MGS4

[Ed Oscuro]

The difference is you didn't pay attention. There is no "cloaked guy," there's a whole group of them. Some of them are infected and some aren't.

Both game series are pretty heavy-handed about throwing improbable "revelations" in your face, although the nice thing about RE4 was that it puts most of them in files which you can safely ignore for the greater part. I don't say that MGS2 (and, I imagine, MGS4) don't have subtle plot points, which is why I'm not going to pretend they don't exist, because it would be degrading to argue the way you just did. No offense.

You completely sidestepped the point about the dialogue, and that's because you can't back up your claim there. I don't assume every bit of RE4's dialogue is better than every bit of MGS2's, but from what I remember MGS2 only seemed to get onto the same level of dialogue (both games are stricken with chatterbox bishie characters), and didn't really surpass it.

Also, your Pac-Man to MGS comparisons are pretty lol. I had never thought of it before, and I'm wondering if you aren't just trying to ruin the game further for me.

tl;dr version:
LAUGH AND GROW FAT
LAUGH AND GROW FAT
LAUGH AND GROW FAT
LAUGH AND GROW FAT
LAUGH AND GROW FAT
LAUGH AND GROW FAT
LAUGH AND GROW FAT

No, I'm no high,

Agreed?

[Skykid]

Turrican, is you high?

As a kite.

MGS2 I think is universally considered as the worst of the bunch. It personally put me off the series and I lost faith in Hideo big time.
Regarding dialogue and just very flawed direction, I'll have to regurgitate that moment of pure idiocy when Raiden has a conversation with his bird during a bomb diffusal.

RE4 was a really terrific game. The whole thing took the series and flipped it on its head. It had a real cinematic momentum, and was incredibly engrossing. I absolutely love the way that game starts off, allowing you to play all the way through to the town square, have that huge gunfight with the chainsaw nut, and then everyone dissapears, allowing the camera to zoom out and the title to come in at the toll of a bell.

Not pompous, not bloated, not in dire need of an editor. Just pure gaming magic.

[Ed Oscuro]

Your Hollywood movies aren't postmodern enough

[Turrican]

I agree that RE4 was a terrific game. Unfortunately its storytelling is about the same as Forgotten Worlds, paramecium included.

You both didn't like MGS2, that's fine. It's entirely appropriate to prefer a Van Damme flick to Paul Auster's City of Glass. I don't blame you.

[Ed Oscuro]

Apparently it's also appropriate to criticize a game for qualities where it's actually better than its supposed "better" and then forget about it when reminded of the record.

Dry up, would you?

[Turrican]

Apparently it's also appropriate to criticize a game for qualities where it's actually better than its supposed "better" and then forget about it when reminded of the record.

I fail to comprehend what you just wrote, pardon.

I never criticized RE4's gameplay, if that's what you imply. And why all the bitterness Ed? You seem to take it rather personal.

[Ed Oscuro]

Dialogue, as said before. I was repeating myself because I thought you missed the point, and right I was. And I thought I was the tired one.

[Turrican]

You assume you are right, but you aren't. I didn't disregard your comments on dialogues. I just don't know where to start pointing you're wrong. You say the Laugh and grow fat line is awful - well, to me a good 80% of Leon and Saddler's lines are like that one if not worse.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/gamecub ... 5840/34828


"Feeble humans. Let us give you our power."

"Sounds more like an alien invasion if you ask me!"

"What a pleasant suprise. But I'm afraid it's Ashley we need, not you
Mr. Kennedy."

"Don't just stand there, come out and fight like a man."

"Well, if it isn't the bitch in the red dress."

"Two down, one more to go Krauser."

"Ah, the audacity of youth."

"Oh, I think you know. The american prevailing is a cliche that only
happens in your Hollywood movies. Mr. Kennedy, you entertain men. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of cliches."

"Hang on sweetheart!"

That pretty sums up the dialogues in the game - every phrase Leon says is either a punchline, an attempt to sarcasm, or yelling something. As I said, it's around the same literacy level of Final Fight's intro. Of course, both are awesome pure gaming moments. Nothing wrong in that.

[Strider77]

I guess I'm one of the few who can like all these games. Like I said, to each his own.

Resident Evil 5 is gonna be a minor upgrade game control wise... that's all I expect or need.

[PROMETHEUS]

Hey Strider,

I don't want to get into this too deep, but I also have all three consoles right here. It's certainly not that the PS3 pad isn't functional, but it is outdated. I don't think the Wii is next gen simply because of it's interface, but yes, it has ushered in a different type of gaming built around its pad, simple as it may be.
The problem with the PS3 pad is that in essence it's a PS1 pad, and that has me crying in my tea. I think that this entire generation is a bit of a cop out really, it's just last gen gaming in new clothes - but the 360 pad is very good indeed (as long as the d-pad is relegated to simple options switching). It's hardly more of an advance over the original xbox pad than the Saturn 6 button was over the Megadrive, but it is different in all the right places, making fancier looking games very intuitive to control. Most 360 games take good advantages of the pad, the pressure sensitive triggers, twin analogues and shoulder buttons - just about all the elements there are.

