Subterranean Animism (Touhou 11)

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MX7
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Post by MX7 »

Some thoughts on the demo:

1: level 2 feels seriously unfair. I don't feel like I'm using any shmup skills to play it, just dumb luck that will turn into raw stimulus response once I memorize what to do. Bullets appearing out of nowhere = not fun :(

2: Game feels a lot harder. I've only played it on normal so far, though.

3: Extend system is odd. Not sure if I like it. Kind of reminds me of Zeldar with the pieces of heart system. Obviously, it's linked to your performance like score based extends, as they only materialise after no bombing a boss's pattern, but I can see it getting well frustrating when through no fault of your own, the 'piece of life' pops into existence on the other side of an inpenatratable bullet storm, rendering your hard work useless.

The level 1 sub boss is a loli in a bucket. The level 3 sub boss is a unicorn loli with chains round her feet. Oh Zun.
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Post by moozooh »

MX7 wrote:I can see it getting well frustrating when through no fault of your own, the 'piece of life' pops into existence on the other side of an inpenatratable bullet storm, rendering your hard work useless.
Grazing bullets boosts your tension meter; when it reaches 1.00, all freefalling items get sucked in automatically.
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MX7
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Post by MX7 »

moozooh wrote:
MX7 wrote:I can see it getting well frustrating when through no fault of your own, the 'piece of life' pops into existence on the other side of an inpenatratable bullet storm, rendering your hard work useless.
Grazing bullets boosts your tension meter; when it reaches 1.00, all freefalling items get sucked in automatically.
That's cool. I thought it was too obvious a fault, even for the demo version.
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Udderdude
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Post by Udderdude »

MX7 wrote:Some thoughts on the demo:

1: level 2 feels seriously unfair. I don't feel like I'm using any shmup skills to play it, just dumb luck that will turn into raw stimulus response once I memorize what to do. Bullets appearing out of nowhere = not fun :(

2: Game feels a lot harder. I've only played it on normal so far, though.
Definitely agree with this. I was enjoying myself until that damn level 2 miniboss. Still way too many bullets that move slowly and/or just sit there doing nothing.

Also the background music file taking up 126 MB, while still sounding like dinky MIDI, is just lulz-tastic.
MX7 wrote:The level 1 sub boss is a loli in a bucket. The level 3 sub boss is a unicorn loli with chains round her feet. Oh Zun.
:?
Last edited by Udderdude on Mon May 26, 2008 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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P_HAT
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Post by P_HAT »

loli in a bucket is a great idea.

too bad art is shit =(

Where the fuck cool IN/PoFV/StB art?!
WTF Zun?!
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Mischief Maker
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Post by Mischief Maker »

P_HAT wrote:loli in a bucket is a great idea.

too bad art is shit =(

Where the fuck cool IN/PoFV/StB art?!
WTF Zun?!
Well I guess I'm in the minority who thought that the art in Mountain of Faith was the best in the series. From the clouds over a field of wheat with autumn leaves drifting lazily past to the waterfall where enemies fly up underneath and burst out to fire at you, to my personal favorite, the gorgeous river on level 3.

Yeah the portraits were hastily scribbled together, but who cares about the plot? In any game, if the graphics during the gameplay gets top priority over cutscene graphics, that's a step in the right direction.
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MX7
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Post by MX7 »

Mischief Maker wrote:
P_HAT wrote:loli in a bucket is a great idea.

too bad art is shit =(

Where the fuck cool IN/PoFV/StB art?!
WTF Zun?!
Well I guess I'm in the minority who thought that the art in Mountain of Faith was the best in the series. From the clouds over a field of wheat with autumn leaves drifting lazily past to the waterfall where enemies fly up underneath and burst out to fire at you, to my personal favorite, the gorgeous river on level 3.

