K.E.T.M

[Herr Schatten]

How is telling a dev that his or her game is crap helping them at all? It certainly would discourage them from making other builds and trying to improve on it.

Now, this is total nonsense. What incentive would a developer have to improve on his project if the only feedback he gets is "it's fine"?

It's perfectly acceptable to point out shortcomings of any game that's released to the public and it's the only way the developers are able to get good feedback on what works and what doesn't, provided they don't already know from years of experience. If a game has so many shortcomings that it can only be desribed as being crap, people should be allowed to do so. Of course they should be able to give good reasons for their opinion, though.

If someone can't handle valid criticism they shouldn't release their game and only show it to their best friends in order not to damage their precious pride. Or they still can release it and talk themselves into thinking that it's perfect and everything about it is just the way it should be, and that the people pointing out flaws are big meanies who just don't understand.

[Phil12]

How is telling a dev that his or her game is crap helping them at all? It certainly would discourage them from making other builds and trying to improve on it.

Now, this is total nonsense. What incentive would a developer have to improve on his project if the only feedback he gets is "it's fine"?

It's perfectly acceptable to point out shortcomings of any game that's released to the public and it's the only way the developers are able to get good feedback on what works and what doesn't, provided they don't already know from years of experience. If a game has so many shortcomings that it can only be desribed as being crap, people should be allowed to do so. Of course they should be able to give good reasons for their opinion, though.

If someone can't handle valid criticism they shouldn't release their game and only show it to their best friends in order not to damage their precious pride. Or they still can release it and talk themselves into thinking that it's perfect and everything about it is just the way it should be, and that the people pointing out flaws are big meanies who just don't understand.

I never said telling someone a game is "fine" was okay. Where did you even get that from? First response was game was crap. Then he stated his reasons....or reason.

Besides. A lot of great Shmups were slower than others. Gradius is a great game and that was a bit slower. Not to say that this game is great, but changing the speed might not just be the answer.

[jonny5]

allow me to expand on my comment....

the game is crap because it is too slow and it plays badly......plain and simple....

and its not a matter of the gameplay just being slow.....its more like the game is slower than it should be....it doesnt feel right....

and the controls and game mechanics are much the same way....slow and it doesnt feel right....too stuttery and slow to respond....

now this might sound like just one reason why it sucks....and i guess it is....but for me speed and smooth gameplay are key....and if a game i play lacks that, then it is deemed crap.....

fairly simple really

and increasing the speed wouldnt fix this game or make it better.....but it certainly couldnt hurt

it plays as if you are playing on a laggy computer with a laggy controller.....

but to each there own i guess

oh ya.....seriously...dont call names...its silly

[Phil12]

allow me to expand on my comment....

the game is crap because it is too slow and it plays badly......plain and simple....

and its not a matter of the gameplay just being slow.....its more like the game is slower than it should be....it doesnt feel right....

and the controls and game mechanics are much the same way....slow and it doesnt feel right....too stuttery and slow to respond....

now this might sound like just one reason why it sucks....and i guess it is....but for me speed and smooth gameplay are key....and if a game i play lacks that, then it is deemed crap.....

fairly simple really

but to each there own i guess

oh ya.....seriously...dont call names...its silly

Ok i can see your point. I apologize for calling you a scrub. It was uncalled for.

[jonny5]

not a worry sir.....i tend to be rather blunt usually.....sometimes it might come off wrong.....i just didnt feel the need to elaborate in my initial post....

i saw the thread....remembered the game.....first thing in my head....'crap!!'

so thats what i posted....

not very constructive, but pretty much covers it

[Phil12]

not a worry sir.....i tend to be rather blunt usually.....sometimes it might come off wrong.....i just didnt feel the need to elaborate in my initial post....

i saw the thread....remembered the game.....first thing in my head....'crap!!'

so thats what i posted....

not very constructive, but pretty much covers it

it's cool. No problem.

[RHE]

What incentive would a developer have to improve on his project if the only feedback he gets is "it's fine"?

