MGS4

[bay]

i only figured out the plane goodies after the 3rd act. so much nicer to have all those batteries!

you can just go back into the briefings you missed and get he stuff and save into your current save file.

[Turrican]

Absolutely correct.

The problem is, I don't want to skip a single cutscene or a single codec message - I even listen to then speak it rather than skipping to read. This is because I want both the full experience as the developer intended, and not to miss important story developments.

But it's the responsibility of the director to trim these aspects down to engaging, relevant material. The redundant backlog needs to stay on the cutting room floor.

I can't think of how improved things would be (even more than they already are!) if Hideo had a better sense of what is unecessary to such an exciting game.

QED - You feel compelled so that you don't want to miss a single drop of juicy drama. It's not the game which needs editing - it's you, as "hardcore audience" who don't know where to stop. Reading everything as you do is not living the full experience as Hideo intended. The abundance and occasional repetition is there to make the game lasting more than one play, so you can still squeeze some scenario writing from it. You think you're playing it "fully", you're just doing it a disservice. I wouldn't want any of these juicy optional, weird, and at times completely pointless dialogues to be removed so that action fans get their streamlined first playthrough. There's plenty of other games that already offer that.

[Skykid]

Absolutely correct.

The problem is, I don't want to skip a single cutscene or a single codec message - I even listen to then speak it rather than skipping to read. This is because I want both the full experience as the developer intended, and not to miss important story developments.

But it's the responsibility of the director to trim these aspects down to engaging, relevant material. The redundant backlog needs to stay on the cutting room floor.

I can't think of how improved things would be (even more than they already are!) if Hideo had a better sense of what is unecessary to such an exciting game.

QED - You feel compelled so that you don't want to miss a single drop of juicy drama. It's not the game which needs editing - it's you, as "hardcore audience" who don't know where to stop. Reading everything as you do is not living the full experience as Hideo intended. The abundance and occasional repetition is there to make the game lasting more than one play, so you can still squeeze some scenario writing from it. You think you're playing it "fully", you're just doing it a disservice. I wouldn't want any of these juicy optional, weird, and at times completely pointless dialogues to be removed so that action fans get their streamlined first playthrough. There's plenty of other games that already offer that.

I disagree.

There's an emptiness in any gaming experience if I've chosen to skip something. I never know what I may have missed.
So if that's Hideo's intention - skip some stuff now and read it next time you play - it's totally ass backward. I think it's a much more sound theory to say that he leaves too much in, and needs to learn to edit a little better.
I think that's the theory most would agree with.

[Turrican]

I disagree.

There's an emptiness in any gaming experience if I've chosen to skip something. I never know what I may have missed.
So if that's Hideo's intention - skip some stuff now and read it next time you play - it's totally ass backward. I think it's a much more sound theory to say that he leaves too much in, and needs to learn to edit a little better.
I think that's the theory most would agree with.

You seemed to like RE4's overall narrative flow, I wonder just how much you would have cut from these games. Probably enough to have Snake yell a couple of fancy lines. In fact, who decides what's necessary and what not? Emma talking of her parrot was necessary to me, otherwise I wouldn't have liked her character that much. Peter's speech on his false prosthetic leg was necessary. Olga worrying about her child too... In short, I think MGS's very aesthetics are defined by this approach - dry dialogues too much, and you'll back in the pure videogame realm, when the story doesn't need to be any more complex than "gather the Triforce and rescue the princess", and dialogues don't even need to be there ("Mute hero" anyone?).

However, you seem to think much of the script is pretty worthwhile too, if you can't bring yourself to skip some of the redundant parts. So in the end we agree...?

P.S. how far are you into the game now?

[Skykid]

I think you're getting me wrong - I think the richness of the characters is excellent, and the depth of their character is at times what makes MGS so engrossing.
That doesn't excuse verbose rants that can be summed up in much more concise terms, and I think the balance in scripting in MGS2 was very poor indeed- although the characters had depth, I was bored to tears by most of the ramblings.

But MGS4 is leaps and bounds ahead, I'm really soaking it all up, and Hideo has certainly listened to criticism.

I'm about half way through ACT 3 - what a ride!

[Shatterhand]

Absolutely correct.

The problem is, I don't want to skip a single cutscene or a single codec message - I even listen to then speak it rather than skipping to read. This is because I want both the full experience as the developer intended, and not to miss important story developments.

But it's the responsibility of the director to trim these aspects down to engaging, relevant material. The redundant backlog needs to stay on the cutting room floor.

I can't think of how improved things would be (even more than they already are!) if Hideo had a better sense of what is unecessary to such an exciting game.

I don't want to read too much about MGS4 to avoid any spoilers, but I have to keep checking this thread as a moderator... and this got my eyes.