But the PS3 pad can't hope to push too far beyond a PS1 experience, even if the game looks ten times better.

You know, PC gaming is still done mostly with keyboard and mouse and those certainly haven't changed much at all in the last couple of decades. They may not be innovative, but they are high grade controllers that can't quite easily be replaced by something new and better. They outdo console controllers in all but analogic control. Looking for innovations in controls as a necessary evolution is pointless imo, the PS1 controller was a very good controller and it just got a little updated into what is now the DualShock 3, period. Ideas such as the sixaxis system are a cool +, but nothing special.

Keeping the same controls, PC gaming has still been able to evolve dramatically through decades. Competitive RTS and FPS may have reached kind of a peak with Starcraft / Quake 3 and Counter Strike near 2000, but solo games have continued to evolve and make the best out of the new technologies and ideas to create stuff like Half Life 2. So I really don't believe just because the PS controller is staying the same (well, it's just nearly perfect for what it's supposed to allow you to do), the games are going to stay the same as well. Innovative games still exist, and evolution of already existing genres is always open.

I also don't think something like the Wii controller, that is innovative, is actually bringing anything new and interesting to gaming. Basically its functions are nearly similar to an analogic joystick with a loss in accuracy and speed. The only new element it brings to the table (3D control) really hasn't been found an interesting use yet. Right now it just serves to make games more appealing to the most casual of players, and much less appealing to the experienced players, due to the loss in control tightness.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For Skykid,

I'd like to hear your comments on the PS3 SixAxis controller and the PS3 Dual Shock 3 controller...

Only if SCEI had brought out the Dual Shock 3 controller and included it with the PS3 console on debut day back in late 2006 instead of Spring of 2008. It means having to shell out more $$$ for the early PS3 adopters if they want to upgrade to Dual Shock 3 status since they only have the lone SixAxis controller that came with the bundled console set...

At least Wal-Mart sells the Dual Shock 3 controller for $49.99 USD, five bucks cheaper than at other retail places...

The original SCEI Dual Analog Controller had a single feedback motor for the JPN version whereas in the USA version, the motor was removed. Eventually it was superceeded with the twin motorized Dual Shock I version. (Even the JPN/USA versions of PSX version of Ghost In the Shell games have built-in support for the Dual Shock I controller -- it works like a charm!) A few years back in Japan, there was a Sony PSX exhibit showcasing the various preliminary designs and concepts that became the original PSX D-pad controller and the Dual Shock I controller from Sony's in-house R&D team -- interesting to look at... ^_~

The process of creating a new gaming console controller from scratch is a lengthy one indeed...a lot of testing, making new molds, and refining it to perfection until the final design is selected and mass produced for worldwide consumption...

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Specineff]

^^^^Psst...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/9/24/

[Ed Oscuro]

That pretty sums up the dialogues in the game - every phrase Leon says is either a punchline, an attempt to sarcasm, or yelling something. As I said, it's around the same literacy level of Final Fight's intro. Of course, both are awesome pure gaming moments. Nothing wrong in that.

I don't know why I keep trying to convince myself that I can have a meaningful discussion with somebody who started out being flippant and still won't reform that attitude.

Maybe you're not a native English speaker so I can forgive putting the hilarious line about Hollywood cliches in your list. The others are no worse than their average counterpart in MGS2.

There is nothing in MGS2 that struck me as profound without either straining for credibility or throwing sanity out the window and going postmodern (i.e. the stupid "I NEED SCISSORS" rant which no grown man will willingly put up with).

[Turrican]

I don't know why I keep trying to convince myself that I can have a meaningful discussion with somebody who started out being flippant and still won't reform that attitude.

Maybe because you have some esteem for me, and you don't think I'm a total nuts?

Maybe you're not a native English speaker so I can forgive putting the hilarious line about Hollywood cliches in your list. The others are no worse than their average counterpart in MGS2.

I'm not native English speaker... Jeez I thought you of all people knew this.

There is nothing in MGS2 that struck me as profound without either straining for credibility or throwing sanity out the window and going postmodern

OK. How about this piece:

Raiden : Emma... it's not your fault. If it wasn't for the terrorists...

Emma : Yeah... you're right... Well... I think that's about all I know.

Raiden : Right... uh, thanks. I think we'd better head for the Computer
Room.

Emma : My bird in the Computer Room! Is he safe!?

[That irritating parrot from the computer room is shown.]

Raiden : That noisy, overgrown parakeet?

