Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu [Cave 2008]

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:12 pm

Stan wrote:
zakk wrote:
CStarFlare wrote: That said, if you can get a 20k chain on 2-5 you might kind of deserve the counterstop.

Since I wasn't really around for DOJ, did anyone ever chain 2-5 in that?
The A-Type player on the latest DVD chains it, 3485 hit count.
what dvd?

http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-7x- ... -2frs.html

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:22 am

moozooh wrote:So it means we can't discuss it?

It means people should stop moaning about the deficiencies. We live in an age where time is money, and not everything is ironed out in time. As SuperPang pointed out, it's being fixed/updated for free.

The most hilarical thing to me is that most people [on the internet in general, not just this thread] doing the moaning know fuck all about how technical industries and how they work... yet everyone seems to think they can do a better job.

If people want to bitch at Cave, they should bitch about the problems they do have: the perverted mouse pads and fuck-pillow covers.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:11 am

Fenrir wrote:I really prefer a thread where people critically expose a fault of the game mechanics with a depth no one could really achieve (I bet you find a similar thread about a shmups in non-smups related boards) rather than a bunch of pages with people saying omg this is good omg excellent omg great game omg I've ordered it omg have you seen the marquee in the complete kit omg teh boobs, look at teh boobs... and so on.

I had to read a few pages to convince myself this wasn't being considered for worst game of our time, the game that will kill Cave, etc.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:36 am

GaijinPunch wrote:It means people should stop moaning about the deficiencies. We live in an age where time is money, and not everything is ironed out in time. As SuperPang pointed out, it's being fixed/updated for free.

If they ran out of time and shoved it out the door half-baked, that is something worth noting .. not "Oh well, we forgive you because you're Cave". Fixing it for free is nice, though

GaijinPunch wrote:The most hilarical thing to me is that most people [on the internet in general, not just this thread] doing the moaning know fuck all about how technical industries and how they work... yet everyone seems to think they can do a better job.

Knowing how to make a game is not a prerequisite for critisism. This is as bad as the weenies on Deviantart blubbering, "You can't do any better so stop whining!". It does not hold up .. sorry.

GaijinPunch wrote:If people want to bitch at Cave, they should bitch about the problems they do have: the perverted mouse pads and fuck-pillow covers.

They are trying to make more money. They're not making those cheesy dating games to fulfill some deep artistic vision either ..

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:59 am

If they ran out of time and shoved it out the door half-baked,

It was on a slower schedule than any of their "Spring time games", giving them an extra month to iron out fixes. Some problems won't show up with all the time in the world (in house). Apparently nobody gets this.

Knowing how to make a game is not a prerequisite for critisism. This is as bad as the weenies on Deviantart blubbering, "You can't do any better so stop whining!". It does not hold up .. sorry.

It is when starting a sentence with the following:
-They should do this...
-They should do that...
-If they would have done this...

Spend some time searching for Ketsui in these forums and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:59 am

Udderdude wrote:Knowing how to make a game is not a prerequisite for critisism. This is as bad as the weenies on Deviantart blubbering, "You can't do any better so stop whining!". It does not hold up .. sorry.

When you look at a picture on DA you see everything that you can. The only inobvious elements are the production process limitations, i.e. the thickness of pencil leads, scanner resolution, software available to the artist. But what you see is all there is.

What GP's talking about is more akin to people on Digital Press who like to jump on and say "oh this business decision is going to kill (unfavored company X) and become armchair analysts without much knowledge of what goes into the system.

What GP means is that some people say "oh look I have here a plan that would have made things go better." Hindsight is 20/20, except that we don't know all the bugs and such they ironed out.

Now, I'll admit that my mind also is filled with "what if" scenarios and questions about how they managed not to notice the chaining. A whole number of innocent reasons could be to blame, from a twisted production timeline making the game mechanics break previously planned work, to an overconfident game tester, to simple negligence to make a simple test, or an error in any one of these stages...we won't know and it doesn't really matter now, does it?

I don't think this is really a bad example of it, since the "why didn't they make the ship invincible / plot out the chain" seems logical enough. But I think GP's point still stands; there was apparently something clouding the issue. That, or they fouled up, oh well :D

~$0.009

Edit: lol @ me explaining other people's posts. Pretty sure I'm on track though.

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:30 am

The leverage Cave get on these forums are incredible. Fanboys...

Not that it is hard to understand but I wish other companies got the same treatment.

clp · Post by **clp** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:14 am

320x240 wrote:The leverage Cave get on these forums are incredible. Fanboys...

