PC Gaming: Copy protection is getting ridicilous

[Elixir]

Isn't Bioshock on Steam? Can't you just purchase it from there and install it as many times as you like? I'm pretty certain I've seen some stuff on there trying to sell the game to me a few times.

A year or so ago I remember people were cracking Steam clients so you could download games for free. Even if it's a better way to avoid piracy, people are always going to find a way of tinkering with it. I haven't bought a PC game since the late 90's though, so I don't know what the protections and stuff are like.

I just don't play PC games as much as I used to, so it makes the process of worrying about this stuff a lot less easier. Asking a PC gamer what's come out in the past 6 months worth grabbing is about as "girllllll don't you go there" as asking a Wii owner the same thing.

The only option right now is to buy your stuff on Steam.

[Ed Oscuro]

When you pirate a game, the publishers get to say "SEE? WE KNEW WE COULDN'T TRUST YOU!" and it legitimizes the industry's reliance on copy protection.

The only way they could find out is if they went looking on torrents (which is of course really easy to do).

I haven't bought a PC game since the late 90's though, so I don't know what the protections and stuff are like.

I just don't play PC games as much as I used to,

SPOT THE PIE-RAT

[Elixir]

SPOT THE PIE-RAT

Don't take things that I've said out of context. I only play a couple of PC games and they're off Steam.

[Daedalus]

When you pirate a game, the publishers get to say "SEE? WE KNEW WE COULDN'T TRUST YOU!" and it legitimizes the industry's reliance on copy protection. The "Treat me like a criminal and I'll be a criminal" mentality does not work. It only makes the publishers more reliant on copy protection, and the piracy numbers can help push other publishers to use copy protection where they may not have previously.

Not true.

There's no such thing as "piracy numbers". It works as such:

When sales are down, publishers claim "Piracy is cutting into our revenue."
When sales are up, publishers claim, "New copy-protection measures are effective."



I would like to mention that the fear of piracy has existed as long as there have been copyright laws. Remember when cassette players and VCRs were introduced? The respective industry groups could not cease bitching and moaning about how "this new era of piracy will spell the end of our industry". And several decades later, they're belting out the same old song against every new "threat" that emerges at the same time as they claw in piles of cash. They haven't gone bankrupt yet...

[The Coop]

Won't these various anti-piracy measures be circumvented not long after a game comes out? You know, like the "fixed" executables that make it so a game no longer needs the CD in the drive, or things that remove or kill programs like Star Force. I can't help but think that all these upcoming games will quickly have homemade files that replace the stuff doing the security checks, and/or an installer that will do the same (kind of like what was done with Pool of Radiance: Ruins and Myth Drannor).

As such, why not just wait for a while until the hackers do their thing, buy the game, and use the "fixed" files?

[Neon]

companies should make everything free

[FatCobra]

As such, why not just wait for a while until the hackers do their thing, buy the game, and use the "fixed" files?

Ah yes, the "Buy N Crack" method.

Supposedly, both parties benefit from this. The publishers get their money, and the user now has a hassle-free game. But ponder this, the publishers sees this as their copy protection working, and will continue to enforce it. And cracking means you have to visit some scuzzy pirate website anyway. Why not just skip the "buy" step and just torrent the game if you're going to crack it? Well, for the games that have the draconian protection. Torrenting a supposedly "uncrackable" game that is cracked anyway is a big middle finger to the publishers, imho. When I buy a game, I except it to work out of the box. Requiring the disc is a minor inconvenience for me unless I have a burst of gaming ADD and can't focus on one game at a time.

Like I said before, I have no sympathy for those who those to lock down products that I pay for to the point where it makes the game not work. Plus, I'm the one in control of the computer, not the makers of some crap game with overzealous copy protection. It's a matter of rights, really. They're slowly taking them away from us.

Honestly, do you guys like getting locked out of your game that you paid for, having your os invaded by the equalivant of malware, or destroying your hardware?

