Shooting Game Tournament 2008 (Organizer Recruitment)

[VorpalEdge]

Regarding Twin Bee Yahoo! specifically, the argument could certainly be made about the PSP collection. It would boil down to semantics, as the discussion would be about the arcade board original, versus the PSP port. However, if we'd been told to "get" the PSP collection to able to take part, then yes, there would have been an issue (to me anyway). That collection is quite new, and is still making Konami money in retail stores as we speak.

Nobody told anyone to get the PSP version. If they had it already, that's good, but the tournament didn't care and went on with MAME anyways. Yeah, Konami could have gotten some more money if the PSP version was mandated, but it wasn't. We simply didn't care if it was being sold or not. I don't see the difference between this and a Touhou game.

However, what percentage of the people who download such a game do you honestly think are going to go out and buy that new game after they pirated it? Something tells me there's going to be a substantial chunk who will happily keep their downloaded copy, and leave it at that while hiding behind "I wasn't going to buy it anyway, so they're not losing money".

The percentage of people who download a copy and then buy a legal one is pretty small, yeah. However, it's non-zero. I'm probably going to buy copies of PCB and StB soon, and I'd pirated them over a year ago (the only reason I don't have them already is because I don't want to spend too much money at once). This is important, because the number of people who would only buy it if they couldn't pirate it... well, I don't think anyone here would do that. In my mind, it's a pretty small non-zero percentage vs exactly zero.

I don't think it's necessary to bar the use of, arguably, the most popular series of doujin games in the tournament because of issues related to piracy. The tournament has not cared about such issues before, and I don't think this should become an issue now. I do respect your opinion, but I don't think including a Touhou game would cause ZUN to lose a sale he would have otherwise had.

(on a tangentially related aside: there is a company out there called Stardock that makes some PC games and has its own online distribution service. Recently they published a game, developed by Ironclad, titled Sins of a Solar Empire. While usually expensive copy-protection is included, Stardock didn't bother, and instead just let pirates do whatever and included an ingame mechanism for purchasing a code online and upgrading a pirated copy to a legit copy. By all accounts, this service has been pretty successful.)

[The Coop]

Nobody told anyone to get the PSP version. If they had it already, that's good, but the tournament didn't care and went on with MAME anyways. Yeah, Konami could have gotten some more money if the PSP version was mandated, but it wasn't. We simply didn't care if it was being sold or not. I don't see the difference between this and a Touhou game.

I don't think it's necessary to bar the use of, arguably, the most popular series of doujin games in the tournament because of issues related to piracy. The tournament has not cared about such issues before, and I don't think this should become an issue now. I do respect your opinion, but I don't think including a Touhou game would cause ZUN to lose a sale he would have otherwise had.

Here's the thing though. I think the tournament organizers do care... be it inadvertently, or purposefully.

See, I don't think the tournament has had an issue with it, because the tournament doesn't appear to have done it. All the games we've played and nominated over the last two years, were either arcade boards that don't look to be sold any more by their creators, or console games that fall into the same category (namely, Neo Geo stuff). Perhaps it was simply a coincidental side effect, but it seems like arcade games that are still being sold by their makers have been avoided thus far (I think the newest game was from 2000 or 2001). If I'm wrong, please let me know.

[orange]

i still say we should have to post picture proof that we own whatever game we're playing

[lgb]

2) Guwange

Guwange isn't anal.

moozooh, I don't want to see a doujin game in the tournament because there's a chance they all screw up with various comp configurations, which isn't often seen with emulators. That work for you?

[sikraiken]

If a doujin week is announced, the games selected would go through thorough testing on different setups to make sure there would be (hopefully) no problems. If any problems arose, they would be dealt with.

[Enhasa]

To get rid of the final question marks in DJI's post, I can do the voting week threads and final results thread, no question marks. (although I'm sure mikwuyma could do the final results by himself anyway)

This is important, because the number of people who would only buy it if they couldn't pirate it... well, I don't think anyone here would do that.