Emma : Excuse me, he's a parrot. And he's my best friend -- my only
friend.

Raiden : Well, the bird's okay...

Emma : Good. Did you know that in the old days, miners used to take a canary into the mine shaft to detect toxic gas?

Raiden : That's what he's for?

Emma : No... I needed somebody to talk to...

Raiden : Right, I think we'd better get moving.

[Shell 2's flooded levels are shown.]

Raiden : We've got a little longer to cover than last time.

Emma : Right, I'll give it my best.

Raiden : Whatever you do, don't open your eyes.

Emma : Why not?

Raiden : A dead body, not a pretty sight.

[Stillman's bloody body is shown floating in the water.]

Emma : Oh...

Raiden : Once we get past it, it will be too dark to see anything.

[Raiden glances at Emma's hair.]

Raiden : What are those sticks in your head?

Emma : These? They're lacquered chopsticks. They hold your hair in
place. Did you know they're pretty popular in Europe and South
America?

Raiden : Can't say I do. Your not only cute, but smart too.

Emma : Oh -- I'm much more than cute. [smiling]

There's nothing too postmodern about it, is there? Just a great work on characterization.

Look, I'm being friendly, but when you write:

Both game series are pretty heavy-handed about throwing improbable "revelations" in your face, although the nice thing about RE4 was that it puts most of them in files which you can safely ignore for the greater part.

You just express your attitude towards narration - a nuisance that hopefully can be ignored / skipped altogether. Now I'm not saying that's bad. It's perfectly fine - I do enjoy shmups after all. I'm just saying, probably the games of a guy which started with digital comics like Snatcher & Policenauts aren't the good choice for you. That's all I'm saying. But don't come here pretending that a couple of bossy lines like "Hey the bitch dressed in red" are on par with the piece I quoted above.

No harsh feelings.

[Ed Oscuro]

Shit sux.

RE4's lines you quoted involve a lot of satire that apparently you can't appreciate. Your loss.

The lines you've quoted from MGS2 are a fine example of what happens when somebody gets the mistaken idea that navel-gazing is a worthwhile endeavor. MGS2 also has a large level of satire, and on that merit the Fat Man's dialogue is worthwhile, but it's mixed in with such an abominable and noxious mix of worthless post-modernism and over the top animu posturing that it's simply hard to stomach in the long doses it's administered to the viewer. It killed the canary years ago. That is at odds with the game's apparent mission of revealing "hidden truths."

The key difference between the two is that RE4's producers remembered they were making a game and so kept things brief.

As Orwell said, never use a long word where a short one will do.

But don't come here pretending that a couple of bossy lines like "Hey the bitch dressed in red" are on par with the piece I quoted above.

You seem not to realize that line was meant to remind viewers of the history of those two players. RE4 makes Leon think out loud because, surprise, there's no other real way to let players know what's going on in his mind otherwise.

The lines you're quoting from MGS2 aren't very revealing and they don't move the story along.

In a superficial way, they remind me of the chatty nature of "The Scarlet Gang of Asakusa," one of the more famous works of early Japanese modernist writing. That work is infamous for its wildly unstructured format, and it essentially evolves into a narrated travelogue of Tokyo in the late 20s. The difference, once again, between the posers (MGS2's writers) and the master (Yasunari Kawabata) is that there's something going on all the time in The Scarlet Gang. It is coherent. It is interesting. Kawabata pointed out interesting things like prostitutes and bird-catchers and reminisced about the Great Kanto Earthquake, things that were news or at least resonated with Tokyo residents enough to make spots on the map famous.

MGS2 throws out uninteresting asides about well-worn cliches you can hear turning on your TV set. I know that was likely part of the idea, but unfortunately this is a completely backwards way of communicating ideas. It goes without saying that they sacrificed the quality of their writing for making a few points that could have been put forward in a less tiresome fashion.

[Turrican]

The key difference between the two is that RE4's producers remembered they were making a game and so kept things brief.

That's exactly the difference - some minor artisans were contempt by just repeating the same path the medium had been for years; someone else with a great ego and a great grasp of the medium dared to broke those rules.

As I said, to each his own - just don't try to pass everything in RE4 as a satire of the genre (it isn't; it's just being honestly what it is - a badly written action flick) nor me for someone who can't appreciate its finesse for some language barrier.

RE4 was terrbibly broken story-wise. It introduced cliché and forgettable characters like the blondie Ashley - the most intriguing thing you can do with her is trying to see under her skirt. It had a set of bad assorted villains, one more ridiculous than the other, end all of them dangerously out of touch with the spirit of an horror setting. The only character which, while still being a stereotype for the most part, turned out pretty good was Luis De Silva (read: Depp), and the scenario writers were so incredibly dumb to get rid of him early in the game. As I said, awesome controls, awesome rollercoaster of a game, but the cheesiest plot out there. A Bruce Lee flick has the pathos of a Shakespeare's play in comparison. Heck, a Walker Texas Ranger episode is probably better.