Sure, pirating the game will fix most of the DRM issues, especially if it's a single-player game like Mass Effect. But what about multi player games like Spore? Okay, it's not multiplayer in a sense, but it downloads other people's content? Everyone knows that a pirate copy cannot play online because it's using a stolen key that is either used by someone else, blacklisted, or invalid. So pirated copies of Spore are stuck with the content that comes with the game. Oh well, sandbox games don't really hold my attention for very long. I prefer my games with a linear objective in mind (yet another reason to love shmups!).

I made the foolish mistake of buying the Creature Creator. As fun as it is, it's a demo of a DRM-ridden game, so it's gotta go and any DRM with it.

[kengou]

I just don't play PC games as much as I used to, so it makes the process of worrying about this stuff a lot less easier. Asking a PC gamer what's come out in the past 6 months worth grabbing is about as "girllllll don't you go there" as asking a Wii owner the same thing.

In the last 6 months, I've bought Assassin's Creed and Mass Effect, two pretty big releases. And besides, the past 6 months has been pretty light on every platform - GTA IV and MGS4 are the only big releases I can recall from the past 6 months of console releases.

Besides, the upcoming PC releases for the next year or two have me much more excited than anything on a console. Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, Dawn of War 2, Left 4 Dead, Spore, Fallout 3, Empire: Total War and Half Life 2: Episode 3 are going to be huge releases and really successful, guaranteed. And any that are multi-platform will have the definitive version for the PC as well.

I never understand the argument that PC gaming is in a decline. It's simply not true.

[Elixir]

I just don't play PC games as much as I used to, so it makes the process of worrying about this stuff a lot less easier. Asking a PC gamer what's come out in the past 6 months worth grabbing is about as "girllllll don't you go there" as asking a Wii owner the same thing.

In the last 6 months, I've bought Assassin's Creed and Mass Effect, two pretty big releases. And besides, the past 6 months has been pretty light on every platform - GTA IV and MGS4 are the only big releases I can recall from the past 6 months of console releases.

Besides, the upcoming PC releases for the next year or two have me much more excited than anything on a console. Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, Dawn of War 2, Left 4 Dead, Spore, Fallout 3, Empire: Total War and Half Life 2: Episode 3 are going to be huge releases and really successful, guaranteed. And any that are multi-platform will have the definitive version for the PC as well.

I never understand the argument that PC gaming is in a decline. It's simply not true.

But Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed are console games. Oh OK they're on the PC, that's nice, but they were originally intended and designed for consoles. There's been a bunch of console releases in the past 6 months but I simply don't feel like listing them. The "oh, I'm looking forward to these games..." way of thinking is PS3 logic. With the way the consoles are these days, most PC games will be released on them too. Last generation, they couldn't really keep up.

[The Coop]

I'm only addressing your arguments, FatCobra. Not you on a personal level. Just thought I'd mention that up front

As such, why not just wait for a while until the hackers do their thing, buy the game, and use the "fixed" files?

Ah yes, the "Buy N Crack" method.

Supposedly, both parties benefit from this. The publishers get their money, and the user now has a hassle-free game. But ponder this, the publishers sees this as their copy protection working, and will continue to enforce it. And cracking means you have to visit some scuzzy pirate website anyway. Why not just skip the "buy" step and just torrent the game if you're going to crack it? Well, for the games that have the draconian protection. Torrenting a supposedly "uncrackable" game that is cracked anyway is a big middle finger to the publishers, imho. When I buy a game, I except it to work out of the box. Requiring the disc is a minor inconvenience for me unless I have a burst of gaming ADD and can't focus on one game at a time.

You say you're giving a middle finger to the publishers, but you're also giving one to the people who worked hard on that game, hoping it will make them some money. I also don't see how a publisher will view their protection as working, when it's hacked within a matter of weeks (if that long). If your above logic held true, then they wouldn't keep coming up with different ways to confound hackers. We'd still be using passwords taken from instruction manuals, or paper wheels with symbols on them... like in the DOS days.

You say, why not skip the buy step? I reply, because you didn't earn a free copy due to their copy protection choice.

