There was once a time when people stuck by a single console. You were either an Atari guy, or an Intellivsion guy (or the upperclass Colecovision guy!). Later it was Nintendo or Sega (take your pick of consoles to battle on… NES, SMS, SNES, Genesis/Megadrive, etc). Then it was a 3-way race… Nintendo, Sega and the newcomer Playstation. Only a handful of folks could afford to have multiple consoles and buy games for them all. But times have changed… at least for scrolling shooter enthusiasts and retro gamers like me. Nowadays, there is no logical reason not to own multiple consoles from the previous generation (cost is still a factor for the current generation consoles). Used consoles are cheap enough and the games can still be had aftermarket – often for short money. There can be no convincing debate about whether you should have a SNES or a Megadrive – you need both if you are a shooting fan. Same goes true for a PSX and Saturn – there are simply too many good exclusive titles and tiles that are done better on one system vs. the other to ignore having them in your arsenal.
But one must start somewhere… as cheap as the consoles are, there clearly are better choices to start with. One probably wouldn’t just buy a TI-99 to play shooters on… there are only 3 and none are that stunning (though Parsec is still great). So I’m attempting to put down some random thoughts and a few guidelines for those that may be a little confused with the plethora of consoles to choose from. It also may spark a bit of discussion which is always good. I’ll start by saying that your priority in obtaining consoles to play shooters on will be different from mine depending on what kinds of shooters you enjoy – manic types are not likely to enjoy what the PS1 has to offer but may enjoy the Dreamcast or PS2 offerings. Classic or retro-style shooter fans may enjoy the Saturn far more than the Dreamcast.
With that said, here are my opinions on the subject… let’s start in order of least desirable to most desirable with the caveat that all of these systems are highly recommended for the shooter fan. I’m going to skip most of the 8-bit consoles except for the NES – as much as I love the Atari, Colecovision and Intellivision, you can probably get buy without one for your shooting needs. I'm also leaving off the Gamecube and XBOX - there is just not enough exclusive shooters to recommend them above any in the list at this time.
7. Nintendo – NES. Here we have a wide variety of classic shooters to choose from. Most are arcade conversions – games like Sky Shark, Galaga, Gradius, Life Force and Twinbee are all well represented. Some console only games appeared here such as Zanac, Star Force and Gunnac . Most of the games are inexpensive and are easy to find… but they are not nearly as polished as some of the shooters on later consoles. No fancy graphics and the sound is often below average… but there are some good times to be had on the NES. Recommended for those that enjoy classic shooters and can look past somewhat dated graphics and sound.
6. Nintendo Super NES. The SNES is a wonderful platform for a wide variety of games… RPGs and Platform games shine here. But Shooters didn’t fare as well – though there are still quite a number of quality titles on the system. A few Arcade conversions, but also a boatload of exclusives and console-only shooters. Axelay, UN Squadron, Space Megaforce, Gradius III and R-Type III are all solid titles. It also boasts the best Macross shooter on any console. Good support by Konami (Gradius and Parodius titles) helps this console out quite a bit. Titles are fairly easy to come by and nothing is overly expensive.
5. Sega Dreamcast. The Dreamcast died too quickly, IMO. Nothing saddens me more than the demise of Sega’s hardware/console division. But the little white box that could is still running fairly strong. Trizeal was just released last month and there are a number of great shooters for the system. Most can be had fairly reasonably priced… some of the more recent shooters with smaller print runs (i.e. Border Down) are now starting to go up in price, but they still can be had. Most of the shooters on this system are in the manic category… though a few classics are here. A bit top-heavy with Takumi shooters (Mars Matrix, GigaWing 1, 2) but a few amazing conversions like Psikyo’s Zero Gunner 2 and Ikaruga make it as system worth owning. Some of these games have since been ported to other consoles – lessening the need for the Dreamcast. But it’s still a solid choice – and the dozen or so shooters that we got for the system are all of above-average quality.
