Ninja Gaiden 2

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:16 am

to late.... all ready at the air ship.... just gonna chug through this game going now. I'll be playing through this one alot.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:31 am

I'm trying to enjoy this game. Really, I am. But as hard as I try, the only thing I care about is the gameplay.. which is broken. Shurikens out of nowhere that you aren't going to be able to predict, cheap shots around every corner.. bosses that are terribly flawed. Ugh..

It seems like Itagaki has learned nothing from the mistakes he's made in the original game. There's a fair number of bosses in this, all of mostly which generally have gimmicks to them. Chapter 3 boss? Use arrows, because you can't attack a boss shrouded with electricity. Chapter 4 boss? Run circles around him and slash at his feet, and use arrows.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if I ended up walking into a boss in a few chapters time that was made out of ice, and can only be damaged by the Art of the Inferno Ninpo. That's how gimmicky the game presents itself as.

I bought No More Heroes for the Wii at the same time as this. So far, I've enjoyed NMH's style over NG2. NMH's not without errors, like the sickening camera repositioning method Suda 51 used, but.. well, NG2's combat is fun, but there's so much crap that surrounds it, it almost doesn't feel like it's worth it.

Especially obliteration techniques. I get it, they're the fatalities of the game, and they're also good for knowing, in your mind, that you're permanently eradicated an enemy. It ain't going to be ninja jumping back up on yo ass. But, while that's all very well and dandy, there's a high portion of the time where you can just do obliteration techniques even after you've cut their heads off. Okay, looks cool, but it's only for score and to show off. There doesn't seem to be any point to doing this post-death.

I guess I should throw a comment in about the camera angles as well. It's nothing new, but it's still a nuisance. Having enemies peck at you from around corners isn't anything new either, but.. whatever. Itagaki simply has not managed to better the camera angles by much of a margin over Black.

There's no doubt more flaws which I haven't covered and don't really care to cover. I've been playing on Warrior at the moment. The difficulty isn't the problem here, since I'm used to it and loved God Hand. But I'm just not getting the same feeling.

I'm not even sure if I'll bother continuing with this game.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:52 am

This game has score?

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:01 am

Yeah, it's called Karma. The more obliteration techniques you use against your fiends, the more points you will accumulate and that adds to your total Karma.

There's an option to enable it to display in-game Karma in the options menu.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:08 am

I see. So, is there a karma scoreboard? Does it reset when you die or anything like that?

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:17 am

I've died a dozen times now and it hasn't reset. I've been watching a few of the videos on the leaderboards (which is actually a pretty cool feature) and some of them are really good.

Unfortunately this game seems more enjoyable to watch.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:24 am

Sometimes it's difficult to see your own progress and it becomes really frustrating, especially compared to those who are ahead of you. I had the same problem with Umihara Kawase, but I ended up really enjoying it after spending a bit more time with it. Take it slow for a while and see if your opinion of the game improves. If there's one thing I hate it's sellers remorse.

DBH87 · Post by **DBH87** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:59 am

Im playing through Warrior again, Im on Chapter 6 with 10 million karma

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:50 pm

Unfortunately this game seems more enjoyable to watch.

you must not have beat black or/and you're playing on warrior.

I keep hearing folks wine about cheap shots. look... this game is like a fighting game, you have a huge list of moves ect. learn them and use them. if you don't, just like a fighter... if you play against those that do, expect to die.

you have 30 explosive throwing knives, 30 arrows.... both of wich can be UT'ed now and shot from a jump. and nija magic can be used ALOT in this sequal and you're meant to use it more.

you can also slice of limbs with weak slashes on normal/small enemies within the fist 3 slashes most the time then death is only a hard slash away.

what's you gamer tag? I can send you the ninja cinema stuff or you could do the same. this game is deep and requires mastery on warrior mode.... warrior is for vets. acolyte is for newbies..

what difficulty and stage are you at?

