the exponential scoring system thumbs down thread

orange · Post by **orange** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:10 pm

this thread is about exponential scoring systems and how they're dumb!

so let's talk about games with good non-exponential scoring systems!

sup garegga

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:36 pm

Lol medal chaining

ARCADIA · Post by **ARCADIA** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Sky Adventure is a good example?

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:47 pm

Cleopatra Fortune

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:14 am

Zebra Airforce wrote:Cleopatra Fortune

Most extreme example.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:27 am

Beware exponential scoring systems, for in them lies the devil. And counterstops.

(XOP has no exponential scoring

)

jonny5 · Post by **jonny5** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:33 am

but its chuck full of ass rape-ery.....lolz

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:04 am

what about an exponential scoring system for the top 25?

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:41 am

arcade Contra end of game bonuses

also Gothic III, E-SWAT, and Pac-Land

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:16 am

Udderdude wrote:Beware exponential scoring systems, for in them lies the devil. And counterstops.

counterstops = the devil

gameoverDude · Post by **gameoverDude** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:27 pm

Mercs isn't too hard to counterstop on the arcade version. If you leech a lot in stage 1 (and can take the boss down fairly fast), you've got a good shot at finishing with 999,990+. The stage clear bonuses get HUGE as you go on through the game, so this is clearly an oversight on Capcom's part.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:27 pm

CIT wrote:
Zebra Airforce wrote:Cleopatra Fortune
Most extreme example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szTzS4wmJLg

Also: Super Mario World Counterstop in a single level. IT´S BROKEN!!!

antron · Post by **antron** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:29 pm

I want to see a mathematical proof that any scoring system is exponential and not just some power function

Post by **spadgy** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:55 am

antron wrote:I want to see a mathematical proof that any scoring system is exponential and not just some power function

Yeah - can somebody clarify the context of 'exponential' here? To me the term refers to something growing constantly larger at a multiplied rate, but I know mathmatically, but I know 'exponential' can refer to a mathematical entity such as a curve.

So are we talking about scoring systems where the rate of scoring increases through the game, or the scoring is rather ambiguously linked to the gameplay itself? Or something different from that!

An example of a typical exponential scoring system would be great for dimwits like myself!

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:32 pm

spadgy wrote:An example of a typical exponential scoring system would be great for dimwits like myself!

All Takumi games!

Also, DDP, though for a bit lesser extent. The main source of scoring is divided between two important factors:

1) the more bombs you pick up at full stock without dying or spending them, the more is your score multiplier (x2 for one bomb over the max, x8 for seven bombs); as you go through the game, you pick up more bombs;
2) a chain's value is growing at a typical exponent (like if you're killing three enemies that cost 100, 200, and 300 points respectively, the overall chain bonus will be 100+200+(100+200)+300+(100+200+300)=1500, and with 500+ hit chains this makes a great difference); and the deeper in the game you are, the larger the chains.

That's why survival is the key aspect of scoring in a game like DDP, since the first three stages combined cost less than 25% of the overall score of the first loop, even if done optimally.

antron · Post by **antron** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:40 pm

I was just being facetious.

They mean the rate of scoring grows with your score.

it is probably a power law:
Score = (# scored events)^x where x is some constant

exponential is:
Score = e^(# scored events) where e=2.71828183

Post by **spadgy** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:57 pm

antron wrote:I was just being facetious.

Well - maybe not fastidious, but the reason I quoted you was because you were getting at what I was thinking - 'exponential' did conjour up mathmatical stuff in my weak mind...

EDIT - and thanks Moozah - I know the DDP score mechanic OK, so now I know what you're all on about!

orange · Post by **orange** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:05 pm

my problem with exponentially increasing scores is that when i make a little bit of progress it doesn't seem like much

when i increase my score in something like garegga or batrider my progression is usually a steady increase, not to mention a death or two in a game like that doesn't necessarily mean "whoops there goes 1/2 your score" like in DDP or DOJ or

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:44 pm

To be honest, I also extremely dislike having the score mutilated by a single major mistake, but for some reason exponential scoring games seem more engaging for me. Probably because they usually don't require much milking compared to "linear scoring" games, or because high risk maneuvers are usually much more rewarding there compared to "play with death continuously for two minutes to have your score increased by less than 5%".

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:04 am

Exponential scoring games are MUCH more frustrating at higher level of play. When only 1 attemp out of 10 or so may lead to a descent score.

In a linear scoring system one small non-lethal mistake won't fuck up your whole run. You can still make up for it.

In that sense Gradius is much less anal than most Cave games. (even though people seem to complain so much more about Gradius)

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:12 am

I guess I don't like exponential scoring either. It's only fair for the score to increase a lot more later on when the game is much harder later on, which isn't such a good thing when you're doing a lot of runs as you'd want to have a decently hard beginning too. Or you'll be bored :[ Also, one little mistake definitely shouldn't be punished so hardly with a huge score drop, because if you've only done one or a few little mistakes, then you've already proved you were at least almost able to play perfectly : your score, as a skill rating, shouldn't be cut that much. Although it wouldn't be cool to reward a run that has mistakes in it almost as well as a perfect run either, because a perfect play does deserve those additional "style points" ;]

So yeah, screw DDP for that ^^;

orange · Post by **orange** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:20 am

also another thing is i hate constantly restarting

fuuuuuck

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:10 am

orange wrote:also another thing is i hate constantly restarting

fuuuuuck

no kidding, especially when the first stages are easy and boring. That's why I like short, hard games most like mushi/futari ultra.

Aru-san · Post by **Aru-san** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:18 pm

orange wrote:also another thing is i hate constantly restarting

fuuuuuck

(Constantly presses + and - everytime he screw up even the smallest aspect of Star Soldier R)

orange · Post by **orange** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:09 pm

Aru-san wrote:
orange wrote:also another thing is i hate constantly restarting

fuuuuuck
(Constantly presses + and - everytime he screw up even the smallest aspect of Star Soldier R)

oh believe me i know

it started with stage 1 in doj

then i got good at chaining it

then it turned into stage 2

i don't really play anymore