EDIT: since you edited:

Oh please. I've read Kawabata. We can go further in a discussion among who's more skilled, a great novelist or Hideo Kojima. Kojima had to play under his own rules - his is a series about a spy which takes down an huge robot tank. He probably isn't match for Kawabata.

Of course, it's a nice switch from RE4 to Kawabata.

The lines you're quoting from MGS2 aren't very revealing and they don't move the story along.

They don't have to. They're moving, not revealing. They help the player sympathize with a character like Emma. You can argue Kawabata might have written this better - of course RE4 isn't even trying. You won't have Leon comment on Ashley's lacquered chopsticks. He's just the cliché hero, she is just the cliché daughter of the president, and the player just wants to end the current stage and blow up stuff. The difference is between someone playing MGS2 to make treasure of meaningful moments such as that, and people who aren't interested in this kind of stuff to begin with.

[Ed Oscuro]

As I said, to each his own - just don't try to pass everything in RE4 as a satire of the genre (it isn't; it's just being honestly what it is - a badly written action flick) nor me for someone who can't appreciate its finesse for some language barrier.

Well, this shows that you didn't read my post. I said that much of RE4's dialogue is a device to provide unobtrusive bursts of context.

Some of the other lines you've posted are clearly satire, and pretty funny if you take them that way.

MGS2's writers had their heads so far up their asses it's hard to tell whether they're being funny because they're serious or satirical or what. It's like seeing a crashed clown car; you have to laugh because it strikes you as funny even though you know they were just carpooling.

RE4 was terrbibly broken story-wise. It introduced cliché and forgettable characters like the blondie Ashley - the most intriguing thing you can do with her is trying to see under her skirt. It had a set of bad assorted villains, one more ridiculous than the other, end all of them dangerously out of touch with the spirit of an horror setting. The only character which, while still being a stereotype for the most part, turned out pretty good was Luis De Silva (read: Depp), and the scenario writers were so incredibly dumb to get rid of him early in the game. As I said, awesome controls, awesome rollercoaster of a game, but the cheesiest plot out there. A Bruce Lee flick has the pathos of a Shakespeare's play in comparison. Heck, a Walker Texas Ranger episode is probably better.

MGS2 was terribly broken story-wise. It introduced cliche characters like your rubbish handler who spends her time being useless and PMSing on you - the most interesting thing you can do with her is close out the codec. You can't play as her, you don't have sequences mixing up the gameplay where you have to tag along with anybody (as I remember), and your friends turn out to be robots anyway. HAL 9000 is on the phone?! HOW INTERESTING.

The only character which, while still being a stereotype for the most part, was...jeez, I can't tell. Token black guy, stereotypical gay vampire, the enemy soldier who pisses on Raiden...hmm.

MGS2's structure makes it obvious that the whole thing is a gag to cover for the fact that Hideo couldn't come up with a more elegant way to say "gee, it's hard to be certain about things in the digital age." So he parades one improbable scene after another before your eyes - my favorite is the idea that you can have Big Shell and pitched battles that nobody notices, and that a central authority would be stupid enough to try to clamp down on the control of information.

The difference here is that RE4 only goes "oh look, maybe there COULD be parasites and Alien ripoff monsters and stuff...but you don't have to believe it." To get to MGS2's points you first have to realize that the game is showing impossibilities, and most people aren't getting that. As a result, the conversation about MGS2 is failed for the most part because people see only the spirit and not the hidden (and meager) substance.

See, that's something that you have to understand. It doesn't matter if Hideo has profound things to say (and even that's up for debate, given that all that's in MGS2 has been discussed elsewhere to better effect) because the format seems intended to drive you mad and drive the curious away.

[Turrican]

I don't see your point. There will be always a majority of people who enjoy to watch "Armageddon" and a minority who enjoy "Mulholland Drive". The fact that curious are driven away and people like you are getting mad does not alter by one bit the nature of the two different approaches to narrative.

Also:

"You don't read my posts..."

"That's something you have to learn..."

Come on, am I discussing with Ed Oscuro, or Recap has stolen your account password?

[Ed Oscuro]

The lines you're quoting from MGS2 aren't very revealing and they don't move the story along.

They don't have to. They're moving, not revealing.

Moving dialogue has to reveal something about its characters. We are supposed to be more sophisticated than to take "emotion" at face value without looking for the context.

(I'm ignoring the fact that the main emotion it stirs is one of severe irritation.)

In Hideo's defense, I think that he's attempting to show how easily people are manipulated if putting a crying face in front of them makes them feel sympathetic. You've been played.