DBH87 · Post by **DBH87** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:55 pm

Strider77 wrote:
Unfortunately this game seems more enjoyable to watch.
you must not have beat black or/and you're playing on warrior.

I keep hearing folks wine about cheap shots. look... this game is like a fighting game, you have a huge list of moves ect. learn them and use them. if you don't, just like a fighter... if you play against those that do, expect to die.

you have 30 explosive throwing knives, 30 arrows.... both of wich can be UT'ed now and shot from a jump. and nija magic can be used ALOT in this sequal and you're meant to use it more.

you can also slice of limbs with weak slashes on normal/small enemies within the fist 3 slashes most the time then death is only a hard slash away.

what's you gamer tag? I can send you the ninja cinema stuff or you could do the same. this game is deep and requires mastery on warrior mode.... warrior is for vets. acolyte is for newbies..

what difficulty and stage are you at?

Have you completed it yet strider, what was your 1st playthrough karma score

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:39 am

I am trying to beat the last form of the last boss.... any advice on that?

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:26 am

Long version:

Strider77 wrote:this game is deep and requires mastery on warrior mode.... warrior is for vets. acolyte is for newbies..

If by "mastery" you mean learning which enemies do and don't have unblockable attacks, how to exploit them, what works and what doesn't. It's entirely trial and error with this game.

Sure, sounds good to players who haven't played the game yet, right? Not really, unless you're a glutton for punishment. The game delivers in this department, but this comes off as something I'd expect from the previous title.

I'm currently on Chapter 6 of Warrior and I've had enough. I can't play this game again. I've gone back to it on and off throughout the past 3 days and while it keeps drawing me back, I keep giving up in frustration. This game is horribly flawed, not only in the visual department but in the aesthetic department too. When the core gameplay is affected by tedious things such as enemies attacking you from around the corner, stacks of wolves being piled on a bridge which consist entirely of undodgable attacks which must be dodged (only to have one of them throw limbs at you.) it's where I draw the line.

The way I see it, money spent on this was money taken away from my next Cave PCB. Console gaming continues to draw me in with fancy graphics and big named titles, but any anticipation I end up holding for a game immediately gets shoved out the window when I realize it's simply not what I'm looking for.

It's bullshit. Complete bad game design bullshit. Even Ryu moves funny. I don't have full control over my character at all times which is a major flaw. Obliteration techniques, or "fatalities" as I'd like to call them, are fun for awhile but essentially you're just going to be doing them for score and to show off.

Every single boss has a gimmick to it which just annoys the hell out of me. Chapter 3's boss consists of shooting it in the face because you can't touch it. Chapter 5's boss consists of doing pretty much the exactly same thing, and god forbid if you run out of arrows. Chapter 4's boss has the "I'm charging up, kill me before I kill you" crap going for it.

I can't tolerate this game any longer. It's not just the difficulty which annoys me, it's the overall feel that I can't perform (certain attack) against (certain enemy) but rather I need to jump around like an idiot and peck away at them like a pussy.

Itagaki hasn't learned anything from the mistakes he's made with the original game, and he's proceeded to include them in his sequel as if to punish Tecmo deliberately. Even Sigma, which he disregarded as being "not good", was seemingly more enjoyable (I didn't own this, but my friend does).

So this is what buyers regret is like for Elixir in 2008. Last year, it was Blue Dragon. This year, it's Ninja Gaiden 2. I'm just glad I've gone through this process because it seems to happen in a yearly fashion. I won't be so hasty to purchase games based on (inaccurate) demos in the future.

Thankfully, I ordered this game from overseas, which was far cheaper than actually buying it in a store here. I'll be able to easily sell it again for above the cost I paid for it. I won't miss it.