That's exactly how I feel, I don't even like to cut the speech, I usually want to see all the game has to offer, and as much as the developer wanted. I don't even like branching paths and stuff that makes me feel I am missing something.

[Skykid]

Absolutely correct.

The problem is, I don't want to skip a single cutscene or a single codec message - I even listen to then speak it rather than skipping to read. This is because I want both the full experience as the developer intended, and not to miss important story developments.

But it's the responsibility of the director to trim these aspects down to engaging, relevant material. The redundant backlog needs to stay on the cutting room floor.

I can't think of how improved things would be (even more than they already are!) if Hideo had a better sense of what is unecessary to such an exciting game.

I don't want to read too much about MGS4 to avoid any spoilers, but I have to keep checking this thread as a moderator... and this got my eyes.

That's exactly how I feel, I don't even like to cut the speech, I usually want to see all the game has to offer, and as much as the developer wanted. I don't even like branching paths and stuff that makes me feel I am missing something.

I'm you feel the same SH. I suspect that there's probably something in us old-schoolers, used to straightforward games in which you glean everything special as you go through the first time.

I started to get seriously pissed when developers started to put multiple endings in role playing game. I mean, what the fuck, unless I can only afford one game every three years, I want to see the proper ending the first time and stick it with satisfaction to the bottom of the pile.

MGS4 though, is, as noted, a far less painful experience overall!

[Turrican]

Less painful, listen to criticism... All words to say that the franchise has finished generating controversy. I'll always respect Kojima for what he did, to generate controversy were his creature had set the highest peak of expectations.

I think the richness of the characters is excellent, and the depth of their character is at times what makes MGS so engrossing.
That doesn't excuse verbose rants that can be summed up in much more concise terms.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, as the non-concise rants are exactly the over-detailed bits which constitute depth. I've seen plenty of likeable characters and concise storytellings in games- Prince of Persia Sands of Times could be an example. I'm pretty sure that wasn't what Kojima was aiming for.

I still think MGS2 is the best script-wise. You may see the following ones as a redeeming path, but I think that's only half the truth. MGS4 is much more similar to MGS2 than to MGS3 in structure, in fact. The author has been stubbornly coherent in his own view imho - things like overabundant codec and postmodernism aren't being wiped off to quiet criticism, but only because a good trick can only work once, and only with a protagonist which is not the experienced Solid Snake. Anyway, may you enjoy the final ride that awaits you.

@Shatterhands: it all boils down if you later feel the urge to complain on forums for the longwinded torture you just chose to inflict on yourself. For the record, I put myself in the very same hardcore side of yours gentlemen - my playthorughs are all an extensive codec chitchat occasionally interrupted by shooting a tranquilizer or two - of course, I do that to myself, and I absolutely love every second of it. And that's not because I'm uneducated to the art of movie editing - I just know that MGS works a different way.

That's a load of bs dude - I'm not disputing there have been MGS cutscenes that really had incredible moments - they exist throughout the series. But this time around the general direction and quality of even the conversational cutscenes are extremely well put together, making the player more engaged.

Not only I disagree that, but I also think that sadly there has been a slightly (almost non-perceivable) quality drop in motion capture animations for some actors. I'm referring to some scenes involving Naomi and Sunny, which are more "robotic" and less realistic than what the series had shown before. I blame PS3 relatively new hardware for that - Kojima Production would have probably solved this with some more time.

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Some people just can't accept that something they like can have flaws.

[Specineff]

Kojima said that people would like Raiden a lot at the end. Does this happen? And, how? Does he like kill the Patriots, Cyborg Ninja-style? Or was he just talking out of his ass? (Please use spoiler warnings)

[Strider77]

I liked raiden..... he just shows up to bring in some muscle/assistance when needed.

It's alot like the cyber ninjas in the past.

[Ed Oscuro]

Cyber Shinobi was the worst of the series (or at least close).

[Turrican]

Some people just can't accept that something they like can have flaws.

I agree, some people are like that. Not my case though.

@Speci: that's one question one should really play the game to have an answer.

[Skykid]

Some people just can't accept that something they like can have flaws.

Turrican he's right, man. Even though you've watched my journey regarding MGS4 turn from scepticism and apprehension to one of praise and love, you've failed to accept on your part that there's anything wrong with the execution of MGS. It might be a nine out of ten, but its not a ten (IMO of course) and there're reasons for that, however small.

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way, as the non-concise rants are exactly the over-detailed bits which constitute depth.

Sorry man, that's baloney. There are plenty of ways, and the subtle ones are usually the best, that a great director can create plenty of depth and emotion.
Trying to force depth by ramming three minutes of convoluted backstory down your throat doesn't cut it for me.

[Turrican]

you've failed to accept on your part that there's anything wrong with the execution of MGS. It might be a nine out of ten, but its not a ten (IMO of course) and there're reasons for that, however small.