On a site where people buy PCB's, I don't agree with that at all.

Also, Uwabami Breakers is already better than Touhou and you already agreed you would rather play it anyway. Touhou doesn't deserve some special status in a doujin week, just like Cave isn't guaranteed a week in the rest of the tourney.

[lgb]

If a doujin week is announced, the games selected would go through thorough testing on different setups to make sure there would be (hopefully) no problems. If any problems arose, they would be dealt with.

Of course. But wouldn't it be better to just not bring the problem up to begin with?

I had tried to make a doujin-only tournament, but apparently no one wanted it.

[moozooh]

Of course. But wouldn't it be better to just not bring the problem up to begin with?

This "problem" does not even exist, at least yet. I don't understand why you are so worried about it. In fact it's you who are bringing it up before it happened.

It's like not going outside your home because something might happen to you. Mind you, personal safety is far more serious than videogames.

[lgb]

So games not working on certain computers isn't a problem?

[sikraiken]

It will all be tested before hand. I'll test all the games on Windows 95/98/2000/ME/XP/Vista, including different versions and service packs. I'll even see what I can do as far as linux and osx. There's only one person so far who's said (limited) to windows xp, everyone else uses some form of windows. We will be sure to try really hard to find any problems that may arise that way we won't have to actually deal with any if/when the week comes up.

[lgb]

Which is great, I just offered a suggestion which may be taken as hypocrisy. Go ahead and take it as such, as I do want to see a doujin week.

[sikraiken]

It's good, we will be opening up discussion for more questions like this.

[VorpalEdge]

On a site where people buy PCB's, I don't agree with that at all.

True, but Touhou games aren't PCBs, despite... PCB. Purchasing Touhou games is actually reasonable.

Also, Uwabami Breakers is already better than Touhou and you already agreed you would rather play it anyway. ;) Touhou doesn't deserve some special status in a doujin week, just like Cave isn't guaranteed a week in the rest of the tourney.

Nah, I think one Touhou game should be included in the week (probably IN). I am not advocating an all-Touhou week, I just think including one game is a complete no-brainer. It also helps that I don't agree with the currently posted reasons not to include one. Also, Cave did actually get its own week too, although I don't think a Touhou week would be a very good idea.

I dunno, maybe you guys could put together a list of doujins that doesn't contain Touhou and wow me (and disappoint Kennyman).

[MR_Soren]

There's only one person so far who's said (limited) to windows xp, everyone else uses some form of windows.

Actually, I do not currently have access to any version of Windows, and my one computer (running Mac OS X) is a very old laptop that is quite slow.

I intend to skip weeks with games I can't play. I don't expect the contest to cater to me.

[Enhasa]

True, but Touhou games aren't PCBs, despite... PCB. Purchasing Touhou games is actually reasonable.

Disregarding many counterexamples you could find on this site of people buying doujins without trying the demo even, just the fact that buying doujins is relatively cheap supports my point. Reread what you wrote, specifically "I don't think anyone here would do that," "exactly zero," and "I don't think ... Zun would lose a sale." By pointing out non-zero vs zero, you're implying that piracy actually helps sales. If you really think that, you're every bit as loony as the people who think piracy helps the movie, music, or gaming industries, or the Laffer economists who think that cutting taxes increases tax revenues. There's no need for piracy to evaluate either, that's why demos exist.

I just think including one game is a complete no-brainer. It also helps that I don't agree with the currently posted reasons not to include one. Also, Cave did actually get its own week too, although I don't think a Touhou week would be a very good idea.

I dunno, maybe you guys could put together a list of doujins that doesn't contain Touhou and wow me (and disappoint Kennyman).