Short version: I don't like this game.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:36 am

have you beat black or sigma? especially on hard?

if you haven't, I can see where you're coming from b/c you shouldn't be playing 2 on warrior yet.

some shots are cheap I guess.... but you are incredibly strong in this one. I can manage all the projectiles up the the end in ryu's village... I can manage for the most part but they get their licks in. but on my second play I a got shitty with my explosive darts also and got some good bow shots off.

dunno.... the last boss is the only thing that has stopped me in my tracks. the final form.

jp · Post by jp » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:58 am

I'm at the end of Warrior and I've gotten Master Ninja on every single level.

Never played Ninja Gaiden Black. And I only beat Ninja Gaiden once on Normal mode the week it came out.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:44 am

ok... I beat it. i just had to stay away and come back with a fresh mind. it wasn't as horrible as i thought. Still tough but I beat the last form without healing my 1st try.

my gamertag is StriderNC and Karma on my 1st play through is 10,084,150 (I went back and finished from my 1st save to be fair on 1st play karma scare ect).

DBH87 · Post by **DBH87** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:10 am

Strider77 wrote:ok... I beat it. i just had to stay away and come back with a fresh mind. it wasn't as horrible as i thought. Still tough but I beat the last form without healing my 1st try.

my gamertag is StriderNC and Karma on my 1st play through is 10,084,150 (I went back and finished from my 1st save to be fair on 1st play karma scare ect).

Dunno how i Managed 21 million on my 1st playthrough, yer the last form took me about 40 goes trying to do it on 1 life bar and no items, couldnt be bothered to go back and start the boss again so I just kept trying for the best and it paid off in the end.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:46 am

i mentioned earlier that my 1st game about 2 or 3 stages were acting up on my buddies console wich resulted in me flying swallow or just getting quick kills to get through the stages... was freezing to.

probably a partial reason for my lower karma maybe... i need to check what my second game is at so far...

either way... mission accomplished. now my new mission starts at midnight tonight with MGS4. awesome 2 past weeks.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:03 pm

It doesn't sound like you're approaching the game properly, Elixir. It's not Berserk. You can't just walk into a crowd and start swinging and expect not to get hit a shit load of times. That would be Dynasty Warriors syndrome and that would be a design flaw. I don't know what undodgeable attacks you are talking about with the werewolves, as I haven't come across any attack in the game that can't be blocked or dodged. Probably the cheapest design that I've encountered is the exploding boss, which was annoying but since the boss is so horribly easy is a minor nuisance. I don't think making you look for openings is a design flaw, since you can kill enemies so quickly. Likewise I haven't seen the problem with the unseen shurikens. You're not supposed to stand still for long unless you're charging an ultimate technique, in which case regular shurikens don't break the charge.

Thinimus · Post by **Thinimus** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:50 pm

The big difference is that there are simply more enemies at one time and not all the spider guys are the same.

Though there are some spots where arrow ninjas are thrown in a bit much.

I've heard that Master Ninja will make even guys that can beat Black on Master Ninja with a wooden sword cry. Arrows and Shurikens everywhere.

Vigoorian flail is in in! However there the Unlabored Flawless isn't

There are night sticks (Taipons) and a ball and chain (Musacari or something) and I think a scythe.

The number of weapon types and atttacks reminds me of Nanobreaker.

That was a highly underated game. It was basically a bio-techno version of Castlevania that played like Ninja Gaiden. (The art style was from the guy who did Metal Gear Ray and the Zone of the Enders work. Instead of getting scrolls for techniques, you had to collect different chips that open up "branches" in your categories. Instead of essence, it was gallons of blooded spilled.

You also had Ninpo-esque abilities that you could build up by using them more. It had it's flaws, but it's not a bad game once you get past the first few bit.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:41 am

Acid King wrote:It doesn't sound like you're approaching the game properly, Elixir. It's not Berserk. You can't just walk into a crowd and start swinging and expect not to get hit a shit load of times. That would be Dynasty Warriors syndrome and that would be a design flaw. I don't know what undodgeable attacks you are talking about with the werewolves, as I haven't come across any attack in the game that can't be blocked or dodged.