Like I said before, I have no sympathy for those who those to lock down products that I pay for to the point where it makes the game not work. Plus, I'm the one in control of the computer, not the makers of some crap game with overzealous copy protection. It's a matter of rights, really. They're slowly taking them away from us.

You're right. You are in control of your computer. You have the right and ability to install or not install as you see fit, in order to protect your PC. But, they also have the right to try and protect their IPs (and income)... just like any of us would want to if we made a software product that we intended to sell. Unfortunately, this leads to an argument that loops forever. You're stepping on their rights, because you feel they're stepping on yours. They're stepping on your rights, because they feel the public has been stepping on theirs. It goes around and around like two dogs trying to sniff each other at the same time.

The thing to remember, is that when you buy software, you're buying a license to use their product, and you have to agree to various terms to use it. If you don't like those terms, then you can either chose not buy their new product at all, or wait and see if the license changes (or buy it and hack it, but that's probably still breaking a few rules too ). However, you're not entitled to just take their product and tell them to suck a dick. When you do, you're not exercising or protecting any of your rights, you're just negating theirs.




Now, keep in mind, I'm only talking about new games here. Older games not sold for profit anymore by their makers is a whole different discussion on several fronts. I'm also not belittling you for choosing to torrent something like Spore or what have you. That's a bridge for you to cross when you get to it. And while I do appreciate your taking the time to explain things from your point of view, I personally just don't see how your train of thought works out for anyone but yourself. It seems like a lot of toes are being stepped on so you can have your way.

[FatCobra]

I'm only addressing your arguments, FatCobra. Not you on a personal level. Just thought I'd mention that up front

It seems like a lot of toes are being stepped on so you can have your way.

True, not everyone thinks the same way as I do. The world would be a boring place if that was so.

I'm just in an uproar about the publishers taking the copy protection to far. I understand they want to protect their IP. After all, if I made a kickass game and I wanted to sell it, I wouldn't like pirates downloading it, but I'm not going to throw a shitfit and lock it down with intrusive software that fucks up people's machines or turns disks into coasters because they installed it too many times. In fact, I wouldn't mind the pirate as they are spreading the game out to more people, and if they feel guilty enough, they'll give me money for it. If not, oh well.

Actually, come to think of it, I were to copy protect this game, I'd do it the old-fashioned way. Have them look something up in the manual. Hey, it encourages them to read it, right?

Limited installs just goes against the whole pc gaming philosophy. As I said in the original post, computers get upgraded or reformatted all the time. Limited installs pretty much locks a person into that particular configuration for fear out being locked out of the game. If you install the game at the wrong time, you could be stuck with slow hardware that makes it run like crap and looks like pig vomit, and/or with a gunked up OS. Everyone knows Windows needs a good wipe every now and than.

I know I can just buy another game if I don't like the copy protection. But Spore is one of the most highly anticipated PC games to come in a while and I know most of you at least have a mild interest in it. I'm interested in the game just because of the technology behind it. (Procedural generation is some cool shit).

You know what, I called it. I predicted EA would slap Bioshock's DRM on spore and I was right!! Deep down, I knew they would fuck it up somehow, because they're EA of course.

I'm still slightly interested in the game despite the drm, but there's no way this craptop of mine will run it good and since I'm grinding up the money to build myself a custom system, I'm going to wait it out and see how the DRM affects people. If it's the same mess that happened during Bioshock's launch, then I'll be glad I waited. If they slap this bullshit on all future games, I want to make sure my hardware is up to snuff.

Obviously they don't care if we are going to play these games in five years from now. After all, they want us to buy their new shit, right?

Actually, I might have figured out the real reasons they are doing this: A) To kill off the secondhand market, used games sales means no money in their pockets, and B) To make more money through people rebuying the game or calling their tech support line. It's greed, not piracy.

[The Coop]

Reeding? Wut r dis reeding?


But yeah, I understand your concerns over hardware damage and whatnot. If a company does that, then they deserve the lawsuits that follow (and follow they most assuredly will).