We can go further in a discussion among who's more skilled, a great novelist or Hideo Kojima. Kojima had to play under his own rules - his is a series about a spy which takes down an huge robot tank. He probably isn't match for Kawabata.

If you would give up the medium of science fiction as doomed to mediocrity then I think it highly ironic that you would lecture me about its 'superior' qualities at all.

The fact is, there are things in today's world that merit discussion as much as did (if not more than) Kawabata's impressions-only discussion of Tokyo, and they can be done, perhaps astonishingly, without invoking horrible cliches.

If MGS2 was an attempt to throw modern mediocrity into the blender without regard for the results, then it's a success. Of course, you get out much the same as you put in.

The fact that curious are driven away and people like you are getting mad does not alter by one bit the nature of the two different approaches to narrative.

Narrative without regard for comprehension isn't furthering a dialogue, but talking at a wall.

The fact is that most people either are driven away from MGS2 or take away scattered bits and pieces of rubbish that they could've gleaned from the front pages of half a dozen daily papers. It's revealing that Hideo thought people should've paid for the privilege of having it regurgitated wholesale back at them.

I also don't see why I should thank you for having immediately set a negative tone with your first churlish and dismissive post, nor for using the pile-on approach to debating and throwing out points you don't even care to defend.

[Turrican]

Moving dialogue has to reveal something about its characters. We are supposed to be more sophisticated than to take "emotion" at face value without looking for the context.

Don't be dense. Of course the passage is revealing - in the sense that you learn about Emma. You learn she kept a bird, as one of the few creatures she could speak to. You learn she's confident and witty when she wants to be... You were using "revealing" in the sense of "plot going on" before.

If you would give up the medium of science fiction as doomed to mediocrity then I think it highly ironic that you would lecture me about its 'superior' qualities at all.

I wouldn't say that, and besides, MGS2 is only partly sci-fi. Of course as a text, I'd group MGS2 along The Scarlet Gang of Asakusa, before grouping it with Walker Texas Ranger or RE4.

[Turrican]

Narrative without regard for comprehension isn't furthering a dialogue, but talking at a wall.

The fact is that most people either are driven away from MGS2 or take away scattered bits and pieces of rubbish that they could've gleaned from the front pages of half a dozen daily papers. It's revealing that Hideo thought people should've paid for the privilege of having it regurgitated wholesale back at them.

I also don't see why I should thank you for having immediately set a negative tone with your first churlish and dismissive post, nor for using the pile-on approach to debating and throwing out points you don't even care to defend.

Most people are driven away from MGS2: so what? I could say the same from Oshii's cinema. Most people found unbearable Innocence, lengthy and convoluted. I still don't see what's the problem. Are you saying that every author should lower his narrative in order to broaden his audience?

Also, when I want an opinion on Battle Garegga, I don't exactly turn to GameFAQs boards. I come here. Try to visit places like Junker HQ and you'll see the opinion on Sons of Liberty is very different from the cliché opinion you seem to have about its reception.

Finally, you say I don't care to defend my points but I think I answered precisely, and politely.

[Ed Oscuro]

Moving dialogue has to reveal something about its characters. We are supposed to be more sophisticated than to take "emotion" at face value without looking for the context.

Don't be dense. Of course the passage is revealing - in the sense that you learn about Emma. You learn she kept a bird, as one of the few creatures she could speak to. You learn she's confident and witty when she wants to be...

Wow, she has a bird! Let me try my hand at this:

Raiden: Hey Ed...it's not your fault. If it wasn't for the terrorists...
Ed: Yeah, you're right... Well... I think that's about all I know.
Raiden: Right... uh, thanks. I think we'd better head for the Computer Room because plot points are to be had there.
Ed: Did you ever watch The Negotiator, Raiden?
Raiden: 1998 action flick with Sam Jackson?
Ed: Right, that's the one. There is a computer there, looks like a Mac, and somehow this insurance fraudster can just press keys and view all these encrypted files.
Raiden: And? I'm kinda busy here.
Ed: Right. All modern fiction needs a computer system to keep things going; it's just the new version of Hitchcock's McGuffin.
Raiden: I need to get going.
Ed: Do you like Westerns, Raiden?
Raiden: Why are you continuing this discussion?
Ed: I'm sorry... I was lonely. Computers are bad conversation partners and they tend to start going insane.
Raiden: Well, I'm sorry for that.
Ed: Westerns, though. I like the ones where the hero dies in the end. Don't you, Raiden?
Raiden: ...
*Ed shoots Raiden in the eye*

You were using "revealing" in the sense of "plot going on" before.

Yes. I changed the meaning because I was making an additional point. The moderator says it's allowed.

If you would give up the medium of science fiction as doomed to mediocrity then I think it highly ironic that you would lecture me about its 'superior' qualities at all.