4. Sega Genesis aka Megadrive. The Megadrive lacked the sound and graphics prowess of the SNES but it boasted a faster CPU and that’s very helpful to shooters where lots of bullets tend to slow things down. Shooters really got great treatment on the Megadrive – from sidescrolling masterpieces like Thunderforce III and VI to Compile’s vertical tour-de-force in MUSHA Aleste. Lots of Toaplan goodness as well – there were more Toaplan games released for this system than any other (the PCE is a close second). Tons of classic games here – with a few really pushing what could be done on a 16-bit system (TF4 is an example of maybe going for too much but it’s great to see what they could do with the platform). Highly recommended for the classic shooter fan – there are literally dozens of shooters in the cheap range (i.e. $10 or less each) and for some reason you can find a lot more of these complete with manuals and cases (vs. the SNES which don’t often have the boxes – which suck anyway).
3. PC Engine – PCE. The PC Engine is one hell of a shooting machine! There are roughly 100 shooters released for the PCE – almost half of which came out on the PCE-CD format. Some exclusives here that are amazing include Gate of Thunder, Blazing Lazers, Final Soldier, Soldier Blade and Spriggan. There are some super-rare games here as well… some are actually very good such as Sylphia and Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire. And who could forget the best version of Lords of Thunder available! This system has a wide variety of shooters… with many companies represented. It stands above the 8-bit and 16-bit eras with ease as far as shooters go. Some feel that this is the best shooter console to grace the planet… but I feel it lacks something the final 2 entries have – namely a healthy mix of old-school, mid-school and new-school shooters. Still, you can’t go wrong with a PCE / PCE-CD for your shooting fix!
2. Sega Saturn. Oh how it pains me to put my favorite console in second place! The system has it all – great hardware, great 2D sprite-shunting capabilities and many developers who really did the system justice. It features what I consider to be the ultimate shooter in the universe – Radiant Silvergun. And there are amazing conversions of some of the best shooters out there – Thunderforce V, Batsugun, The Game Paradise, etc. Konami supported and loved the machine and all those efforts are amazing. There is a great mix of classic titles (retro packs – especially from Capcom, Konami and Taito) mixed with some modern mid-90’s shooters that start to approach the modern era nicely. My favorite shooter company Psikyo is well represented on the system. Raizing is also covered nicely – and Battle Garegga is highly sought after. Some of the games can get expensive… but most are still reasonably priced. The Saturn is also very import friendly - a simple trace cut and jumper will do the trick... or any one of the import converter carts work nicely. The depth and breath of having more than 50 great shooters to choose from makes this a must have system for all shooter fans.
1. Playstation PSX, PS2 – I’m grouping these together now. If it were the PSX alone, it would stand side-by-side with the Saturn. It has more top-notch exclusives (Zanac Neo, Raiden Project, Raiden DX, Gradius Gaiden, G-Darius, Einhander, R-Type Delta, etc) and some games which it outshines the Saturn (DonPachi, DoDonPachi, In The Hunt) and a few retro packs covering the Namco games puts this on a level playing field with the Saturn. If you think the PSX can’t push sprites around with the best of them, just put in Raiden DX for a half hour and then check back with me. The addition of the PS2 pushes the Playstation into the top spot as far as shooting consoles goes… with backwards compatibility and the latest offerings from Cave (Espgaluda, Dodonpachi Dai-Oujou) R-Type Final, Gradius V, the upcoming Mushihimesama, all the Psikyo retro packs (Dragon Blaze and Sengoku Ace available for the first time!). The PSX/PS2 is capable of the widest variety of shooters on the planet – from classics like Space Invaders, Galaxian, Galaga to modern masterpieces from Cave. And more scrolling shooting games are likely to arrive for it in the future. It knows no equal in the shooter world in terms of the sheer ground it covers.