As for limited installs, it's gotta be a real pain, but the idea at its core (keeping pirate copies of one game disc from being installed everywhere) makes sense. It could work reasonably well if it were implemented better (until the hackers got to it of course ). However, if games using this "feature" take the same route as Bio Shock, then it's not as much of an issue in the long run... unless you upgrade on a near constant level during that first year or so of owning the game. Then you'd have issues most likely.



Oh, and that final line of mine that you quoted now reads more like a comment about you personally than it first seemed when I wrote it. Sorry about that. It wasn't intended that way.

[Ed Oscuro]

SPOT THE PIE-RAT

Don't take things that I've said out of context.

I didn't. I just took the facts as you presented them and put them together.

Not my fault they were wrong.

You're still a pie-rat.

[worstplayer]

Another anti-consumer shit i hate with passion are installers.
I can't fucking stand InstallShield. It just sits there for 5 minutes doing some stupid checks, then makes you click next over and over and over, then some more checks, and only then it finally starts SLOWLY copying files.
And uninstallation...holy shit. Why does it check application integrity before uninstalling? Don't they realize someone might want to uninstall something BECAUSE it's corrupted? Stupid fucks.

[Ed Oscuro]

Don't they realize someone might want to uninstall something BECAUSE it's corrupted? Stupid fucks.

Because without it the even worse program you used InstallShield to install will eat chunks of your other data and the registry :D

[worstplayer]

Don't they realize someone might want to uninstall something BECAUSE it's corrupted? Stupid fucks.

Because without it the even worse program you used InstallShield to install will eat chunks of your other data and the registry

The problem is it doesn't really do that. It only deletes files created during installation. You have to manually remove folders with crash logs and stuff anyway.

[Ed Oscuro]

I know, but just imagine the horror of some other program trying to wade through that stuff. OHNOZ

[Ex-Cyber]

I can't fucking stand InstallShield.

Funny fact: for a few years, InstallShield's complexity was responsible for a good chunk of the non-working apps in Wine (the Windows compatibility layer / app loader for Linux/BSD). In many cases the app itself would work fine if extracted and installed manually or copied from a Windows partition, but InstallShield would barf because it had all sorts of ridiculous internal architecture that wanted various OS/library facilities that virtually nothing else used. Apparently the guys at InstallShield were determined to make the most advanced installer framework ever.

As it happens, the more invasive forms of "copy protection" are another source of Wine compatibility headaches. Vista compatibility headaches too, according to some.

[MathU]

Looks like someone's finally taking action.

[captpain]

Just play arcade games instead. There's this cool genre, "shmups"... I love them.

[Elixir]

SPOT THE PIE-RAT

Don't take things that I've said out of context.

I didn't. I just took the facts as you presented them and put them together.

Not my fault they were wrong.

You're still a pie-rat.

I'm not. I haven't bought a PC game (as in, from a store) since the late 90's. Everything I do buy (Abe's Odyssey, TF2, Beyond Good & Evil) is purchased from Steam or they're just doujins. It's easier and I support this idea. The DS really should try following the same path Steam's done. Speaking of, did they stop making those unnecessarily large cardboard boxes for PC games yet?

[Stormwatch]

As a relevant sidenote, Wal*Mart is shutting down their DRM servers. So if you bought any music from them, you have about a month to jump through certain hoops -- or lose it all for good.

And that's what DRM is all about: only legit clients get screwed!

[Ceph]

Same with Microsoft. They are shutting down their Playsforsure DRM music service, which means that songs bought there will Notplayatall as soon as you reinstall your OS.

Just a friendly reminder to NOT buy any DRM content. Vote with your wallet.

[mr_m0nks]

as 99% of software you purchase doesn't mean you own it only that you have purchased a licence to run it. Does this happen in other media? DVD's, CD's etc? what about books, or sheet music? do you actually own any of it or is it only a limited licence as an end user?