I wouldn't say that

But you did. You said that since it has giant robots and spies that it can't be good. I know I'm not putting words in your mouth.

and besides, MGS2 is only partly sci-fi. Of course as a text, I'd group MGS2 along The Scarlet Gang of Asakusa, before grouping it with Walker Texas Ranger or RE4.

Sure, in the sense that it attempts to convey the same sort of revealing dialogue as Scarlet Gang, except it fails miserably. RE4 never pretended to be that sort of thing, but calling it Walker: Texas Ranger material is missing the point that there are some relatively subtle plot development techniques that you just won't admit are being used because you think stubborn refusal to face facts makes for an engaging debate. A++

Anyway, I won't petulantly demand that you stop being respectful or stop tossing out throwaway arguments or whatever. If you like MGS2, that's your business, but as a writer I CAN point out that it's a gigantic farce and unfortunately not a very well-done one at that. It's a joke made at the expense of the games-playing public, and despite being aimed squarely over their heads it doesn't merit much discussion.

Are you saying that every author should lower his narrative in order to broaden his audience?

That's you missing the point. I've made a pretty detailed argument here, unfortunately splintered due to the nature of online discussion, but to sum it up:

MGS2 tackles issues such as privacy, the impossibility of knowing, and control in the digital age.

The plot structure and events are nonsensical apparently on purpose so that the player gets a sense of the disjointed effect of such a state of affairs on one person's worldview and sense of context.

So far, so good.

However, MGS2 uses mostly trite and utterly uninteresting dialogue. The characters are flat and suck (RE4's characters are also flat but that's more to a scrupulous adherence to entertaining techniques).

The idea of using a narrative structure that shrugs off reality is interesting, but not effective for producing an enlightened debate on issues of substance. It isn't Hideo's fault that Time magazine (I think it was) called him one of the most influential and promising people of the decade. If he wants to buck the responsibility of promoting serious issues, that's up to him, but nobody should be required to pay accolades to him for having one good idea and poor execution.

[Turrican]

If you would give up the medium of science fiction as doomed to mediocrity then I think it highly ironic that you would lecture me about its 'superior' qualities at all.

I wouldn't say that

But you did. You said that since it has giant robots and spies that it can't be good. I know I'm not putting words in your mouth.

No, It can be good. And it has been for me. Just the change of perspective in a series that starts with some soldier taking down nuclear tanks and arrives to the point of Sons of Liberty was a groundbreaking accomplishment. The equivalent of having Alan Moore playing with stereotype superhero Miracleman in his renowned cycle.

Sure, in the sense that it attempts to convey the same sort of revealing dialogue as Scarlet Gang, except it fails miserably. RE4 never pretended to be that sort of thing, but calling it Walker: Texas Ranger material is missing the point that there are some relatively subtle plot development techniques that you just won't admit

You say it fails miserably - you've been saying it for pages. I beg to disagree. Where else can I read your works out of the Contra HQ? Not that being a writer does add much more weight to your opinion, mind you: even the most respected authors have their tastes and idiosyncrasies. But it would be interesting nonetheless to read something from you.

About RE4 having relatively subtle plot development techniques - maybe. But plot development wasn't my main point. I was mainly talking about characterization and dialogues, and RE4 falls flat. You say it's a satire. Fine, let's take it as a satire on the action genre. That would make it, instead of Walker Texas Ranger, something like Big Trouble in Little China or Army of Darkness, I presume. That's a little better - the kind of witty popcorn movie you don't ask your money back once you've seen it. But that's all. Its limits are all too evident, and you underlined them more than once.

So far, so good.

However, MGS2 uses mostly trite and utterly uninteresting dialogue. The characters are flat and suck (RE4's characters are also flat but that's more to a scrupulous adherence to entertaining techniques).

So far, so good. Except that I found many of the dialogues interesting and many of the characters vivid and with personality. I'm not referring to the bosses you like to mention (black guy, vampire, laugh and grow fat...) - I think that characters like Olga, Emma and even the minor ones like Gurlukovich were pretty good. And of course Rose, which is a tremendous character for being someone you just get to know via codec sequences. Truly admirable work on her.

RE4 characters aren't flat because they adhere to entertainment. They are flat because they're unrealistically thrown into a crazy scenario that changes every five minutes (dungeon, swamp, gothic castle, secret lab) which is built by people accustomed to videogames logic (stage 1: Ice cave. Stage 2: dracula's castle) rather than narrative flow.

[Skykid]

Guys relax.

Ed is actually right on this one. Turrican, you won't concede and that's your call man, but that MGS2 excerpt was a fine example of the dirge that ruined much of the dialogue in the game. You have to consider the scenario that the player is in, the urgency of the mission, before accepting that useless romantic banter about parakeets and a history lesson on miners is completely irrelevant.
For someone with an obvious interest in decent cinema, you seem to be missing the very important lesson there.

