wow danmaku games look dumb

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue May 20, 2008 6:43 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB4bE1xFrm4

wtf is going on

it's like ddp loop 2 or something lol

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:09 am

I like the rapid changes in the enemy bullet patterns at the start. The game seems to fall into predictable (and to me - boring) bullet curtain territory soon after though.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:16 am

lol it just throws all this crap at you and overwhelms you

then you have to like

learn it

which is actually a lot easier than it looks, but still somewhat challenging at the nonobvious sections

The stage portions still suck apparently though. The stages are more like bosses and the bosses are more like stages (in the amount of flexibility you're given for dodging and other attributes).

I'll never get why doujin danmaku games do that lol

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:16 am

Some of the patterns look fun, but he bombs all of the good ones.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:17 am

JZS f*CK, you reminded me why I am into the old school stuff more.

Generic and almost undodgeable patterns. Nice to look at but surely no fun to play.

disclaimer: I love DDP DOJ.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:32 am

looks like a cave loop 2 lol

random crap everywhere to overwhelm you

at least until you learn where the chokepoints are

but cave still puts constant pressure on your since it constantly throws in other patterns to interrupt the normal tap dodge and cutback sequences

and cutbacks in cave tend to corner you more frequently, since you have to move more to avoid that 6 way spread or something

in doujins you have uh
tap dodging
you'll never have to make a cutback anywhere lol

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:42 am

i think the best thing cave does is include several enemy types to really mix you up. Ground types that aim straight at you, ground types that can only shoot 8-way, air types with aimed, unaimed, aimed pattern, unaimed pattern, etc.

Why don't you like cave games, shoe? Bad scoring systems?

orange · Post by **orange** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:51 am

shoe-sama wrote: and cutbacks in cave tend to corner you more frequently, since you have to move more to avoid that 6 way spread or something

sup latter half of stage 3 in doj

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Tue May 20, 2008 8:48 am

Only Unaimed Shots = lol bullet barf
Only Aimed Shots = tap,tap,tap ..

Of course the best solution is to mix the two, ideally in a way that requires the player to navigate the unaimed shots to avoid the aimed ones.

320x240 · Post by **320x240** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:50 am

Udderdude wrote:Only Unaimed Shots = lol bullet barf
Only Aimed Shots = tap,tap,tap ..

Of course the best solution is to mix the two, ideally in a way that requires the player to navigate the unaimed shots to avoid the aimed ones.

You could stick to just one, if you build the whole game around it. The result would become somewhat one-dimensional though - like some early arcade game. I think the loss would be greater in the longevity department than in the fun department. Of course modern players have become accustomed to a certain dynamic, which in Cave's case approaches the sublime. The devil is in the detail.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Tue May 20, 2008 9:57 am

320x240 wrote:The devil is in the detail.

Agreed. What Cave (and some other major shmup developers) does great is its pacing: the stages are perceived as a whole, without ever making the player feel like it's suddenly become too empty, or too random, or too repetitive. I don't think I've seen any doujin game that would do it to that extent of harmony.

Gungriffon Geona · Post by **Gungriffon Geona** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:03 pm

I think this is one of the reasons I liked Dotechin, because it was consistent and wasn't afraid to make itself really fucking painful to play properly. (That and it's the only game I've seen that really does it's best to force you to stay away from the left/back side of the screen, lest you get hit in the ass by something.)

There's a few other games that I rather like for such things, but I can't really think of them now.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:57 pm

Zebra Airforce wrote:Why don't you like cave games, shoe? Bad scoring systems?

yeah that's a major factor

Too much continuity (especially ddp chaining system)

I don't like it when I mess up once and then my score is shit as a result.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:03 pm

That's why Amusement Makers made a lot less of these than ZUN made Touhou, maybe. To keep it simple.

kemical · Post by **kemical** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:42 pm

to me this looks a bit unbalanced, not in the "thats impossible" way, but just look how the player resorts to staying at the bottom of the screen, a lot of high end shooters are really planned out with the stage design, almost becoming rhythmic with good motions on the screen.
The video reminds me of unwanted player behaviors in FPS level design, doorway fights or closet camping...