Yeah the portraits were hastily scribbled together, but who cares about the plot? In any game, if the graphics during the gameplay gets top priority over cutscene graphics, that's a step in the right direction.
I agree. Mountain of Faith looked awesome.
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Post by Kaspal »

MX7 wrote:
Mischief Maker wrote:
P_HAT wrote:loli in a bucket is a great idea.

too bad art is shit =(

Where the fuck cool IN/PoFV/StB art?!
WTF Zun?!
Well I guess I'm in the minority who thought that the art in Mountain of Faith was the best in the series. From the clouds over a field of wheat with autumn leaves drifting lazily past to the waterfall where enemies fly up underneath and burst out to fire at you, to my personal favorite, the gorgeous river on level 3.

Yeah the portraits were hastily scribbled together, but who cares about the plot? In any game, if the graphics during the gameplay gets top priority over cutscene graphics, that's a step in the right direction.
I agree. Mountain of Faith looked awesome.
+10

i think ZUN improves with every touhou iteration... i didnt play MoF cuz by then, i stopped playin any doujin (not enough time... with the PS2 and those cave games, work n shit...), but when i tried it out, i loved it... like i loved toruble witches... so yeah, i like the art in this, the latest touhou iteration...

one thing i wanna comment... its customary for touhou games to appear in demo format (like this one) at Reitaisai (with "HQ" BGM and stuff) and then appear in the next comiket in full version (it has happened as far as i know with PCB and IN... not sure with the others)... so expect this one to be in full version at C74 (august).
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Post by Momijitsuki »

moozooh wrote:Cleared Hard mode. It was actually hard! I no-missed up to stage 3 boss's 2nd spellcard, but after that it became just too demanding, this is definitely the way Touhou games should be like, difficulty-wise. Lunatic is basically unplayable, just as I wanted it to be, lol.

Replay here. I used some neat strats only accessible to Marisa-B (which will likely remain my character of choice for this game).

As for the characters.

Reimu and Marisa again, their mobility characteristics are pretty much identical to what they had in MoF.

• Reimu-A: powerful, has an ability to wrap around the screen if you double-tap against a wall without shooting. It may help survival, but not much (see stage 3). The bomb is rather long but doesn't deal any damage.
• Reimu-B: her shot and her bomb suck. Her ability is to suck all items up at any part of the screen if you let go of shot. Which also sucks since you have tension meter just for that purpose already. Useless.
• Reimu-C: Youmu-style option which shoots in both directions at power 2.0 and higher. Special ability is 2x moving speed when neither shot nor focus are held. Nice bomb. Incredibly versatile overall, will likely become pros' choice.

• Marisa-A: decent shot with 2x power gauge (0.0—8.0 instead of the usual 0.0—4.0), which also means twice the bomb carrying capacity. The bomb is powerful but very short, which decreases its usability.
• Marisa-B: can change option formation a-la Garegga. This provides incredible versatility (see replay above). The bomb is average.
• Marisa-C: the christmas tree shot. The bomb is interesting: it's almost entirely analogous to PCB's supernatural border (except this time you get like 15 seconds until it vanishes). You activate it and it turns into a one-hit shield. Might be useful for situations where you think you can hold up and don't want to spam bombs. Otherwise, she's crap.

Also, claiming a high score thread once the full game is released!
So far, it's a solid demo if you ask me. It is certainly much harder (the bullets are lightning fast on Lunatic), but the newer shooting styles are fun.

Moozooh, ReimuA's bomb may not do damage, but it's excellent for grazing. You can fly all over the screen and hit as many bullets as you want and it gives you graze points until the duration ends, and then it erases all of the bullets onscreen so you have time to get back in a manageable position.

ReimuB sucks. I can't see this one being popular at all.

ReimuC is nice, but not really my style.

MarisaA is one of my favorites so far, because of the widespread attack range and the fact you basically get 8 bombs at full power.

MarisaB will clearly be one of the expert's favorites, I think, because of the different focuses and ranges you can use. It provides a lot of different options.

MarisaC is one of my favorites too, because it's basically the Magic Missile Marisa from the other games, with a bonus: Her bomb is one of my favorites so far. Instant safety net for a rather long time. Nice.