RE4 was and is a classic - Leon Kennedy had lines that didn't only fit the tone of the game perfectly (I mean, it's zombie horror, man), but also brought a smile on many an occasion.

I loved that red dress crack, it was awesome.

Now, there's a ton of questions in there for me so:

For Prometheus and PC Engine Dude (your payment went out today btw mate, I'll be PM'ing you the tracking info) I believe that regardless of any update, you'd be very, very kind to a company with Sony's muscle to accept that the PS3 controller was the best they could muster.
You're gamers, you understand the importance of controllers in furthering a generation of games - this has been apparent since the Super Nintendo really made the point.
Sony may not have been able to conjour up anything that they considered better than their existing design (and thank god they scrapped the silver boomerang), but still, it's a very poor display from the then kings of the gaming world.

I take the point about PC gaming, but I really don't think it bears relevance to the points I've raised regarding console gaming, which rely heavily on their interfaces, and have far more software to contend with.

Now, Strider and everyone else: MGS4 is improving. I'm now toward the end of Act 2, and bar some seriously dodgy dialogue, the pacing of the game is much improved over the PS2 games, and the re-worked control setup is definitely helping. However the stealth elements have been made partly null and void, because often you can clear an area by opening fire once you've been caught out. And owing to the FPS style controls, this is often a lot more fun for the impatient player. The game is made very easy (so far) because of it though.

Still, I'm enjoying where its going - loading and installations are retarded and still too many cutscenes, but I'm slowly becoming engrossed. Already the best since MGS1 (PSX).

And finally, I had to say I was thinking about how god awful MGS2 was as a game, but I had to recall some of Hideo's finest contributions to directing came in the form of the opening of that game. When Snake is smoking in the rain on the bridge, the lights from the cars and the opening credits rolling - all of that is awesome. When he flips over the side and bungees down, the music rising, I get shivers down my spine every single time. Absolutely top notch, and respect to him for that.

Everything else in that game is a train wreck unfortunately, but that's my show of support for Hideo. I haven't seen anything close to how cool that was in Snake Eater or MGS4 (so far.)

[Turrican]

Guys relax.

Ed is actually right on this one. Turrican, you won't concede and that's your call man, but that MGS2 excerpt was a fine example of the dirge that ruined much of the dialogue in the game. You have to consider the scenario that the player is in, the urgency of the mission, before accepting that useless romantic banter about parakeets and a history lesson on miners is completely irrelevant.
For someone with an obvious interest in decent cinema, you seem to be missing the very important lesson there.

Fine, your stance was clear since the beginning and I won't dispute with you too. But I still want to add a comment to this.

You say the long dialogues are in conflict with the urgency of the mission - but when you descend in arsenal colon, you don't believe the mission anymore - you know you have been played all along, and you can't distinguish anymore which is true and false. In order to reach this effect, that narrative was necessary. Also, the Big Shell isn't designed to instill a sense of urgency - you have 24 hours iirc, which is pretty much a timeframe used by Matsuno to tell the whole Vagrant Story.

I claim that a relaxed bit was significant - when you rescue, Emma, for example. You've known of her role not too long ago, and in a matter of minutes, her death is supposed to move you. In order to do that, you have to develop the character a bit.


It's cool that you all loved the "horror flick" RE4, although I really thought that while the gameplay was brilliant, the atmosphere killed the Resident Evil franchise. No wonder they've set the next one to Africa - once you go over the top, you have no other choice to continue the escalation, and yet I'm sure more than a few guys would only want a comeback to the mansion and Raccon city...

[gavin19]

Are there any games with an engaging adult narrative, not trying to be 'funny' all the time, just interesting/mature?

I can't honestly recall one at all. Maybe I'm playing the wrong games, or maybe games are just the wrong medium?

[Ed Oscuro]

you know you have been played all along

I could've told Raiden that when he decided to pay $60 for a copy of MGS2 :D

In any case, it's fairly obvious your stance basically boils down to individual preference, which I don't mind except when we start saying that something is objectively better than something else when it's not.

There's no denying that MGS2 is one of the great gaming experiments, but for something to really be considered "good" it needs to be...good, as in polish and all the other things that make fiction gel. There's lots of interesting failures out there, and MGS2 is, in my view, one of them.

Apologies if it seemed like I was calling MGS2 the worst thing ever; I've had discussions about the game before and it also doesn't help that I'm not especially intrigued by the gameplay at this stage. After MGS on PSX the style of gameplay lost a lot of its luster; gimme Thief or Tenchu, the lesser-known action games released about the same time as the original, on mainly gameplay merits alone.

No wonder they've set the next one to Africa - once you go over the top, you have no other choice to continue the escalation,

A point I made in PC-Engine Fan X's Blade Runner AFI thread.