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:59 pm

You should try Zillion Beatz shoe.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Tue May 20, 2008 11:10 pm

Oh yes. It's unbelievable.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Wed May 21, 2008 2:11 am

It looks like an incredibly anal memorizer trying to hide the fact that it's an incredibly anal memorizer. But I haven't played the game, and I'm certainly not an expert player, so I could be wrong.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:14 am

a lot easier than it looks

Especially when consider that youtube video sizes are tiny.

Bullet hell gives you a false sense of difficulty whenever dodging methods are incredibly bland, obvious, and simple. In most shmups you have to guide bullets and do cutbacks properly or else you'll get trapped. In doujins there tends not to be much continuity. You can pretty much position yourself anywhere and still have enough space and time to avoid the next pattern.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Wed May 21, 2008 3:33 am

kemical wrote:to me this looks a bit unbalanced, not in the "thats impossible" way, but just look how the player resorts to staying at the bottom of the screen, a lot of high end shooters are really planned out with the stage design, almost becoming rhythmic with good motions on the screen.
The video reminds me of unwanted player behaviors in FPS level design, doorway fights or closet camping...

I agree with this. Having to only twitch around a bit the entire level is just .. bleh. I definitely kept this in mind while developing XOP/Black ..

Liked the comparison to poor FPS level design. I made some maps for Heretic and Doom, and I made sure that the player couldn't just 'escape' from the fight and pick enemies off. In a few areas I allowed this, but made up for the fact that if you tried to fight head-on you got destroyed from the sheer numbers of enemies.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Wed May 21, 2008 6:05 am

nimitz wrote:You should try Zillion Beatz shoe.

Zillion Beatz is actually pretty bad. The levels are super bland, the scoring system sucks, the weapons don't give a feeling of power to them, the sound sucks except boss themes. The only good thing about it is DOJ-like bosses. And apparently, the Unbelievable difficulty also sucks because the enemies shoot obnoxious amounts of bullets that quickly get impossible to escape. Wasted potential, imo.

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Wed May 21, 2008 12:14 pm

The levels are super bland, the scoring system sucks, the weapons don't give a feeling of power to them, the sound sucks except boss themes.

Opinions, opinions.

And apparently, the Unbelievable difficulty also sucks because the enemies shoot obnoxious amounts of bullets that quickly get impossible to escape.

If it's too hard for you doesn't mean it's too hard for everyone and most importantly the difficulty comes from the right places, unlike many doujins.

Thats mostly why I sugested it to shoe since it's pretty much what he says is good about shmups.

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:10 pm

nimitz wrote:Opinions, opinions.

Uh, yeah? You expected something else?

nimitz wrote:If it's too hard for you doesn't mean it's too hard for everyone and most importantly the difficulty comes from the right places, unlike many doujins.

Thats mostly why I sugested it to shoe since it's pretty much what he says is good about shmups.

Play something like Mushihime-sama Ultra mode a few times, then play ZB on Unbelievable difficulty and see a flaw in the "right places" assessment. ZB's Unbelievable is a quantitative increase in difficulty, not qualitative like Mushi's Ultra. And quantitative increases in difficulty that are implemented without changing pretty much anything else in the game mean there is one, at most two difficulty settings at which the game stays balanced. Shoe has already called it a "euroshmup" mode previously, and I agree with him.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:39 pm

moozooh wrote:Zillion Beatz is actually pretty bad. The levels are super bland, the scoring system sucks, the weapons don't give a feeling of power to them, the sound sucks except boss themes. The only good thing about it is DOJ-like bosses. And apparently, the Unbelievable difficulty also sucks because the enemies shoot obnoxious amounts of bullets that quickly get impossible to escape. Wasted potential, imo.

Excellent opinion. Simply play everything else but that game and let the people who want to play it, play it. If nimitz wants to continue... do so, maybe in PMs; this thread doesn't seem to be about Zillion Beatz too much, eh?

It's called Unbelieveable for a reason. Believe it.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Wed May 21, 2008 10:41 pm

Zillion Buttz

Fixed.