"Wahhh, this shmup is too short, it's only 1 hr"

[gabe]

A couple thoughts:

1) "Retro" when attached to a modern video game is basically code for "skill based game."

2) Personally... I really enjoy the shitty stories in shmups on the rare instances that I get to play an English translation. Castle of Shikigami comes to mind.

I don't see why "story" has to be synonymous with "bad." If you're truly of that opinion, you're just as closed minded as the mainstream game reviewers handing out shit reviews for arcade games because they are "too short."

[Observer]

A couple thoughts:

1) "Retro" when attached to a modern video game is basically code for "skill based game."

2) Personally... I really enjoy the shitty stories in shmups on the rare instances that I get to play an English translation. Castle of Shikigami comes to mind.

I don't see why "story" has to be synonymous with "bad." If you're truly of that opinion, you're just as closed minded as the mainstream game reviewers handing out shit reviews for arcade games because they are "too short."

I didn't phrase the sentences properly.

I like the mystical aura of Treasure games (including Gradius V), examining and noticing most enemies in Ikaruga are named after birds, the nice detail of the Ubusunagami Oukinoukai (how it 'resets' the planet in RSG, the stage-flashback that even brings you to a wireframe fight-memory with the Stone-Like, how they turned it almost into a tool in Ikaruga where the world still feels like is dying, waning), noticing that despite Gigawing's silly dialogue the Mayan-tones/architecture behind it's actually interesting or the whole Esp.Ra.De storyline (as stated before some weird Alice in Wonderland+Miyazaki meets mechs and more with MIB-like agents and psy powers)

Or TFV with some bosses named after rock bands (heh, Iron Maiden) and a quick summary of their background story.

The most recent game I played, Diadra Empty, has the storyline told ala Ikaruga with short phrases at the beginning of each chapter and it's actually pretty interesting with the ending being... well, excellent.

Oh, let's not forget of DDP: Who doesn't appreciate that crazy general?

Einhänder. "There was a time...", and the whole quest to disable the Earth's defences in a suicide mission to let the lunarians conquer it. Might felt a bit cliché but I still thought it was nice.

Yeah, I do like the stories behind. One that stroke me the most is R-Type... The whole thing has a huge tragic feeling. R-Type Delta with R13 being one particular shocking moment or how you leave your base and eventually you go back to find it completely infected by the Bydo... or how the Bydo were indeed human bio-weapons, sealing the treat that humans engineered their own demise.

edited for massive typo corrections.

[lgb]

Oh, let's not forget of DDP: Who doesn't appreciate that crazy general?

"You've finally arrived. You're so good, it's sickening. However, I'm more pleased it's going the way I wanted. My "Future Enhancement Project" is finally complete thanks to your survival.

You will finally die here. And goodbye."

[Shatterhand]

Lot's of stuff that, sadly, is all too true.

I don't think we'll ever see such a game though.

It would suck anyway.

[lgb]

"This isn't a shooter, it's too long! Make it shorter!"

[Necronopticous]

The best part about that Gradius V review is that the reviewer ends the article by flat out saying that he's just too hardcore of a "shooter junkie" for a game like Gradius V to impress him, or keep him occupied. Classic.

Casual shooter pansies like us can BS with games like Gradius V, but for Michael "The Shooter God" Fucking Mullis, this shit just isn't going to cut it.

[Taylor]

It’s simply because the reviewers don’t play these games so don’t know what they’re looking for, and because shmups are so scarce they have no frame of reference.

Although you can't really forgive the OP article for that, as the reviewer continually touts that he’s a hardcore fan of the genre! Yet still falls at every hurdle reviewing it, and then switches lanes to crash into a few more. His suggestions to fix the game made me have 5 goes at writing a paragraph that isn’t grossly offensive about them and give up.

[Rob]

One thing I think it was missing from the other thread or I overlooked it is the, by now stupid and annyoing: RETRO shit.

Gradius V is so retro. Retro my balls la remil reconferencia de la lora... DDP Daiffukatsu is retro right? Did it come out in 1985? Oh, it has 2008. Can't be true, arcade games don't exist anymore, it's all DDR.

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/retro/

[Kiken]

I demand more story elements in shmups and rpg leveling and shops and save points with 150 stages. Get rid of score, that's not needed just put in exp. points.

Also make sure there are lots of checkponts in the stages, and an energy bar and constant health pick-ups.

Honestly, if someone make a game like that, with OMG FANTASTIC 3D GFX, the press would drool all over it. Give it an epic story of some sort... you don't even need to think about level design that much, just have a few kind of enemies and throw them over and over, just making they tougher when you advance in the game. Make them shoot simple bullet patterns that always leave enough space, and just throw enemies randomly.

X2?

[Observer]

One thing I think it was missing from the other thread or I overlooked it is the, by now stupid and annyoing: RETRO shit.

Gradius V is so retro. Retro my balls la remil reconferencia de la lora... DDP Daiffukatsu is retro right? Did it come out in 1985? Oh, it has 2008. Can't be true, arcade games don't exist anymore, it's all DDR.