That’s basically it… this is not an essay to say that one must own a PSX/PS2 and nothing else. It’s simply thoughts on the state of console shooting hardware as I see it. As far as I’m concerned, a shooting fan should strive to obtain all of these consoles (not difficult – the consoles are all fairly cheap) so that they can build up the best and most relevant library of shooting games – past, present and (potentially) future.
Ranking the Shooter Consoles...
Ranking the Shooter Consoles...
llabnip - DaveB
Once more the light shines brightly in sector 2814.
Once more the light shines brightly in sector 2814.
Great stuff!
The only thing I would say is that the "best" changes periodically. I think you have reflected this well.
This is especially true of Arcade conversions; where the PCE or Saturn used to be seen as essential they are now less so as the PCB's are coming down in price and MAME is commonly used. Much as I really like PCE versions of Raiden and Rtype there are better versions now available
I would put PS2/X first then Dreamcast for this reason. The Saturn and PCE do have great games but too many of them are elsewhere now and better.
Now if emulation did not exist things would be different and I would agree with your ranking. Even without MAME the PSX/2 is eating into those PCE and Saturn exclusives.
The only thing I would say is that the "best" changes periodically. I think you have reflected this well.
This is especially true of Arcade conversions; where the PCE or Saturn used to be seen as essential they are now less so as the PCB's are coming down in price and MAME is commonly used. Much as I really like PCE versions of Raiden and Rtype there are better versions now available
I would put PS2/X first then Dreamcast for this reason. The Saturn and PCE do have great games but too many of them are elsewhere now and better.
Now if emulation did not exist things would be different and I would agree with your ranking. Even without MAME the PSX/2 is eating into those PCE and Saturn exclusives.
There are many of us who simply don't care much for emulation for a vareity of reasons. I personally find it to be a hollow experience that can't match playing a game you own on an original console. I enjoy having a real shooting collection - not just a boatload of ROMs downloaded without effort. Emulation progress doesn't influence my listing above... but time and number of quality new games does influence the console rankings. There was a time when I would have put the Saturn first, PCE and PSX tied for second (ok... if I had to choose, I'd put PSX slightly above PCE but that's mostly due to Raiden Project/DX). Only new PS2 releases have put the PSX/PS2 combo (i.e. japanese PS2 or similiar setup) above the others.ill6 wrote:Now if emulation did not exist things would be different and I would agree with your ranking. Even without MAME the PSX/2 is eating into those PCE and Saturn exclusives.
llabnip - DaveB
Once more the light shines brightly in sector 2814.
Once more the light shines brightly in sector 2814.
There has been a similar thread some time ago:
http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113
But your analysis is nicer llabnip. However, it's a touchy matter and it can degenerate in another console war.
Of course my list would be different than yours, let's see why. Nowadays, any new system (for example PS2) can get a retrocollection with a good version of an old favorite. I won't take emulation into account, nor I will consider PS1 and PS2 as a single entity.
I tend to privilege "real exclusives" in my view. A system can currently feature a nice selection of "exclusives": that is, games that are on a system and not anywhere else. Ikaruga on DC was an home exclusive to the Dreamcast. But, being ported on NGC, it isn't anymore.
"Real exclusives" instead is a different concept. It means a game that is born on that system, developed with that system in mind. Thunderforce V is not a SS exclusive anymore, but it is still a SS "real exclusive": that is, a game originally conceived on SS. For giving us Thunderforce the SS gets a point in mly view, and so forth.
Of course, real exclusives aren't the only factor. Quantity, good conversions, decent amount of classic brands on it, and other elements are important too.
That said, I'll point out some random thoughts. There goes, in no particular order:
---
PCE Engine: it got many ports from arcade. Now these arcades (for example, Konami stuff) are "flawlessy" reproduced on 32bit Deluxe Packs. However, it is interesting to notice that PCE ports had to be noticeably different from the original coin-op, and not just "worse". Different as in "entirely redrawn graphics" and such.