Is there any mystery why MGS3 was set in the past? You've answered this one quite nicely in that post. After MGS2, things were so neatly wrecked that all they could do was retreat into the storied past for a while and try to sort things out with more context.

Are there any games with an engaging adult narrative, not trying to be 'funny' all the time, just interesting/mature?

I can't honestly recall one at all. Maybe I'm playing the wrong games, or maybe games are just the wrong medium?

I thought Killer7 was silly and farcical, but it was more honest about it than MGS2 was. In other words, silly in a good way.

I think the issue is that people look at this postmodern/farcical stuff and say "that's not very mature." I pulled out Snow Crash yesterday, and then heard them talking about leasing the nation's highways on NPR, in particular the Pennsylvania Turnpike for 75 years. See, you read Snow Crash and it's easy to be offended by the broad strokes and lack of quarter the author gives everybody. Everything is skewered, from Feds to the Mafia to skate punks. Yet everything is meant to chip away at some essential truth about today's world (the world of the early 90s, anyway) and when we see its ideas reflected in the modern world it causes a strangely calming sense of recognition.

[Turrican]

In any case, it's fairly obvious your stance basically boils down to individual preference, which I don't mind except when we start saying that something is objectively better than something else when it's not.

MGS2 is objectively better than RE4 in: direction, characters development, use of lip sync, use of spatial sounds, coherence of the gaming environments. Plus, it was objectively a massive technical bomb in 2001, moreso than RE4 in 2004. I also prefer its plot, but I'll leave that out of the objective field. (whatever defines objective...)

Is there any mystery why MGS3 was set in the past? You've answered this one quite nicely in that post. After MGS2, things were so neatly wrecked that all they could do was retreat into the storied past for a while and try to sort things out with more context.

Once one has succeeded in saying what one has to say, there's nothing wrong in getting back to the realm of pure entertainment fiction and deliver a massive game like Snake Eater. If more people are able to enjoy it due to the less controversial message and the more straight narrative, it's all good.

Edit: don't need to apologize, you didn't sound like MGS2 was the worst thing ever. I think it says a lot that you don't like the gameplay of the game.

Glad to hear you like Killer 7. It was good fun. I liked that one better than RE4 at least.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'm aware that I don't like the gameplay all that much. I just wrote and deleted a bunch of stuff explaining it, but in short, I mention it to keep myself honest, and you should do the same and not try to pile on unrelated arguments that I already made sure not to let affect my take of the whole situation.

Piling on arguments without regard for backing them up? Hey, look, I can do it too:

"Castlevania N64 is objectively better than Ninja Gaiden for Xbox in: direction, characters development [?], use of low-poly graphics capability to effectively render pointy chins, advanced use of MIDI and cartridge capabilities, continuity with the plotline of previous games, and coherence of the gaming environments. Plus, it was objectively a massive technical bomb in 1999, which in English means it didn't perform very well; neither did the follow-up, especially under high-res mode."

If you don't know what objective means (why would anybody even write such a thing? Of course you do), then you shouldn't be using the word. I'm not trying to be like my friend IcyClam here; it's just, er, obviously true.

BACK ON TOPIC:

I was limiting myself to a discussion of the rhetorical devices, the plotline, and the quality of the dialogue because I'm not an anti-MGS2 fan who will stop at nothing to tear down the game.

Please take a moment to reflect and consider what it is that drives you to drag in unrelated subjects not being discussed to defend your baby.

Obviously MGS2 was quite an achievement for 2001, although I recall the alarm most people felt at Snake being cut out of the game in a clear "fuck you" to the gaming community at large after he featured so prominently in what was the biggest media release, the "snake's on a tanker" video used to promote the game.

Edit: don't need to apologize, you didn't sound like MGS2 was the worst thing ever. I think it says a lot that you don't like the gameplay of the game.

Another old Gestapo trick; say one thing first and then follow it with another thing that means exactly the opposite. I'm sure that's not your intention, but, oh man.

[Turrican]

You make sound my post a lot more sour that it was intended to be... I didn't pile up arguments without backing them, I think that those things I mentioned do add to narrative coherence. The fact that the Big Shell is a lot more plausible (!) place than RE4's rollercoaster backgrounds does add credibility to things such as the plotline. Mine was a reply to your sentence about MGS2's lack of polish, I just didn't quote your exact phrase but I thought it would be self-explanatory.

I meant to write "objectively" and yes, you're trying a bit too hard to emulate Icy, especially after I warned you I'm not native speaking.

Finally, even the Gestapo trick had no mean intention, really - I really believe that how much one enjoys the actual gameplay of a game, that will have some influence on his perception of the story. If you're bored by the game and just rush to it for the sake of saying "I've completed it" of course you won't pay attention to details and such.