First off, do you know the meaning of the phrase "isn't guaranteed"? You just did the equivalent of pointing out it was sunny yesterday in response to me saying "it isn't guaranteed to be sunny every day." All I have to show is that in fact, last year there was no Cave game. Hence, it's not guaranteed, it doesn't have a special pedestal, just like Touhou doesn't have a special pedestal. Also, in terms of the ratio of how much you like Touhou to how much you like doujins in general, you score many, many, many times higher than Kennyman, you know.

Where are all the people clamoring for say, Kamui as a no-brainer inclusion? Let me help out your feeling of Touhou no-brainer sense of entitlement. Coming up with such a list would be analogous to coming up with a list of RPGs that doesn't include FF or DQ. You might think it's hard with your insider mentality, but it's not.

I've always said that out of everyone I've ever met, you have by far the biggest problem with "hey, I think such and such, I can't imagine how everyone else doesn't feel the same way!" I know I've told you before, but you really should work on this.

I intend to skip weeks with games I can't play. I don't expect the contest to cater to me.

I figure if there's a doujin week, at least one selection would also run natively on OS X and Linux. Then you would vote for it and hope it wins. This is no different from the people in the tourney who refuse to emulate (there are some) and vote for a game they own. These people actually seem to outnumber the people who don't have access to Windows FWIW.

[KennyMan666]

I dunno, maybe you guys could put together a list of doujins that doesn't contain Touhou and wow me (and disappoint Kennyman).

- Bike Banditz
- Hisyouayu
- Gensou Shoujo
- Uwabami Breakers
- Psyche Metal the Bleeding
- Galshell Blood Red Skies
- Hitogatahappa
- Twin Seeds
- Airrade -Air-
- Angel,Destroyer
- Ultimate Stage
- nomltest
- Blue Wish Resurrection
- Samidare
- Syou So Gyoku
- Gochamaze no Arashi

You were saying?

Yes, yes, I know this post doesn't really add anything to the discussion at hand.

[moozooh]

I played like three of them. :D

Isn't Samidare commercial as well, though?

[KennyMan666]

More than half of the list consists of commercial games. But the question wasn't "list of non-commercial doujins", it was "list of non-Touhou doujins".

[VorpalEdge]

Where are all the people clamoring for say, Kamui as a no-brainer inclusion? Let me help out your feeling of Touhou no-brainer sense of entitlement.

The hell?

I am not clamoring for Touhou. Yes, I like the games. No, that's not why I'm arguing in favor of them. I didn't even bring them up. I just think that referencing piracy is a bad reason to exclude them. That's all. There are reasons I would agree with, but piracy is not one of them. I'd appreciate it if you would stop assuming that the only reason I'm posting in this topic is because I'm a giant fanboy who just can't stand to not see my favorite game ever! get on the ballot when I don't even plan to vote for it.

Yes, I do think including a Touhou game is a no-brainer. In fact, so do other people! Or did you not notice the blinding speed with which Imperishable Night was shortlisted? There is an audience for it. That's why I said it was a no-brainer. Yes, you're right, Touhou is not specifically enshrined in the Constitution of the Doujin Week. That doesn't change anything. If the only reason for not playing it is piracy-related issues, and if those issues aren't valid, then, well... follow my implication to its end.

My comment about a list was pretty much the only thing I've said in this topic that was actually slightly based on my like for the games. And even then, I still meant it in more of a "hey guys, I haven't played that many doujins, so if we're not playing touhou let's get some good ones" way than a "ALL DOUJINS SUCK TOUHOU 4 EVR!" way. (although, kenny, splitting the list into "free" and "commercial" halves would probably be a good idea too)

I'm glad you think you have me figured out just because you know my personality type, but seriously, stop. It's getting annoying.

By pointing out non-zero vs zero, you're implying that piracy actually helps sales. If you really think that, you're every bit as loony as the people who think piracy helps the movie, music, or gaming industries, or the Laffer economists who think that cutting taxes increases tax revenues.