However, the PCE has a good library of shmups developed for it, too.
weak spot: not much. This was developed with shmups in mind. Of course, ports couldn't match the coin-op graphics.
---
Saturn: This is the most unfortunate console. Not only because until recently it was considered "Absolute King", but also because the retrocollection trend is hurting it more than other systems. The SS almost did not give birth to a single shmup. The only exceptions we found in the other thread: Thunderforce V and Planet Joker. All the rest of Saturn shmups library is arcade ports. So for developers Saturn is more an host than an hardware to really develop on from scratch. Of course DDP gets an extra stage, and every other will get a different "mode" or a few "extras", but you get my point.
Besides, the Saturn managed to miss the only original Gradius episode that was developed in its years; and speaking of legendary brands, didn't get a Raiden, nor an R-Type.
The Saturn is only waiting to see its library stolen. It's greatest luck (so far?) is RSG exclusivity for home systems. But, I cannot see how hosting the awesome RSG can put it above PCE, Genesis or even the Snes, all of which gave birth to great shmups.
weak spot: almost no game developed specifically for it.
EDIT: I think besides retrocompilations, there is another recent trend which is hurting the Saturn. With the internet and online markets, the most hardcore among us basically passed from getting console media (which they often already had plenty) to get pcbs. Of course, the Saturn's library is more affected by this, as it is made mainly of conversions.
---
Dreamcast: too short life, but basically its problem is the same SS has. Has the best Ikaruga port, but sadly not an exclusive anymore. Still, although I would rank it at the bottom of the list, it's a lot better than current systems such as NGC or Xbox, and probably better than SS, since its library has not been sacked like SS's. Although, SS gave birth to TFV, so I'll rank it above DC.
weak spot: almost no game developed for it, small shmup library
---
Playstation: the most re-evaluated system. And the overall best. Not from a technical standpoint, but merely by looking at its lineup:
-best Gradius, best R-Type; both developed on the Psx;
-lots of excellent ports: Raiden DX, G-Darius, Raystorm Psikyo and Cave stuff;
-Some exclusive collections: Xevious 3D/G+, R-Types;
-Gave birth to: Zanac Neo, Einhander, Harmful Park, X2. These aren't masterworks, but at least they're here. Unlike SS, someone was developing on the system;
-it managed to steal an excellent Snes shmup (oshaberi paro) and Thunderforce V to SS;
The fact is, I don't think the combo with PS2 is necessary at all to PSone to claim supremacy.
weak spot: it relies heavily on import. many games are expensive.
---
PS2: besides being retrocompatible, there is no an extraordinary amount of stuff. Gradius V is excellent, but then again Gaiden was too. R-Type Final is good, but Delta was better. the list of shmups developed on the system stops here, more or less (fren-ze?). The rest is PS2 hosting some arcade conversions. This is mostly Cave stuff, and while it is nice, we're talking of straightforward ports a la SS. These will be probably released again on the next gen hardware, so it's no big deal.
If I consider PS2 alone, it cannot even claim a third or fourth spot because of this.
weak spot: retrocompatibility doesn't work 100%, very few shmups developed for it.
---
SNES: Good system. It gave birth to Axelay, R-Type III, Pop'n Twinbee, Super Aleste and Oshaberi Parodius. I count 5 shmups developed on this, quite a good percentage for a system that is usually considered unfitted for the genre.
Plus, it has a heavy modified Area 88 version.
Unfortunately when it comes to coin-op ports, it does not fare very well: Gradius III is a mess, Gokujou lacks the 2 player.
weak spot: slow processor: slowdowns. Also, extremely limited shmup lineup.
---
Megadrive: This would be the second best, tie with PCE+DUO. It has a sheer quantity factor to its side. Plus, many of the games were developed especially for it. And many are good.
Gave birth to: Thunderforce III, Thunderforce IV, Musha, Gynoug, Gleylancer, Crying and many others, really.
Arcade ports: it hosts quite a Toaplan library, and has a decent Raiden.
weak spot: no Konami support!