Why you say this? I played the role of the supporter here, and yet I have fairly clear in mind each of the episodes' flaws. I even mentioned them - it's kinda amusing to read that I couldn't admit flaws in something I like the exact post after I mentioned I wasn't satisfied with some of MGS4 characters animations.

Sorry man, that's baloney. There are plenty of ways, and the subtle ones are usually the best, that a great director can create plenty of depth and emotion.
Trying to force depth by ramming three minutes of convoluted backstory down your throat doesn't cut it for me.

There are plenty of ways: yes. Is that Kojima's way? No. Simple as that. There are plenty of ways to do a war movie, there's Platoon and there's Paths of Glory. You say it doesn't cut it for you, huh? Well, it certainly doesn't seem like that if all the convoluted blurb wasn't enough for you to recede from your hardcore policy of "I have to see it all at once".

I think Kojima is usually subtle when he has to deal with depth and emotion. Having to hold Emma's hand was a subtle meaning to express her frailty. The three minutes of convoluted backstory serve other purposes... To disorient you, maybe. To drown you into false information... All of this worked better in MGS2 than the following ones... There: another criticism I'm doing to something I like.

Oh, I'd rate 9/10 at least three of them too. And I'm not certainly here to claim MGS perfection. You brought up Oscars, profound themes, "art". I just tried to defend the games' script that was being compared to a game that basically could have done (better) without a script.

[Skykid]

I even mentioned them - it's kinda amusing to read that I couldn't admit flaws in something I like the exact post after I mentioned I wasn't satisfied with some of MGS4 characters animations.

Okay man, lets not debate it any further. We'll agree to disagree.
Citing the character animations as a flaw is beyond me though - the entire thing looks suitably incredible, and I see no evidence of a cutback in quality from the previous instalments.

[Turrican]

Okay man, lets not debate it any further. We'll agree to disagree.
Citing the character animations as a flaw is beyond me though - the entire thing looks suitably incredible, and I see no evidence of a cutback in quality from the previous instalments.

I look forward to discuss the series more once you've completed it. I think the disagreement was civil and interesting for most time.

The briefing which starts with Naomi helping Sunny to cook eggs - that's the scene where I thought animation was a bit lacking. To animate convincingly two women, of different age... It was not an easy task, of course.

[Ed Oscuro]

I imagine Turrican is sited behind Yahtzee's house deciding which window to break in through

[Turrican]

I imagine Turrican is sited behind Yahtzee's house deciding which window to break in through

Actually I found that to be amusing

[UnscathedFlyingObject]

Yahtzee hits the nail in the head about the need to cut the slack in MGS games.

[Skykid]

Yahtzee hits the nail in the head about the need to cut the slack in MGS games.

Although he's not the authority, I can see a majority vote in this thread.

Anyway, back to MGS4, I reached Act 4 last night and oh boy. That's all I'm saying.

[Jon]

^^^I just beat Raging Raven myself last night. I liked Snakes little dream sequence introducing act four.

[Skykid]

^^^I just beat Raging Raven myself last night. I liked Snakes little dream sequence introducing act four.

A warning Jon not to mention any spoilers, but as you've mentioned this, I wholeheartedly agree. Twas the best thing evah.

[Jon]

I thought I went out of my way not to.

[Turrican]

^^^I just beat Raging Raven myself last night. I liked Snakes little dream sequence introducing act four.

A warning Jon not to mention any spoilers, but as you've mentioned this, I wholeheartedly agree. Twas the best thing evah.

Nah, nah, the best thing evah happens something like 5-10 minutes after that point

[Skykid]

I thought I went out of my way not to.

No worries man, you didn't! It was a just in-case is all - I know Shatterhand will be pissed as he's moderating this thread.

But no sweat, you're good!

[Turrican]

Gears of War developers won't be inspired by MGS

I had not the slightest doubt about it.

[Skykid]

I imagine Turrican is sited behind Yahtzee's house deciding which window to break in through

THAT WAS BRILLIANT! ROFL!

N' while its very true indeed, if you give MGS4 the time (and you've at least played 1 and, god help me, "oh no not those two cunts again", 2, then it's pretty frickin cool.

[Strider77]

well... gears wasn't really known for a real story. doesn't need one either for me to like it. but I doubt it'll have anything on MGS4 story wise.

side note.... all this MGS2 hate made me go through it again thios week. only real complaint is the lack of varity in areas to go to.

[Jon]

I always thought MGS 2 had some of the weaker bosses of the series. Vamp and Fortune were alright but a fat guy on rollerblades?

Nah, nah, the best thing evah happens something like 5-10 minutes after that point

Cool, I saved right after the intro. Only three more hours of work to go.

I just watched the zero punctuation review. As always pretty damn funny stuff.