Both 'this is crap' and 'it's fine' doesn't change a game or the view of players nor devs, that's right of course. But that doesn't seem to be the point of this discussion as it's rather about the right attitude to add critism as valid critism is constructive while 'this is crap' is always deconstructive.

It's perfectly acceptable to point out shortcomings of any game that's released to the public and it's the only way the developers are able to get good feedback on what works and what doesn't, provided they don't already know from years of experience. If a game has so many shortcomings that it can only be desribed as being crap, people should be allowed to do so. Of course they should be able to give good reasons for their opinion, though.

'This is crap' is no good feedback. People who add valid and constructive critism won't talk like 'this is crap'. So, people who talk like that are disqualifying therselves from a constructive opinion. Another problem is that 'this is crap' comes far to easy from most poeples mouth - it's inflated.

If someone can't handle valid criticism they shouldn't release their game and only show it to their best friends in order not to damage their precious pride.

The same goes for music I quess, so Orcshop sounds like crap btw.

Or they still can release it and talk themselves into thinking that it's perfect and everything about it is just the way it should be, and that the people pointing out flaws are big meanies who just don't understand.

People who pointing out flaws and who don't understand are not the same persons per se, but it most cases poeple who feel bad about something pointing out flaws to get rid of their frustration. And frustration comes mostly from a lack of understanding. So, flaws normally doesn't destroy a game. That's why they are called flaws and net destroyers or whatever. Likeweise a flaw never makes a game bad, it just makes it less comfortable or sometimes when it's a major flaw, it makes it less enjoyable as it could be without flaws. There's not even one game existing without any flaws.

Or they still can release it and talk themselves into thinking that it's perfect and everything about it is just the way it should be, and that the people pointing out flaws are big meanies who just don't understand.

Most players are like 'I suck at the game, so the game sucks'. That's just ignorant but many poeple here are like that. I mean how can you tell if its the games or your own fault when you find some people enjoying the game? If you think you can critizise a game properly you won't use 'this is crap' for sure.

[Phil12]

C'Mon man. Just leave it alone. Everyone said they were sorry. It's all cool now. This is just gonna start another arguement.

[RHE]

You're right. However, Herr Schatten is seemingly pointing into my direction so I response to that.

[Phil12]

You're right. However, Herr Schatten is seemingly pointing into my direction so I response to that.

It's okay. I just dont wanna see another arguement emerge about something i guess i was wrong on. It's cool. I accept it. Maybe I overlooked some details that go into a good shmup. After all, I'm not as familiar with some of these games as others on this forum are.

[RHE]

After all, I'm not as familiar with some of these games as others on this forum are.

Then your attitude is more open mindend then most people here are.

[Phil12]

After all, I'm not as familiar with some of these games as others on this forum are.

Then your attitude is more open mindend then most people here are.

thank you. I appreciate you backing me up, too.

[jonny5]

After all, I'm not as familiar with some of these games as others on this forum are.

Then your attitude is more open mindend then most people here are.

ummm....people arent closed minded because they are critical of your games.....

and honestly....why are you concerned with what people here think anyway?

i have no idea how you even find time to develop games with all the time you spend here defending your games....

and again with the "if you dont like my game you are dumb and know less about games than me" shit....

you make games for people who play games, ie.) US.....and then say we are stupid for not liking it.....some logic you have there....

perhaps its an issue with the game rather than 'the uninformed shmups forum members'

cuz like really...what do we know about shmups anyways.....sppppffff

most people dislike your games.....this is a fact....some people like it.....so why not be happy some people like it rather than wasting your time trying to tell the other 95% of players that they are dumb or uninformed for not liking it

it doesnt help your cause one bit

so if you are so concerned with what people think of your games....then why not listen to the criticism they offer....after all if its approval your after everybody has given you specific instructions to follow to get it

ps.. sorry for the off topic but i was waiting for RHE to show up.....lolz

[Herr Schatten]

You're right. However, Herr Schatten is seemingly pointing into my direction so I response to that.

You're bordering on being paranoid. I never talked about you or any of your games.

[RHE]

You're bordering on being paranoid.