---
NES: another great one. Subpar ardcade ports can retain the original's playability or even compesate the graphic loss by adding different things (Lifeforce). Plus, a lot of original stuff: Recca, Gun*Nac, Crisis Force, TGL, Zombie Nation...
It's noteworthy that "original" shmups developed on a home system tend to be ported way less than coin-op generated stuff: Ten years from now we could get PS4 "All Psikyo DVD best Collection Vol.1: the Shooting" with all their games in a single dvd, and we'd still need an humble NES to play Crisis Force... I find this rather amusing.
weak spot: ports couldn't match their arcade counterparts, only a few developers could overcome its limitations. flickers.
Conclusions
I think you get the drill by now. Consoles cannot steal pride from arcades. Having an excellent Soukyugurentai as opposed to a crappy one is certainly a plus, but the merit is still PCB hardware's, not SS. But it's not just a matter of hardware specifics: after all, a Titan and a System 11 could be considered a single entity with their respective home systems. But even then, there's no denying that Gradius Gaiden is conceived as an home game, and viceversa.
Imho, the best merit a console, an home system can claim is that its hardware is used to create new shmups. I've nothing against arcade ports, and I take into account that a decent selection of arcade ports is required for a system. But playing Raiden DX on PSone made me realize that:
-no home port is flawless. You'll always find a "Recap" expert that wants the exact resolution and such. It's no wonder that many of these ports should not even be considered for purchase if one cannot have access to a tateable tv set.
-it can be en excellent port, and then kudos. But ports will come and go. These games live a life that exceeed the bounds of a system they're temporarily hosted by. A Snes will be always remembered more for Axelay than for Gradius III. Gradius III is already on PS2 in fact.
I admit my logic is not for everyone here. But nonetheless, following it would end like:
1. PS1
2. MD tie PCEDUO
3. SNES*
4. NES
5. PS2
6. SS
7. DC
*Putting SNES above NES is debatable. I guess that goes for personal tastes.
(edit:)I listed only the hardware llabnip mentioned in his list, for convenience. I was just interested writing down the method. Of course in the middle of that list there is plenty of room for MSX, Amiga, C64 and other systems.
-Basically, older hardware tends to be helped by the fact that shmups were a very popular genre back then.
-Also, you'll notice that *sales* tend to be a key factor as well. Top positions can be achieved by systems that sold more. The wider the user base, the better chance to have a tiny developer (for example "Sky Think Systems") to do a shmup.
units sold is an hardware's most important specification.
http://forum.shmups.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113
But your analysis is nicer llabnip. However, it's a touchy matter and it can degenerate in another console war.
Of course my list would be different than yours, let's see why. Nowadays, any new system (for example PS2) can get a retrocollection with a good version of an old favorite. I won't take emulation into account, nor I will consider PS1 and PS2 as a single entity.
I tend to privilege "real exclusives" in my view. A system can currently feature a nice selection of "exclusives": that is, games that are on a system and not anywhere else. Ikaruga on DC was an home exclusive to the Dreamcast. But, being ported on NGC, it isn't anymore.
"Real exclusives" instead is a different concept. It means a game that is born on that system, developed with that system in mind. Thunderforce V is not a SS exclusive anymore, but it is still a SS "real exclusive": that is, a game originally conceived on SS. For giving us Thunderforce the SS gets a point in mly view, and so forth.
Of course, real exclusives aren't the only factor. Quantity, good conversions, decent amount of classic brands on it, and other elements are important too.
That said, I'll point out some random thoughts. There goes, in no particular order:
---
PCE Engine: it got many ports from arcade. Now these arcades (for example, Konami stuff) are "flawlessy" reproduced on 32bit Deluxe Packs. However, it is interesting to notice that PCE ports had to be noticeably different from the original coin-op, and not just "worse". Different as in "entirely redrawn graphics" and such.