The werewolves have a guard-breaking jump attack. It isn't so much a problem until the patented ninja gaiden camera fuckery causes one to jump at you unseen from about 40 feet away while you're mid-attack on another one.

I'm going to finish it soon (probably in the next day or two) but this whole game has some of the most horrible design decisions I've seen in a long time. The bosses are garbage, they're either a gimmick 'use X to beat it!' or they're essentially a 'who ganks who first' fight. Which is a stark contrast to all the previous games in the series. There's no excuse for the exploding boss, nor for the 9th chapter "hey I know, let's make them use the bow!" boss.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:07 am

Acid King wrote:It doesn't sound like you're approaching the game properly, Elixir. It's not Berserk. You can't just walk into a crowd and start swinging and expect not to get hit a shit load of times. That would be Dynasty Warriors syndrome and that would be a design flaw. I don't know what undodgeable attacks you are talking about with the werewolves, as I haven't come across any attack in the game that can't be blocked or dodged. Probably the cheapest design that I've encountered is the exploding boss, which was annoying but since the boss is so horribly easy is a minor nuisance. I don't think making you look for openings is a design flaw, since you can kill enemies so quickly. Likewise I haven't seen the problem with the unseen shurikens. You're not supposed to stand still for long unless you're charging an ultimate technique, in which case regular shurikens don't break the charge.

I'm more than aware that I'm not supposed to charge in and expect everything to die just because I have level 3 claws. It's not that. The werewolves I speak of were in Chapter 5, in some eastern European setting with boats and stuff. I had to find a key in order to get through some bridge, and in this particular part the save points are seriously far apart from one another. The main bridge fight with the wolves ended up costing me about 20 lives because of their unblockable attacks, which I'd end up dodging but then have a limb thrown at me from behind.

Then there's a corridor which you have to go through, again with another set of wolves. It isn't so bad but.. oh hey, now you're fighting things in the water. Feel like using the dragon sword? Fuck that, it's nearly impossible. Why do that when you can use the claws, which practically kill them instantly by mashing X?

I continued to play right past the water boss, who was pretty easy except for the fact that I ran out of arrows when he barely had any health showing. I managed to kill him though. The ghost fish were fun because they didn't actually do much damage and I could farm a fair amount of essence from them.

Then I ended up getting up to that boss in the skeleton room. What the hell was that? Another "get behind him, slash at his feet" kind of thing. I still haven't beat him, but the game comes across to me as one in which presents itself as a jRPG. The kind of game where you have a set way of doing things, with a few chests in corners that you may miss.

You know, I was originally told that Ninja Gaiden was so praised because of random attack patterns. All I'm seeing is a bunch of crap with moves that you have absolutely no choice but to avoid (like the skeleton boss grabbing you, putting you in his mouth, and slamming up against the wall, TWICE, in which you can't escape from) or you're dead.

This kind of "do or die" gameplay isn't anything new, and yeah, I realize what kind of forum members I'm talking to. Still, as much as people may attempt/have attempted to tell me I'm "doing it wrong" and that I'll eventually come around, there's just a point in a game where you realize it's not for you.

I've been gaming long enough to realize that this isn't for me.

DBH87 · Post by **DBH87** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:23 am

I would easily say that this is nowhere near as good as the first, I too think the bosses arent great and the whole game just isnt as good as the first. I clocked in around 200 hours playing Black but I just cant see myself doing the same with this game. Its Still good however just not as memorable as the first. Im playing through Warrior again, and Im already getting tired of it. There is just something about this game.

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:01 pm

Damn the camera sucks. I finally played through the demo last night, and ended up with a headache. When you're running around the camera is too damn low, and when you're fighting it's much too close. I understand that being low and close is dramatic, but I much prefer to see upcoming enemies. A medium/far camera sucks for confined places, but this low/close crap isn't cutting it.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:36 pm

The camera is really bad in some places, particularly the fight with the two lava armadillos. Definitely not as refined or polished as the first. Maybe it was pushed out the door early because of the dispute between Itagaki and Tecmo? I can definitely say that it's much easier than the first too, considering how many bosses I've beaten on the first try, even towards the end of the game.