As for the danmaku designs, I've loved them so far. Parsee's going to be a fun boss. (especially that part where a bullet trail follows you!)

As for character designs, there's a miniboss in a bucket. I found this to be slightly more than adorable. =P

Overall, it seems to have covered everything MoF screwed up (even though MoF had some of my favorite danmaku designs so far, as well as some of my favorite songs so far), but I just wish we could go back to the PCB/IN style with the 128 power limit, and collecting points for extends and such.

Has anyone figured out the scoring system in 11 yet?
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Post by Shion »

I enjoyed the demo more than Touhou 10. I don't like power being your bombs, but a well. The patterns are better, it feels like a more exciting game (faster bullets, less tap dodging), and seems to have an interesting, yet forgiving scoring system.
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Post by lgb »

moozooh wrote:Cleared Hard mode. It was actually hard! I no-missed up to stage 3 boss's 2nd spellcard, but after that it became just too demanding, this is definitely the way Touhou games should be like, difficulty-wise. Lunatic is basically unplayable, just as I wanted it to be, lol..
moozooh wrote:• Marisa-B: can change option formation a-la Garegga. This provides incredible versatility (see replay above). The bomb is average.
...you're shiting me. Must find demo fast.
Last edited by lgb on Wed May 28, 2008 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Momijitsuki »

LGB wrote:
moozooh wrote:Cleared Hard mode. It was actually hard! I no-missed up to stage 3 boss's 2nd spellcard, but after that it became just too demanding, this is definitely the way Touhou games should be like, difficulty-wise. Lunatic is basically unplayable, just as I wanted it to be, lol.., and then it erases all of the bullets onscreen so you have time to get back in a manageable position.
moozooh wrote:• Marisa-B: can change option formation a-la Garegga. This provides incredible versatility (see replay above). The bomb is average.
...you're shiting me. Must find demo fast.
Indeed. Get it as soon as you can!
EDIT: Hey, I said the whole erasing bullet thing...why does it say moozooh said it?
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Post by Arvandor »

There's still a lot of slow moving bullets that don't do anything, but this game forces you to move around A LOT more than any previous touhou game, which is excellent. I may actually bother to put some time into this one once it gets a full release.
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Post by Enhasa »

It's just a demo, and I do think STB and even POFV and IAMP are a lot better, but so far this is my favorite "traditional" Touhou game. Uh, I think the music and graphic design and everything is really unmemorable and crappy, but the bullet patterns are best (a couple taken from STB) and character selection is too.

Marisa B and especially Reimu C are awesome and the most fun to play in the entire series, and some of the others are really clever. Reimu A is neat, and I've always wanted to see someone make a game with wraparound once, but that ability would be way more broken in another series of games with more fast, aimed bullets. Marisa C is the most balanced implementation of (pseudo) autobomb I've ever seen, a great idea to do it this way.



Edit: Wanted to add that the section where you need to shoot the rings, but not too much that they pop, is genius. The 3rd boss as a whole makes the demo actually, I don't remember much else since 1cc normal took one attempt, lol.
Arvandor wrote:There's still a lot of slow moving bullets that don't do anything, but this game forces you to move around A LOT more than any previous touhou game, which is excellent.
You should play Shoot the Bullet then, since you move around the most in that by a lot. 8)
Momijitsuki wrote:EDIT: Hey, I said the whole erasing bullet thing...why does it say moozooh said it?
LGB just messed up the quoting, that's all.
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Post by Erinu »

A translation of custom.exe would be nice.

Stage 3 seems really broken..
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Post by lgb »

Enhasa wrote:
Momijitsuki wrote:EDIT: Hey, I said the whole erasing bullet thing...why does it say moozooh said it?
LGB just messed up the quoting, that's all.
I feel like I just tripped over a root. I thought I deleted that.
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Post by moozooh »

Details on scoring system so far.