No, it's just that I'd be willing to bet that all of the sales ZUN lost due to piracy have already been lost. IN's been out for what, years now? Anyone who was going to buy it but decided to pirate it has probably already done so. Yes, that is a "probably" and not a fact, but... oh well. We might as well coin an "enhanced demos" term or something and extol their glories while having fun, instead of watching our backs in case some lazy bum finally decides he can't wait for a CD and needs to play the game immediately. It's the silver lining of the cloud and all that.

The Coop, you are correct in that if the tournament organizers care it is an issue, but I haven't gotten any indications that they do.

Coming up with such a list would be analogous to coming up with a list of RPGs that doesn't include FF or DQ.

I guess I'm special! My list wouldn't have any FF or DQ games even without the restriction. :P

[freddiebamboo]

There is no chance of a Touhou game being shortlisted.

[Observer]

mmm, I think a lot of people here hate doujin stuff as a whole, not just Touhou... Because, ya know, it's doujin stuff: crappy, low budget, broken, etc, etc, etc. That till they see HellSinker or that acid trip called Exception*, jeez, CubeLand rocks.

But I will give you a valid reason to avoid including, for example, Mountain of Faith:

Broken character, MarisaB. Bugs when viewing replays. Broken scoring mechanics (I think there was something about this and the bombing+chaining enemies, I can't remember), the final spellcard deal and other bugs I can't remember.

Imperishable Night is good but seems to have that "Malice Cannon" thing and the Border Team being, apparently, overpowered plus if you choose some characters and get to Reimu's boss fight... It's an infinitely more annoying and harder battle than the other one.

So, yep, I agree that if they we going to throw flak at Touhou, let's do it for the right things and ignore the rest.

I'll skip the whole piracy deal as I'm on a buying spree, trying to get the games. I preordered and bought Scarlet Weather Rhapsody. I got Diadra Empty, heck, I bought Ether Vapor from SFKhoa (bless him! I love this game!) and even searched for a japanese copy of Omega Boost in mint condition. If I can buy it, I usually try to save and get it. I'm really patient so I don't care about waiting.

By the way, ZUN patched Subterranean Animism trial twice. Could the trial be used for the tournament? Features 3 stages and it's a free download from the official site so everyone could get it. Looks more polished than the previous trials. Of course, some may argue.

I'm all for Blue Wish Resurrection and Uwabami Breakers. Both are really good.

*Exception can be purchased from Melonbooks 'for foreigners' at around 12usd as an online download (Dojin Broadband System) with an international credit card... Problem is that the game requires a good computer to keep 60fps.

[ICR]

Bear in mind that if Touhou did get picked, participants would have to:

1) Find an ISO/BIN of said game
2) Download all 400MB+ of it
3) Hope it is compatible with your OS
4) Hope it installs properly
5) Hope it runs without crashing, freezing, glitching or excessive slowdown

All of the above should exclude (full-ver) Touhou from any shortlist.
Either that, or use the demos.

Also, pick smaller download games. As much as I'd love to see Airrade Air, Trouble Witches, Tobi D+VINE and Magical Amber in the tournament, doujin games - especially the more system-intensive ones - are far too volatile with regards to optimal computer configuration to be of any use in a maximum participant competition.

[BulletMagnet]

WB Icky! *glomps* <3

C'mon, join Team Loser, you know you want to. If you do, then we have a shot at winning the "most members with 3-letter usernames" award.

[DJ Incompetent]

Hmmm, I'm not sure about choosing the theme weeks myself, especially if it really does require getting along with others :p, but I guess I can try.

I'd be willing to help you with making the decision or by giving you my thoughts about what you want to do.

mikwuyma, by all means, after gathering the data for what theme choices are most popular, it'd be good to run the ideas of the final week theme list by sik and Twiddle. Besides the fact both know their shit, Twiddle's gotta sift through the games on testing.

Uh, what am I drwarioing? Should I wait for the themes?

Sorry for the double post, but I'll volunteer to help with the banners. Not sure if you're still looking for assistance in that area, but I thought I'd offer.