However, the PCE has a good library of shmups developed for it, too.
weak spot: not much. This was developed with shmups in mind. Of course, ports couldn't match the coin-op graphics.
---
Saturn: This is the most unfortunate console. Not only because until recently it was considered "Absolute King", but also because the retrocollection trend is hurting it more than other systems. The SS almost did not give birth to a single shmup. The only exceptions we found in the other thread: Thunderforce V and Planet Joker. All the rest of Saturn shmups library is arcade ports. So for developers Saturn is more an host than an hardware to really develop on from scratch. Of course DDP gets an extra stage, and every other will get a different "mode" or a few "extras", but you get my point.
Besides, the Saturn managed to miss the only original Gradius episode that was developed in its years; and speaking of legendary brands, didn't get a Raiden, nor an R-Type.
The Saturn is only waiting to see its library stolen. It's greatest luck (so far?) is RSG exclusivity for home systems. But, I cannot see how hosting the awesome RSG can put it above PCE, Genesis or even the Snes, all of which gave birth to great shmups.
weak spot: almost no game developed specifically for it.
EDIT: I think besides retrocompilations, there is another recent trend which is hurting the Saturn. With the internet and online markets, the most hardcore among us basically passed from getting console media (which they often already had plenty) to get pcbs. Of course, the Saturn's library is more affected by this, as it is made mainly of conversions.
---
Dreamcast: too short life, but basically its problem is the same SS has. Has the best Ikaruga port, but sadly not an exclusive anymore. Still, although I would rank it at the bottom of the list, it's a lot better than current systems such as NGC or Xbox, and probably better than SS, since its library has not been sacked like SS's. Although, SS gave birth to TFV, so I'll rank it above DC.
weak spot: almost no game developed for it, small shmup library
---
Playstation: the most re-evaluated system. And the overall best. Not from a technical standpoint, but merely by looking at its lineup:
-best Gradius, best R-Type; both developed on the Psx;
-lots of excellent ports: Raiden DX, G-Darius, Raystorm Psikyo and Cave stuff;
-Some exclusive collections: Xevious 3D/G+, R-Types;
-Gave birth to: Zanac Neo, Einhander, Harmful Park, X2. These aren't masterworks, but at least they're here. Unlike SS, someone was developing on the system;
-it managed to steal an excellent Snes shmup (oshaberi paro) and Thunderforce V to SS;
The fact is, I don't think the combo with PS2 is necessary at all to PSone to claim supremacy.
weak spot: it relies heavily on import. many games are expensive.
---
PS2: besides being retrocompatible, there is no an extraordinary amount of stuff. Gradius V is excellent, but then again Gaiden was too. R-Type Final is good, but Delta was better. the list of shmups developed on the system stops here, more or less (fren-ze?). The rest is PS2 hosting some arcade conversions. This is mostly Cave stuff, and while it is nice, we're talking of straightforward ports a la SS. These will be probably released again on the next gen hardware, so it's no big deal.
If I consider PS2 alone, it cannot even claim a third or fourth spot because of this.
weak spot: retrocompatibility doesn't work 100%, very few shmups developed for it.
---
SNES: Good system. It gave birth to Axelay, R-Type III, Pop'n Twinbee, Super Aleste and Oshaberi Parodius. I count 5 shmups developed on this, quite a good percentage for a system that is usually considered unfitted for the genre.
Plus, it has a heavy modified Area 88 version.
Unfortunately when it comes to coin-op ports, it does not fare very well: Gradius III is a mess, Gokujou lacks the 2 player.
weak spot: slow processor: slowdowns. Also, extremely limited shmup lineup.
---
Megadrive: This would be the second best, tie with PCE+DUO. It has a sheer quantity factor to its side. Plus, many of the games were developed especially for it. And many are good.
Gave birth to: Thunderforce III, Thunderforce IV, Musha, Gynoug, Gleylancer, Crying and many others, really.
Arcade ports: it hosts quite a Toaplan library, and has a decent Raiden.
weak spot: no Konami support!