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/retro/

Thanks for pointing that out! I agree wholeheartedly with that article. Not much of an enemy of the word 'gameplay' though (I just finished reading his article about that). I mean, movies have 'screenplay', right? xP

My dislike towards the 'retro' thing, while not as a extreme as what I read from him, comes from the fact that 'retro' seems to imply the Space Invaders little alien ship sprite (Atari, Nes-era graphics) and dinosauric boredom/unfair challenge. Or, on the other hand, 'cool' for the sake of 'being cool' (like those gaming shows on TV, they will ALWAYS put some sprite or pixellated icon flashing fast for their flashy openings) as if the game doesn't' have any other merits. Or something like that, not making much sense. Sorry.

Btw, the DDP Daiffukkatsu (and good ol' DDP) issue I referenced came up when someone (same fool that is in Touhou for the lolis) complained that the game was about ships and why something like that would be released for arcades if it looks so old fashioned... Blood boiling... ARGH!

Funny detail? Back in 1994/1995, some shooters were already considered 'retro'. Because, you know, you just shoot in them.

Sometimes the animosity against the poor shootan gaems is frightening. Makes me want to be the crazy DDP general sending super pilots at them.

A parallelism could be made with the graphical adventures (they are also 'old' and 'retro', now you have to be all the time with a gun in your hands... makes me want to go play some Sam & Max), shooters on rails or the pre-Herospawning RTS that relied on armies of different units instead a pocket of 20 (what? we could once control 25.000 soldiers? I miss Shogun: Total War...)

To conclude because my head hurts: let's focus on the stg tournament. Forgot to register!

[Davey]

I have an idea, if someone would listen to me. Make a 2D shooter with say 50-60 levels. Then make them come up in a random order. Gradius VI anyone?

Every so often somebody starts a thread about how cool it would be if shmups were mainstream again. Going forward, I propose that any such thread should be replied to with that quote and locked.

IMHO, of course.

[gameoverDude]

I think Gradius V is too long considering you can loop it. Eighty minutes is milking it, and I doubt I'd feel like doing a 2nd loop after clearing it once. About 30 minutes is enough for one time around.

Thunder Force IV being around 40-50 minutes is OK- since when you get the final boss, you're really done and ready to cash out your remaining credits and lives after the staff roll.

[ForceDevice]

I have an idea, if someone would listen to me. Make a 2D shooter with say 50-60 levels. Then make them come up in a random order. Gradius VI anyone?

Dumbest. Thing. I. Have. Ever. Read.

[A_Civilian]

Could be worse.

The general reviewer dies in 20-30 seconds (2 minutes and at the first boss if they're lucky), never touches it again, and says that's why it's too short.

If they wanted 50-60 levels, play Galaga. Jeez.

[SockPuppetHyren]

I have an idea, if someone would listen to me. Make a 2D shooter with say 50-60 levels. Then make them come up in a random order. Gradius VI anyone?

Dumbest. Thing. I. Have. Ever. Read.

Indeed. This reviewer is apparently unambitious.

It should have 100 levels, with 250 possible achievements/missions included. Also, there should be a 50 minute cut scene every ten levels, detailing the emotional distress of the pilot, and his wish to be with his lover again. Now THAT would be an ideal 2d shooter!

[Observer]

Dumbest. Thing. I. Have. Ever. Read.

Indeed. This reviewer is apparently unambitious.

It should have 100 levels, with 250 possible achievements/missions included. Also, there should be a 50 minute cut scene every ten levels, detailing the emotional distress of the pilot, and his wish to be with his lover again. Now THAT would be an ideal 3D 4000x4000 TEXTURES AND 10 MILLION POLY MODELS+TURBOGRAFX BLOOMED AND BROWNED NEXT-GEN ACTION GAME!

Fixed.


The moment save features made the other genres last longer, that's when stgs 'died' for sure for the mainstream. Previously, you always had to sit and play through a game or use passwords if it was too long. As soon as saving become the common denominator, the poor things 'died' because you just couldn't save between levels and they were too short.

Stuff like FPSes and their massive use of quicksave/quickload probably accelerated the process. Made a mistake and died? No prob, load and try again. And again. And again. I recall doing this for Quake 2...

In a shooter: make a mistake in the middle of stage 6 and you fucked up your entire chain, lost your maximum bomb for scoring and probably screwed up the final score and end-game bonuses.

Of course, not just FPSes are responsible of this. Many, many other reasons caused it. But thought I would point out that one in particular (saving the game) because a Panzer Dragoon review for the Saturn I read complained about this 'problem': "you can't save between levels you so are forced to play through it and it's too hard!".

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Different games should be judged by different criteria. Any shmup longer than 45 minutes to beat is too long and that's something most reviewers don't understand. The only acceptable way for a shmup to pass that threshold is with branching paths a la Darius.

[gs68]

While we're on the subject of shmup ignorance...