Not that it is hard to understand but I wish other companies got the same treatment.

yeh i agree , but usually other companies just get picked to pieces and have all the faults of there games pointed out whereas no matter what cave put out its seen as great before its even been played .

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:21 am

Am I a Cave fanboy?

I mean, let's get some perspective here, it's just one bug that next to nobody is going to see. Following high-level play is a big draw, but it's not everything and fixating on it can be destructive (like this thread, per my first comment - while the comments may all be spot-on individually there's this critical mass of whining that makes newcomers to the thread wonder what gave this game rabies or cancer)

clp wrote:
320x240 wrote:The leverage Cave get on these forums are incredible. Fanboys...

Not that it is hard to understand but I wish other companies got the same treatment.
yeh i agree , but usually other companies just get picked to pieces and have all the faults of there games pointed out whereas no matter what cave put out its seen as great before its even been played .

Treasure games took the top two spots this year.

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:30 am

Ed Oscuro wrote:
Fenrir wrote:I really prefer a thread where people critically expose a fault of the game mechanics with a depth no one could really achieve (I bet you find a similar thread about a shmups in non-smups related boards) rather than a bunch of pages with people saying omg this is good omg excellent omg great game omg I've ordered it omg have you seen the marquee in the complete kit omg teh boobs, look at teh boobs... and so on.
I had to read a few pages to convince myself this wasn't being considered for worst game of our time, the game that will kill Cave, etc.

Don't worry, next DDP will have boobs

Anyway, when a star this big exploits such a fault, it is very interesting (and refreshing) to talk about it. Fanboys take it a bit too far, but you know, meh.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:35 am

screw boobs, I need Chitta.

I...NEED.

Well, those aren't the same thing, you know. You can't see much under that Sypha cloak after all.

On-topic, sure, if it floats your boat. Myself, I don't see what's so refreshing about what is an evergreen topic around here; game has a balance problem, we're gonna hear about it, nothing new there

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:53 am

clp wrote:no matter what cave put out its seen as great before its even been played .

The first raves about DFK (and most Cave games) were based on videos of people playing it... (some of them members of this forum). There was plenty of negative to go with it. Nice try though.

nem · Post by **nem** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:06 am

Wow, the Cave defense squad, never knew I would see the day when there would be a need for you guys. Have you guys bought stocks in the company or is there another reason why you're so up in arms over the ordeal? If this was any other shmup dev, everyone would agree on that they put out a buggy first release and move on. Cave shouldn't be an exception.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the balance adjustments are. It should put to rest the arguments over if the safe spot and the OTT power & bomb balance were intentional.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:30 am

I don't like Cave. Dark and damp and mold grows there. Who said that I do? Just pointing out the trend of this discussion is all.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:42 pm

Just for the record, I am a huge Cave fan, they are the biggest influence on my own shmups. But I call it like I see it.

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:58 pm

counterstop or not...even if i do eventually get to play this there is no chance
in hell that i will ever score even close to that....and id be willing to bet that this would be the case for a lot of us.....

and this 'safespot'...its on the last boss right?

unless i credit-feed it im not gonna see that any time soon either

just trying to get a grasp on this

it seems like kind of a non-issue to 90% of players tho as its never gonna affect our game play

just my 2 cents...dont blast me too hard....lolz

ps...i love cave too....

overkill55 · Post by **overkill55** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:12 pm

GaijinPunch wrote:If people want to bitch at Cave, they should bitch about the problems they do have: the perverted mouse pads and fuck-pillow covers.

Fuck-pillow covers made me lol so hard

orange · Post by **orange** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:56 pm

because there's so many other shmup devs to be a fanboy of right guys

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:42 pm

I wish Taito would make a Tiat Young bodypillow.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:53 pm

Someone has no-missed Hibachi.

Torrent here.

Two bombs, two hypers. You'll be amazed by how cheap the fight is most of the time; there are but two significant chokepoints dodged through magnificiently, the rest was bombed, hypered, or evaded through safe spots (yes, spots — more than one).

I wonder if Cave has considered this in 1.5!

[EDIT]
YouTube version.

Ruldra · Post by **Ruldra** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:09 am

Holy crap, that's lame. So much for the toughest TLB ever.

What amazes me the most is how quickly this game got destroyed. Seriously, a counterstop and a no-miss Hibachi one month after release?