---
NES: another great one. Subpar ardcade ports can retain the original's playability or even compesate the graphic loss by adding different things (Lifeforce). Plus, a lot of original stuff: Recca, Gun*Nac, Crisis Force, TGL, Zombie Nation...
It's noteworthy that "original" shmups developed on a home system tend to be ported way less than coin-op generated stuff: Ten years from now we could get PS4 "All Psikyo DVD best Collection Vol.1: the Shooting" with all their games in a single dvd, and we'd still need an humble NES to play Crisis Force... I find this rather amusing.
weak spot: ports couldn't match their arcade counterparts, only a few developers could overcome its limitations. flickers.
Conclusions
I think you get the drill by now. Consoles cannot steal pride from arcades. Having an excellent Soukyugurentai as opposed to a crappy one is certainly a plus, but the merit is still PCB hardware's, not SS. But it's not just a matter of hardware specifics: after all, a Titan and a System 11 could be considered a single entity with their respective home systems. But even then, there's no denying that Gradius Gaiden is conceived as an home game, and viceversa.
Imho, the best merit a console, an home system can claim is that its hardware is used to create new shmups. I've nothing against arcade ports, and I take into account that a decent selection of arcade ports is required for a system. But playing Raiden DX on PSone made me realize that:
-no home port is flawless. You'll always find a "Recap" expert that wants the exact resolution and such. It's no wonder that many of these ports should not even be considered for purchase if one cannot have access to a tateable tv set.
-it can be en excellent port, and then kudos. But ports will come and go. These games live a life that exceeed the bounds of a system they're temporarily hosted by. A Snes will be always remembered more for Axelay than for Gradius III. Gradius III is already on PS2 in fact.
I admit my logic is not for everyone here. But nonetheless, following it would end like:
1. PS1
2. MD tie PCEDUO
3. SNES*
4. NES
5. PS2
6. SS
7. DC
*Putting SNES above NES is debatable. I guess that goes for personal tastes.
(edit:)I listed only the hardware llabnip mentioned in his list, for convenience. I was just interested writing down the method. Of course in the middle of that list there is plenty of room for MSX, Amiga, C64 and other systems.
-Basically, older hardware tends to be helped by the fact that shmups were a very popular genre back then.
-Also, you'll notice that *sales* tend to be a key factor as well. Top positions can be achieved by systems that sold more. The wider the user base, the better chance to have a tiny developer (for example "Sky Think Systems") to do a shmup.
units sold is an hardware's most important specification.
Last edited by Turrican on Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
My favourite shoot consoles would be : (1=best)
3. MD
2. PCE
1. Saturn
I dont think there are enough shooters for the SFC to consider it a shmup console, same goes for the dreamcast, i have only played ikaruga but i dislike it as the chaining is too finicky and you cant concentrate on pure blasting action. Saturn wins, due to top qualtiy arcade style original games and conversions battle garegga - PCE and MD rank pretty closely in my opinion, pCE for games like Sapphire and MD for some of the hardest shooters ever made such as hellfire, kyukyoku tiger and tatsujin
3. MD
2. PCE
1. Saturn
I dont think there are enough shooters for the SFC to consider it a shmup console, same goes for the dreamcast, i have only played ikaruga but i dislike it as the chaining is too finicky and you cant concentrate on pure blasting action. Saturn wins, due to top qualtiy arcade style original games and conversions battle garegga - PCE and MD rank pretty closely in my opinion, pCE for games like Sapphire and MD for some of the hardest shooters ever made such as hellfire, kyukyoku tiger and tatsujin
For me,my shooter console of choice would definitely be *drumroll*
Sony Playstation 2.
Why,you say? It's got a very tasty shooter library of its own,PLUS those that are already available for the PSX. Lots of exclusive titles and tons of great ports definitely put this system at the very top of the shooter console heap.
Next up,Sega Dreamcast. Although there aren't as many shooters available for the system,what it does have are of pure quality.