No, I'm just telling something about attitude but you seem to dodge that. If you think that 'your band sounds like crap' is valid critism, why do you refuse to response to that then? Maybe you feel personally offended about that.

I never talked about you or any of your games.

Of course you didn't nor I did.

I don't mean your whole posting is referring to me or anything, but the '...and that the people pointing out flaws are big meanies who just don't understand.' seems to reffering to the 'you just don't understand'. I mean where did you get that from then? I'm not personally offended about that.

So, It doesn't matter if you're pointing to me or don't: Its just that your doing a huge disrespect to every developer with your posting. I don't know how you can think that 'this is crap' is valid critism in any sense.

On a side note, most people dislike shmups but that doesn't make them bad. And I also hope that what poeple telling here is waht they're thinking. All in all critism is a good think to make things better when its added in a good way, so that's way I'm telling you that regardless if its about my game or of any others.

When pople here are really know something about shmups they shouldn't flaw it with 'this is crap' thinking.

[Herr Schatten]

If you think that 'your band sounds like crap' is valid critism, why do you refuse to response to that then?

Because I took that statement as flamebait and I usually don't see the need to respond to that.

Maybe you feel personally offended about that.

Not at all. You're totally entitled to your opinion.

I don't know how you can think that 'this is crap' is valid critism in any sense.

I actually don't think so at all. That's why I wrote the following (important part highlighted):

If a game has so many shortcomings that it can only be desribed as being crap, people should be allowed to do so. Of course they should be able to give good reasons for their opinion, though.

To put it in other words: If someone says: "I think it's crap, because..." and follows it with good reasons why he thinks this way, that's fundamentally different from just randomly bashing something and I'm fine with that.

[RHE]

To put it in other words: If someone says: "I think it's crap, because..." and follows it with good reasons why he thinks this way, that's fundamentally different from just randomly bashing something and I'm fine with that.

I know what you mean but stated the problem with that earlier. People who add arguments to ther cirtism doesn't even begin with 'this is crap'. That's just discouraging and has not much do with being proud about something when feeling offended about such a statement. So what Phil12 was saying in this regards is not totally nonsense as you were saying it.

Personally I don't like the sound of your band at all, I don't mean its's complete crap tough, but I can tell you why I think so: The major flaw is , the singer of the band can't sing. Some poeple surely disagree with that but it makes the whole music unenjoabale for me while people who disagree can enjoy the whole music. So, poeple who say 'this is crap' are always entitled by their opinion even if they say why say think so.

I mean to say a game is too slow is not a good reason to bash a game unless the game is really too slow to be playable and not just to fullfill a taste. To know if it makes the game bad you must know all its rules and investing time in it.

'This is crap' is cleary a phrase to express disrespect over something but you are seem to twisting that with good arguments. That what buffers me with your opion on this thread, you are mixing two different things to justify a discrouraging bash.

[jonny5]

since we are talking about KETM and not one of your games...have you even played it RHE??

it plays like it is lagging....its not a preference issue...its seems screwy...same with the gameplay and controls

to say that i cant judge a game until i have spent loads of time on it....if a game seems bad upon a cursory play, i dont feel like investing more time on it.....especially if the issues are as blatant and obvious as this

and how did somebodys band come up now??

what does that have to do with anything...or are you just trying to get back for some critical comments directed at your game?

'my game sucks?? then your band sucks....'

pretty weak

back on topic....KETM is still 'crap'.....lolz

[RHE]

since we are talking about KETM and not one of your games...have you even played it RHE??

Since I lack of a PSP I didn't play it. And as I said, I'm just talking about attitude. I'm not debating if the game on this thread is good or bad as I didn't play it.

it plays like it is lagging....its not a preference issue...its seems screwy...same with the gameplay and controls

Sounds like it's not finished.

to say that i cant judge a game until i have spent loads of time on it....if a game seems bad upon a cursory play, i dont feel like investing more time on it.....especially if the issues are as blatant and obvious as this

When the controls are completely messed up this is understandable. But since you quit playing it without investing time in it, you're loosing your right to judge about it.

back on topic....KETM is still 'crap'.....lolz

Take a look at this thread. People there were positive about it and adding constructive critism, so it maybe it's not be the greatest shooter around but it's impossible to be complete crap as some people enjoying it. I don't know if these people now much about shmups but that doestn't matter.

