Honestly, if someone make a game like that, with OMG FANTASTIC 3D GFX, the press would drool all over it. Give it an epic story of some sort... you don't even need to think about level design that much, just have a few kind of enemies and throw them over and over, just making they tougher when you advance in the game. Make them shoot simple bullet patterns that always leave enough space, and just throw enemies randomly.

X2?

X2 got some good reviews from what I read. And it didn't even had an epic story and cut-scenes. As much as Project-X also had excellent reviews and got all the hype, even though Apidya was released on the same month and was EONS better.

[doctorx0079]

I demand more story elements in shmups and rpg leveling and shops and save points with 150 stages. Get rid of score, that's not needed just put in exp. points.

Now hold on a second. I already played Sigma Star Saga and it kind of sucked.

[Jockel]

T-T-T-T...
THREAD NECROMANCY

[louisg]

Making a game on the short side is generally a good idea. It means there can't be much filler, and the chances of there being a bland stage which makes you not want to play the game is lower.

That one hour of a shmup contains more gameplay and action than you'll see in 40 hours of a different genre, too =)

[kozo]

I know how to fix this problem, and it lies with the devs, not the reviewers.

Remove continues from the game, like the Espgaluda Arrange mode. Not even an option to turn them on. No continues. Ever.

Yes, it would be a slap to the face for people who like to breeze through the first time to get an idea of the game before seriously playing it, but it would be an ever harder slap to the face for Frothing Demand™.

[BIL]

I know how to fix this problem, and it lies with the devs, not the reviewers.

Remove continues from the game, like the Espgaluda Arrange mode. Not even an option to turn them on. No continues. Ever.

"Wahhh, this shmup is too hard, it's taking 10 hr"

Time-release credits ala Ikaruga / Gradius V seems to be the happy medium, but something tells me we'd hear "teh game is impossible at first, but can be beaten in half an hour if you're patient enuff."

[StoofooEsq]

Any reviewer complaining about a Shmup being too long needs to sit down and play some Compile titles. Let's see what they have to say about gameplay length after going through one round of, say, Zanac.

[Danbo]

Manic shmups are a niche and no matter what happens the best you're going to get from a reviewer is "this game is probably too hard for most and is for Fans Of The Genre Only"

though if i was going for a shot at mass-market appeal, i would add some sort of stupid RPG mode alongside regular mode with no continues, but scoring well gets you lots of experience points / money which you can spend on increased firepower/speed, reduced hitbox size, more bombs or something completely different for the next time round. that seems to be the way deathmatch games go these days, and it seems to be a pretty popular idea...

[evil_ash_xero]

If the resurrection of this thread has anything to do with IGN's review of Raiden IV...remember, they did give Castle Shikigami a 7.9.

[cj iwakura]

I'd like to see a shmup with fetch-quests and backtracking.

It's called Sigma Star Saga.

[wiNteR]

Two different reviews for the same game.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/102/1024759p1.html
http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3175925&p=4