The bulk of the scoring system is, just as with MoF, picking up point items at max value, and speedkilling bosses for spellcard bonuses. Nothing known about the endgame bonus yet. Point item value is determined by a double-variable system: a cumulative base value (1) is multiplied by a fluctuating tension factor (2), and the result at the moment of point item pickup determines the value you get.

Base value
It's the first counter (starts at 25,000 for Easy, 50,000 at Normal, 100,000 at Hard, and 200,000 at Lunatic). It is increased by picking up green items (looking similar to faith items in MoF). Every time you die, it's reset. Yes, just like that.

Large green items add 100 to the base value. Small items add 10, but not always. I haven't been able to figure out what condition must be fulfilled for them to add to the value.

Tension meter (What's the actual name for it, anyway?)
Acts as a multiplier to the base value. It starts as a 0.00—1.00 scale, with 0.00 being the default value. When you actively graze, the slider goes up to the maximum value; each grazed bullet instantly increments it by 0.05. Going above the point of autocollection boosts it to the max value instantly. When not grazing anything, it quickly decays (decrementing by 0.01 each 3 frames or so). If it reaches the maximum value once, the slider is freezed there for a short duration (about a second, though it probably depends on the multiplier value that you've built up — see below), and you only need to graze like 3-4 bullets per second to keep it at maximum value.

You can shift the scale forward by grazing: each 100 bullets grazed add 0.01 to both of its limits (i.e., at 100 graze points it becomes 0.01—1.01; at 2000, 0.20—1.20). These increments are permanent, like cherry max in PCB.

The character sucks all the freefalling items in automatically when the tension meter reaches maximum value (NOT just 1.00!), so there aren't any "free" effects upon grazing large amounts of bullets.

So far this sounds complex, but in practice it's much simplier: you just graze everything you can and/or destroy enemies in the process.

Enter the strategic part:

1) many enemies fly away before you can kill them if you don't do it quick enough (and you can't always do it quick when grazing, so you have to decide/calculate whether to increase the multiplier or to cash in);

2) you can inflate the tension scale tremendously by abusing Reimu-A's (and only her!) bomb for powergrazing a-la EoSD, sacrificing any base value you've accumulated. See below for an example.

Further thoughts on the characters.

1. Reimu-A has the potential to be the new Sakuya-B for her bomb, which lets her graze freely at high movement speed for a couple seconds, and then do a global bullet-cancel. That and the firepower are her main advantages in terms of scoring, and it seems she has a tremendous edge over the others in that regard.
Reimu-A replay here.

2. Reimu-C and especially Marisa-B still seem to me to be the most interesting and versatile characters otherwise, and they will likely come forth if Reimu-A gets nerfed in the full release. They can graze more than Reimu-A when not using bomb/suicide tactic, and kill more enemies at the same time. Also, their bombs are VERY powerful at point-blank.
Replays: Reimu-C, Marisa-B.

Additionally, since the initial base value for point items is much less at lower difficulties, green items offer a lot more sizeable increase in value than on Hard/Lunatic. This way, a correct equivalent for 1000 accumulated base value points is 400 graze points at Easy, 200 at Normal, 100 at Hard, and 50 at Lunatic. Considering that you can get around 20k worth of green items over the first three stages, you'd need to graze 8000 more bullets on Easy to offset the value, which isn't feasible at all. 4000 at Normal might be feasible depending on the endgame bonus. In case its value is mostly dependent on the remaining lifestock and the accumulated base value (i.e., on whatever you've gained via green items, disregarding the initial value), even Hard mode might have to be no-missed.

Overall, the scoring system still isn't the best, but I find it more strategically deep and engaging than both EoSD's and MoF's.

Also, GIL made a no-horizontal run on Easy mode using Marisa-A (abusing the inflated power bar, obviously). Nothing particularly amazing, though, since he barely manages to escape game over by the end of the demo even considering the incredible amount of bombing.
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Square King
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Post by Square King »

Anyone having problems getting a joystick to work? I've used the same stick for previous Touhou games, but it won't work on this one.
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