[jonny5]

When the controls are completely messed up this is understandable. But since you quit playing it without investing time in it, you're loosing your right to judge about it.

this bothers the hell out of me....your attitude in general bothers the hell out of me....

who the hell are you to say who can and cant voice an opinion about any given game??

i consider myself very well informed and very experienced in shmups as a genre....but by your logic if i think a game is bad and dont force myself to play it despite its shortcomings, i have no right to voice an opinion??

you seriously need professional help RHE....i think all the nay saying about last hope has caused you to develop some kind of complex.....

your logic is completely ass backwards....'if a game seems bad you just havent played it enough or YOU JUST DONT GET IT'....

get over yourself....perhaps its time to admit that you just make games people dont like....there is no understanding involved.....if somebody tries something and dislikes it that is their choice....

but im done arguing with you...your obviously so deluded that its like beating a dead horse.....but im sure i might learn to enjoy beating dead horses if i put in enough time and really UNDERSTOOD it.....

[RHE]

My logic is that if you don't like a game then it's because you don't understand it, because its not finished or it's just not your taste. When you think theres more then this you can add to the list.

When you don't like a game then say you don't like it, but don't try to make statements about your personal opinon. Maybe I'm overreacting about that but I couldn't believe that Herr Schatten was encouraging your discouraging attitude so I'm voicing my opinion about that. Because people who add constructive cirtism are speaking politly with a dev and discussing what subjects needs to be improved. Since you are going crazy now I won't arguing with any further about this though.

[jonny5]

but what you are failing to grasp is this is not a dev thread.....we are not giving feedback or critiqueing revisions for a developer....

this is a shmup player asking other shmup players about a game.....i gave my honest opinion....'its crap!'

i even elaborated on why it was crap.....

i dont need to waste countless hours of my precious gaming time playing a game im really not enjoying to 'earn' the right to voice an opinion

and i can almost guarantee that if you put this game in front of other people here within the first 10 mins playing they will think...'ummmmmm.....this is crap!'

man....shouldnt you be finishing up your new game or something?

hopefully this ones easier to 'understand'......lolz

[RHE]

As the dev of the game here is not anticpiating this thread, your 'it's crap' comment is even more useless. No dev nor any player wants to read such things and you also seem to be personally offended by the lack of quality of this game, which is strange.

i dont need to waste countless hours of my precious gaming time playing a game im really not enjoying to 'earn' the right to voice an opinion

Maybe I was to unspecific on this as everybody has the right to voice an opinion about a game without playing it much but not the right to make a statement like yours. You never know if a dev is reading it - most shmup devs are reading shmups.com. Your kind of threatment is one of the reasons why many homebrew projects quit of get canned. That has not much to to with precious pride, it's just simply discrouging.

[Phil12]

RHE is correct. KETM versions are all test builds leading up to a final product eventually. Also, as part of the Homebrew community, I can say that many great programs that had soo much potential were never finished because of people complaining after the first few builds. It discouraged the Devs from ever finishing them. To name a few:

Snes9x - Never finished. Before the Dev left the scene, he left a source code.

Sem17xn - A Saturn emulator that never saw the light of day.

IE firmwares for PSP - Becus25 left because everyone told him his firmwares were crap and couldn't compare to Dark Alex's OE firmwares. But where was he when Dark Alex left the scene? Making firmwares for greedy little bitches who didn't deserve them. Then Dark Alex came back and no one gave a shit about him anymore.

[moozooh]

Snes9x - Never finished. Before the Dev left the scene, he left a source code.

What are you talking about? Snes9x is still actively developed (despite being a mature emulator already), the last major release was just over a year ago.

[Herr Schatten]

'This is crap' is cleary a phrase to express disrespect over something but you are seem to twisting that with good arguments. That what buffers me with your opion on this thread, you are mixing two different things to justify a discrouraging bash.