Well, at least ver. 1.5 is coming. Let's see how things will turn out.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:49 am

Cave's recent games have all been easier than their old style. ESPGaluda II was the last really challenging game w/ no easy gimmick added in, and even that wasn't their hardest.

I'm convinced the Hibachi safe spots aren't oversights. They probably want to see a Power Style no miss for a DVD run. This is just a hunch.

EOJ · Post by **EOJ** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:47 am

GaijinPunch wrote:Cave's recent games have all been easier than their old style. ESPGaluda II was the last really challenging game w/ no easy gimmick added in, and even that wasn't their hardest.

Pink Sweets came after Galuda 2, and it's definitely more difficult.

Miher · Post by **Miher** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:12 am

320x240 wrote:The leverage Cave get on these forums are incredible. Fanboys...

Yeah, I agree. Didn't some Cave guy get mad at one of the well-known English shmup sites for posting fucking pictures of him or something, and basically tell his foreign fans to fuck off? Why should that merit any respect?

Fuck them, and especially fuck spending thousands of dollars on one game that most likely will get a future revision because of its problems.

I do love Cave's games, but seriously.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:10 am

EOJ wrote:
GaijinPunch wrote:Cave's recent games have all been easier than their old style. ESPGaluda II was the last really challenging game w/ no easy gimmick added in, and even that wasn't their hardest.

Pink Sweets came after Galuda 2, and it's definitely more difficult.

Non IKD then. I considering MMP to be the oddball Yagawa game w/ it's ease (but maybe it'll turn into the norm). The Yagawa games usually aren't gawked at pre-release either. Not to the same extent as the danmaku, anyway.

Didn't some Cave guy get mad at one of the well-known English shmup sites for posting fucking pictures of him or something, and basically tell his foreign fans to fuck off? Why should that merit any respect?

Fuck them, and especially fuck spending thousands of dollars on one game that most likely will get a future revision because of its problems.

Fuck No Fuck...
But it all serious, Fuck no.

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:31 am

moozooh wrote:Someone has no-missed Hibachi.

Torrent here.

Two bombs, two hypers. You'll be amazed by how cheap the fight is most of the time; there are but two significant chokepoints dodged through magnificiently, the rest was bombed, hypered, or evaded through safe spots (yes, spots — more than one).

I wonder if Cave has considered this in 1.5!

[EDIT]
YouTube version.

Maybe it's just me. But I don't understand the second part of the boss, maybe because of youtube's quality. "Hugging" the boss is a safe spot? Can it be?

SuperPang · Post by **SuperPang** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:36 am

Miher wrote: Yeah, I agree. Didn't some Cave guy get mad at one of the well-known English shmup sites for posting fucking pictures of him or something, and basically tell his foreign fans to fuck off? Why should that merit any respect?.

LOL, erm, no. A slightly confused guy who works for a completely different company made a sly comment on his blog about a gaijin site using a quirky photo of IKD he took once.

A great example of how everything Cave gets blown out of all proportion on this forum right there.

Seriously though, its only because they're the only dev worth giving a crap about isn't it.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:23 am

Fenrir wrote:"Hugging" the boss is a safe spot? Can it be?

Basically, there's a spot Hibachi "generates" bullets from. But they appear not in the dead center, but within a certain radius from it. If that bullet generation spot has its radius unoccupied by the boss's own hitbox, you can stay there and be considerably safer than otherwise, as demonstrated. Similar exploits take place in certain Touhou games.

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:36 am

Fenrir wrote:Maybe it's just me. But I don't understand the second part of the boss, maybe because of youtube's quality. "Hugging" the boss is a safe spot? Can it be?

I think you've been confused by all the pillow talk

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the last boss of Cave's next game is a huge pillow.

gamingjustin · Post by **gamingjustin** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:57 am

It reminds me off the boss tricks in R-Type. Perhaps this is all just a throwback to the good ole days (heh heh... not really)... It must've felt rewarding to figure out the dead spot on the final boss there, but now that it's been done it'll be nothing more than routine for that player, and no one else can feel that same "yeehaw first discovery" satisfaction as it's been done before. That's pretty much the problem with all "tricks" in shooters as far as I can tell.

I've only seen a few videos of this game, but from all the talk here this latest Dodonpachi doesn't seem very flexible. Sure, you can play it however you want but there's always that glaring "best way" lingering in the back of your mind. Seems like the developers were just waiting for a top player to solve the puzzle then "ok, its version 1.5 time!"