Number seven comes from a game called Otomedius, which so far has only been released in Japan but is coming soon to the States. In it, players power up busty on-screen maidens by rubbing their breasts. Yes, rubbing their breasts.

[CStarFlare]

Hey, positive press coverage is positive press coverage.

[Stormwatch]

He wants a super-epic RPG-ish shmup that can be played for countless hours?

Give him Armada for the Dreamcast.

It SUCKS.

[gennss]

lolArmada

I'm perfectly happy being niche thank you.

[evil_ash_xero]

Not to sound elitist, but complaining that any shmup is 'too short' is just a dead give-away that you're not playing it properly. I highly doubt any journos single-credited Gradius V in time for their review, and there's nothing wrong with reviewing something you haven't thoroughly rinsed as long as you take this into account (without blaming the game for it), but floating your way to the end on each respawn's brief moment of invincibility and then calling the game 'short' takes the piss.

Hell, Contra III on the SNES (as a tenuously-related example) takes about 20 minutes to beat, even on Hard mode, but it usually takes a beginner a good week or so to actually see it through to the end.

Longevity clearly isn't being considered in terms of replay value here, either. A 20 minute game that you play through on an almost weekly basis for 15 years clearly has more longevity than a one-shot adventure you can't really be arsed with once you've finished the main quest.

Reviewers not "getting it" shouldn't come as any kind of surprise, though.

I wouldn't consider myself an elitist either, but there are a few games that I consider too short, and that the length actually hurts the game a bit. Of course, I have had a thread on it, without much resolove. Just "Psyvariar is supposed to be that short! You don't get it!". Hey, maybe I don't!

But Gradius V too short? I LOOOOVE that game, but good lord, it's as epic as shmups get. If it was any longer, it would actully hurt the game.

But yeah, I have read that "too short" remark for everything from Gradius V to Gunstar Superheroes to Contra 4. They were all the proper length. Now, Astro Boy was a bit short. Even made you play over and over to make it look longer. Boo! Anyways....

s/m

[Taylor]

Joint Strike didn’t let people credit feed, and reviewers complained they couldn't continue instead.

[Daedalus]

I really hate most reviewers who aren't shooter fans. All of their complaints with the game are usually issues with genre staples (Like bitching that a horror movie was too scary). But I think the worst I've seen, by far, is IGN's reviews for the 360 versions of Triggerheart Exelica and Ikaruga. Both are written by the same guy, yet he lauds Ikaruga for the exact same reasons he blasted Exelica:

Triggerheart doesn't have a whole lot going for it. Like most arcade shooters, the experience is brief. The challenge is there for those who would like to memorize attack patterns and master the five levels, but there isn't anything that feels exciting.

There are just five stages in Ikaruga, but getting through them all takes some serious skill. It's an old-school shooter, so it demands perfection and memorization to go from start to finish. The enemy patterns are fantastic and complex with many that look impossible to beat at first glance. It's tough and you'll die a lot when you first start. But you'll keep playing, desperate for improvement as the evening turns into night and you find yourself missing sleep.

[Aru-san]

Joint Strike didn稚 let people credit feed, and reviewers complained they couldn't continue instead.

Proof that American gamers really have an extremely horrid perspective on proper arcade culture. =P

[lgb]

It might be because everyone seems to love Ikaruga.

[moonblood]

No no you're supposed to love Ikaruga, God help you if you don't

[moozooh]

Both are written by the same guy, yet he lauds Ikaruga for the exact same reasons he blasted Exelica

Wow, that's some delightful hypocrisy.

[gennss]

Ahh what little japanese i know fits here... Baka. Hypocrisy among reviewers isn't anything new though.

Re games being too short. I learned how to appreciate shooters with gunbird 2. I played it through using continues till the very end. And after burning through it and realizing continues ate my score I discovered the high score chart. Been trying to get decent at shooters ever since.

[orange]

I really hate most reviewers who aren't shooter fans. All of their complaints with the game are usually issues with genre staples (Like bitching that a horror movie was too scary). But I think the worst I've seen, by far, is IGN's reviews for the 360 versions of Triggerheart Exelica and Ikaruga. Both are written by the same guy, yet he lauds Ikaruga for the exact same reasons he blasted Exelica:

Triggerheart doesn't have a whole lot going for it. Like most arcade shooters, the experience is brief. The challenge is there for those who would like to memorize attack patterns and master the five levels, but there isn't anything that feels exciting.

There are just five stages in Ikaruga, but getting through them all takes some serious skill. It's an old-school shooter, so it demands perfection and memorization to go from start to finish. The enemy patterns are fantastic and complex with many that look impossible to beat at first glance. It's tough and you'll die a lot when you first start. But you'll keep playing, desperate for improvement as the evening turns into night and you find yourself missing sleep.

durrr hurrr frothing demand increasing oh my god everyone loves this game it must be great great presentation chaining arcade style gameplay hurrrr the japanese love it import rarity dreamcast skills chaining hurrrrr