No, I didn't mix up anything. It's just that I'm all for harsh criticism, because that's usually the kind you learn the most from. Even back in school the people who demanded any criticism directed at their work to be wrapped in verbal candy floss annoyed the hell out of me. The trick is not to take it personally when your work is being criticised.

We're not really discussing attitude here, we're discussing semantics. For me, "this is crap because...", "this is not very good, because..." and "this could need some tweaking, because..." are pretty much interchangeable. The "because..." part is the only important bit.
For you, on the other hand, those statements are obviously not largely the same. I assume that you find the first one offensive while you find the latter two acceptable. Am I right?

In my opinion, a developer/writer/musician just has to learn to cope with valid criticism independently from the level of politeness involved. As long as significant reasons are given, the tone is nothing to get all worked up about.

[Phil12]

Snes9x - Never finished. Before the Dev left the scene, he left a source code.

What are you talking about? Snes9x is still actively developed (despite being a mature emulator already), the last major release was just over a year ago.

I'm referring to the PSP version. The project has been picked up by many authors but none have since then made major improvements. I forget what the last release was called. As for the PC version, I know nothing about it.

[RHE]

No, I didn't mix up anything. It's just that I'm all for harsh criticism, because that's usually the kind you learn the most from. Even back in school the people who demanded any criticism directed at their work to be wrapped in verbal candy floss annoyed the hell out of me. The trick is not to take it personally when your work is being criticised.

There's a different between being too proud to accept valid critism and not accepting invalid critism trough. When someone doesn't listen to your critism is your fault too as you're adding it in the wrong way.

We're not really discussing attitude here, we're discussing semantics. For me, "this is crap because...", "this is not very good, because..." and "this could need some tweaking, because..." are pretty much interchangeable. The "because..." part is the only important bit.
For you, on the other hand, those statements are obviously not largely the same. I assume that you find the first one offensive while you find the latter two acceptable. Am I right?

Maybe you're not mixing the two things but you doesn't seem to follow this thread then. It was never about 'this is crap, because...' as there's not one significant reason against the game in this thread. Basicily you were defending 'it's just crap' with telling about something how it should be from the book: 'It's crap, because...' but that doesn't seem to work.

However, when something is really crap and it's just a feature of a whole game then you could say 'this feature crap, because...' but this doesn't really happen often. And when it does happen, then just because a game is not finished as mentioned earlier. And that's not what happended on this thread as someome here was clearly just saying the whole thing is crap based on his subjective point of view. And that doesn't tell much to a dev or any players because with an unfinished game, there's always room for improvements so 'this is crap, because...' is just crap.

In my opinion, a developer/writer/musician just has to learn to cope with valid criticism independently from the level of politeness involved. As long as significant reasons are given, the tone is nothing to get all worked up about.

I agree with that, but still valid critism rarely comes from 'it's crap' people. And be honest, If I would curse at you all the time but yet add arguments you would quit listen to me very quickly.

I mean wour band is already formed and pretty much experienced. Maybe the band never had formed the way it is when people would have had added harsh criticism on it all the time. Everybody is different on this and not always is precious pride involved. So, change the singer of your band and you would have one person less who's critizising your band.

[Herr Schatten]

When someone doesn't listen to your critism is your fault too as you're adding it in the wrong way.

Who decides what's the "right" way, then?

valid critism rarely comes from 'it's crap' people.

That's debatable. They could also just be very vocal about their point of view and/or have a very low tolerance threshold for badly made stuff, which, I'd argue, is not entirely subjective.

I think I catch your drift, but I don't agree at all with your opinion about the way criticism can/should be adressed (and received). Agree to disagree then?

[RHE]

Agree to disagree then?

Agreed.

Nevertheless, to me the right way to add critism is the way it's constructive, which can vary from circumstance to circumstance. I mean you never know if someone quits listen to valid critism when its added in a unfriendly tone, so it's better to be polite for the criticism's sake. So I think that Phils12 statement 'How is telling a dev that his or her game is crap helping them at all? It certainly would discourage them from making other builds and trying to improve on it.' is not total nonsense after all.