Dunno how i Managed 21 million on my 1st playthrough, yer the last form took me about 40 goes trying to do it on 1 life bar and no items, couldnt be bothered to go back and start the boss again so I just kept trying for the best and it paid off in the end.

I'm kinda curious what your score progression was like. Mine was about 1 million per stage until the 8th I think. That section with the staircase shot my score up something fierce. I just finished the 12th chapter and I'm at 16 million karma.

DBH87 · Post by **DBH87** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:42 pm

No Idea, im playing through warrior again and Im near the end of chapter 6 with 10.5million.

Ive just been spamming the UTs and OTs best I can

jp · Post by jp » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:52 pm

DBH87 wrote:I would easily say that this is nowhere near as good as the first, I too think the bosses arent great and the whole game just isnt as good as the first. I clocked in around 200 hours playing Black but I just cant see myself doing the same with this game. Its Still good however just not as memorable as the first. Im playing through Warrior again, and Im already getting tired of it. There is just something about this game.

I have to disagree. Admittedly, I never played Black, but I think the gameplay refinements make NG2 far superior to the first. Also, the fact that the game is broken up into actual different levels (as opposed to having me run around that stupid plaza all the time) makes it feel a lot more akin to the older games, which I definitely view as a good thing.

In so far as the bosses, yeah, they're fairly easy. But then again I hear the hardcore NG fan would only really be happy with the higher two difficulties anyways.

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:04 pm

you guys are comparing this game to black..... that's not exactly fair consider ninja gaiden came out then was tweaked 2 times via hurricane packs then had a final tweak with black..... then ANOTHER one with sigma.

I love 2, it's not as polished no. But I have played the HELL out of it and is easily one of next gens best games to me.

To each his own. Now I'm playing the next best next gen game I've ever played, MGS4....

escadrille · Post by **escadrille** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:48 am

I'm enjoying this game quote a bit, but some design choices have to be questioned. Especially being peppered with missile weapons from off camera, cheap shot ambushes, etc. Things like this don't ruin the game, but they make you want to ask the designers "why?"

Thinimus · Post by **Thinimus** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:55 am

I'm in the airship level on acolyte. I'm wishing I had chosen warrior, cause right now it's almost jokingly easy, especially with the Scythe. That is my current favorite.

The first chapter time threw me off as I still had Sigma left on my brain and don't play a lot of 360 games.

With the areas where there are projectiles everywhere, you gotta listen for the bows and tosses and keep doing different techniques. The AI seems to notice when you rely on one technique too much. You get punished if you try to do like the first ones and rely on Izuna Drops and Flying Swallows

I'm amazed a the number of moves. Use can use your movement stick to start doing stuff that isn't listed I found.

I'm starting to wonder if you can chop off specific limbs. I'm also starting to wonder if you can go into UT's with charging, because it seems like every now and then I'll go right into one. I'm thinking that if you kill a guy, stop moving for a split second and then start beating into another guy with a strong attack with just the Y button, you instantly charge up from previous essence being practically inside you.

Anyway, this game is fun fun. I find myself having to make myself put it down after several hours wisk by.

jp · Post by jp » Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:38 am

Just beat it.

Awesome game. Awesome awesome awesome. Its so nice to see a developer make an outright challenging game with some solid gameplay to boot.

Also, the final boss reminded me very much of

*SPOILERS SORTA*

Ninja Gaiden 2 (NES)'s final boss. The part with the skull head and the orb in the stomach. That made me smile.

</spoiler>

And for those of you bitchin' about the difficulty... uh... yeah, go check out Mentor for a minute and then get back to me on that.