Pardon my ignorance, but how can you have two banners done already, if we don't know what "weeks" are decided upon yet, or what games are eligible to voted on for those weeks? Aren't the banners supposed to be made up the choices for a given week?

There are 7 banners
1 for sik's Registration Thread
1 for mik's Theme Weeks and Possible Rules Thread
5 for the theme weeks.

The theme week banners can tie as loosly to the shmups genre or as detailed toward the week theme as you and Zebra want. That's the thing with art......Artsy banner is artsy..

I'll leave JoshF and Zebra Airforce in charge of the banners. If they want to let The Coop or whoever else design any or split up the work with other forums members, JoshF and Zebra can PM or designate that as they please.

You guys should PM your Reg Thread banner to sikraiken and PM your Theme Weeks Thread banner to mikwuyma right about now...


--------------------------------------------------------


A'ight. This is how I see it going down:

The Registration Thread:
sikraiken

The Week Themes Selection Thread:
mikwuyma

The Shortlist Guy:
Twiddle

The Voting Week Threads:
sikraiken

The Scoring Weeks Threads:
mikwuyma

The Final Results Thread:
Davey
Enhasa
ED-057 ~?

The Banner Art Guys:
JoshF & Zebra Airforce


So the question I have is for Davey and Enhasa. Both of you wish to do this thread. If neither will step down, How about one of you makes the point calculations using the current points system, then PMs it to the other guy and he will open the Final Results Thread and format all the tables.

If you both agree to this, you guys decide which person will do what. And if either of you may or may not want to get a hold of ED-057 to see if he's really gonna write that script, that's more power to you guys....


@mikwuyma
About changing points system. I haven't read the long version arguement yet, but since I'm not gonna get there tonight I'll say up front I'd prefer the current system instead of a single linear point spread between all players. This is because I believe the time spent practicing and strategizing becomes exponential the higher the player wants to place. The really high points and gaps for the top 15-20 I think somewhat accurately reflect that.
I'll flesh out thoughts more another time. I got a lotta thread reading to do...


@ICR
Sorry for the delay. I haven't forgotten about you, dude. Had to track down a few links to reply with and didn't get to it. No I didn't message you a first time at YT. Their database is usally messed to hell. I'll prolly hit you back at your HQ.

Oh and welcome back, guy :)

[ED-057]

So the question I have is for Davey and Enhasa. Both of you wish to do this thread. If neither will step down, How about one of you makes the point calculations using the current points system, then PMs it to the other guy and he will open the Final Results Thread and format all the tables.

If you both agree to this, you guys decide which person will do what. And if either of you may or may not want to get a hold of ED-057 to see if he's really gonna write that script, that's more power to you guys....

Depending on when the playing starts I don't know if I'll have time to automate all the functions (team ranking, top three, individual ranking) but I'll see what I can do.

[JoshF]

Hey I'm lazy now I just want to do the Carvan week banner,

[Enhasa]

I don't have a burning desire to do anything here, I just wanted to see the remaining question marks filled out ASAP. I'll defer and let Davey take care of it if he doesn't mind. I'm used to organizing stuff, so it's nice to kick back this time.

[Davey]

I guess I'm the results guy, then.

As far as automating the results, I should be able to handle that myself. My job mostly involves working with databases and spreadsheets these days, so it'd be pretty sad if I struggled with it.

There have been talks about changing the scoring system. I don't care what gets decided, but I need to know the specifics to I can set everything up (how many points for each rank, what happens if less than 3 people on a team submit a score, etc.). Although I'm guessing this will be spelled out in a thread anyway.

[Edge]

Thanks DJI. Seems like your initiative, looking for new organizers was pretty successful. So that the STGT-thing keeps running. I am happy it has become such a popular, annual event.

Good luck to the new organizer-stuff and to all players joining in.

[mikwuyma]

Davey: I'll definitely spell out how scoring works in the near future. If I don't tell you in a week or two, then just bug me about it.