At the end of the day though they said taping would kill music - wrong
VCR's would kill Hollywood - wrong
CD writers would kill music - wrong
DVD writers would kill Hollywood - wrong
The old Demoscene game crackers would kill videogames - wrong

These same industry doomsayers said the Internet would kill everything ever that anyone has created - probably wrong but hey there's always a first

It's a kneejerk reaction in exec boardrooms

"oh my god our latest cloneware piece of shit has been torrented 17,483 times, that means we have potentially lost, if we consider post product followup sales and renewed interest in our companies other games 56, 987,345,654.54 U.S. Dollars! Quick lets make all our games so CP'd that we get all that money back with people ringing our premium helpline because our software has just made their PC spit its DVD drive out of the window!"

[Ex-Cyber]

as 99% of software you purchase doesn't mean you own it only that you have purchased a licence to run it. Does this happen in other media? DVD's, CD's etc? what about books, or sheet music? do you actually own any of it or is it only a limited licence as an end user?

As far as I know, the "licensed, not sold" stuff is pretty much something that the software industry cooked up with no particular basis in law, and they've been hoping that nobody competent would challenge the premise, because it lets them play all sorts of interesting market segmentation games. One person did challenge it, in a limited sense, when he was unsuccessfully sued for reselling "academic use" software that he had never installed (thus he never agreed to the license agreement, which prohibited resale). I can't find the case right now but it was in the news a few years back. IIRC Microsoft ended up settling out of court (probably to avoid a precedent).

[jpj]

I never understand the argument that PC gaming is in a decline. It's simply not true.

it's not even an argument. i can only speak for the UK, but ELSPA figures have shown a consistent decline. for the last ten years, unit sales have been lower than the previous year. maybe it's different in the US, or you're a bit younger than i, but comparing the state of the pc market from today to 1995 is a world of difference.

on point: i love what companies like Introversion do. ie release a version of their latest game onto torrent sites a few days before release. it will play like a regular copy, but crash a lot ..... and installs a couple of hundred viruses onto your pc and if anyone knows how to make a good virus...

not every time you illegally procure a game are you cheating some big faceless corporation. Introversion have to do it because they are quite literally bedroom coders, and cracked copies directly affects their livelihood

i should post this bit in the other I PLAEZ GAMEZ 4 FREE LOL thread, but whatever. i read a book years back, some sci-fi shit, but what was interesting was the idea that in the future there's some centralised server that has all music/games/movies/etc and you pay a "entertainment" licence fee. flat fee, and unlimited access. and then contributors get paid according to how many times their stuff gets accessed.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

SPORE looks good. Really interesting, I was looking forward to it. But it's not worth all this bullshit.

I just wont buy it.

[Ed Oscuro]

All sorts of games use SecuROM, and I kinda doubt Spore's implementation is that different from that of other games.

Trying to play The Club without a CD installed, for example, will bring up an ugly gray box (instead of the usual themed autolauncher for the CD) with SecuROM in it.

[BryanM]

Only scanned the thread, didn't see if someone already mentioned this..

DRM doesn't have a damn thing to do with piracy. There is one and only one purpose that it exists: The secondary market of used games.

EA fucking hates this market. A lot. I'm sure they would be much, much happier if last year's Madden/whatever wasn't selling for $5 in a pawn shop.

Other assholes: Garth Brooks thought he deserved royalties off of used CD's. I guess he needed another gold limo?

The best DRM and anti-piracy method is by having dedicated servers and a living game. Blizzard. Arena.net. (Ironlore might still be in the business if they had done this.) Still, every account holder on those games has every right to transfer it to another human being for whatever reason, regardless of what an EULA that has illegal terms in it says.

Whenever someone mentions an EULA in a brown-nosing manner, punch them in the face for being retarded...

[Daedalus]

DRM doesn't have a damn thing to do with piracy. There is one and only one purpose that it exists: The secondary market of used games.

Wow, good insight. I never even thought of that.

EA fucking hates this market. A lot. I'm sure they would be much, much happier if last year's Madden/whatever wasn't selling for $5 in a pawn shop.

Yup. They do everything possible to get people to buy the latest version of Madden (except make a good game ). I know at least as of a couple years ago, they killed the online support as soon as the new iteration comes out. Even on Xbox, where they didn't have to pay a thing for servers...