Last,but certainly not least,the Sega Saturn. With its huge library of arcade ports,it's definitely one of the best console for shooting fans. The only problem I have with this system is the quality of some of its ports. While many are excellent ports of the original,a few just come way short (Gekirindan,DoDonpachi,Layer Section II,Kaitei Daisensou,etc.),perhaps due to its harware limitations.
B-
Sony Playstation 2.
Why,you say? It's got a very tasty shooter library of its own,PLUS those that are already available for the PSX. Lots of exclusive titles and tons of great ports definitely put this system at the very top of the shooter console heap.
Next up,Sega Dreamcast. Although there aren't as many shooters available for the system,what it does have are of pure quality.
Last,but certainly not least,the Sega Saturn. With its huge library of arcade ports,it's definitely one of the best console for shooting fans. The only problem I have with this system is the quality of some of its ports. While many are excellent ports of the original,a few just come way short (Gekirindan,DoDonpachi,Layer Section II,Kaitei Daisensou,etc.),perhaps due to its harware limitations.
B-
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SheSaidDutch
- Posts: 1092
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I can't really speak on the PC-Engine/CD seeing as how I've never played one (though I have played emulators). I hope to rectify this problem shortly, but for now, here's my breakdown on what all I have played.
Dreamcast:
As it is with the DC library as a whole, the DC shmup library is a pure journey into "quality over quantity". The DC doesn't have that much in shmups, but what it does have is pure gold (mostly). Border Down, IMO, is THE best horizontal ever made. Mars Matrix gives even Radiant Silvergun a run for its money. And everything else is fairly damn solid (Ikaruga, Trizeal, Giga Wing 1+2, Zero Gunner 2, Gunbird 2) aside from a few stinkers (Psyvarier 2, Shikigami no Shiro 2) and a little mediocrity (Chaos Field). So while the DC doesn't have many shmups, the few it does have whip the ass of pretty much most other console's entire libraries.
GBA:
Fairly weak shmupwise, especially given that its strongest offering is a subpar remake of a solid Genesis shmup (Steel Empire). Iridion II is a lot of fun and Gradius Galaxies is alright, but other than that it isn't really a shmupping machine.
Genesis:
I must confess, I haven't even played a fraction of the great shmups on this console. But from what I've read/have played, I feel it is a great console for horis with some excellent verts thrown in. The Thunder Force series rocks on it, as does Steel Empire, Gleylancer, Bio Hazard Battle, Eliminate Down, and Gaiares. During the SNES/Genesis days the Genesis was easily my choice console for shmups.
Master System:
It had some nice stuff on it (Fantasy Zone 1+2, Quartet, R-Type), but nothing TOO impressive and nothing that makes it stand out as a shmup console. Typically, I just regard is as a great machine for Sega's early early early arcade games.
NES:
It definitely has a lot of classics (Gradius, Sky Shark, Lifeforce, Xevious) and some shmups that are hard as nails (Abadox anyone?), but for the most part its mostly good for very basic/early shmups. Granted, it whips the shit out of the Master System, but when I think NES I'm typically thinking "platformers", despite some grade A quality shmups on it.
Playstation:
As far as I've played, it mostly focuses on classic series. G.Darius, Gradius Gaiden, and R-Type Delta are all neat, but aside from G.Darius they really don't offer that much more than their predecessors (meaning: You really aren't missing much if you just play the originals). The system has other neat exclusives of course (Einhander, ZanacXZanac), but some of its highest praised exclusives (i.e. Harmful Park), are flat out boring and mostly praised for their music/artistic style. As for "best ports", aside from the Pachis and Strikers 1945 II none of them are very good games to begin with (In the Hunt, Layer Section II), and in the port realm its typically the Saturn with the better versions of the better games (Darius Gaiden, Soukyugurentai, Strikers 1945, Shienryu).
PS2:
If you don't like Cave, its fairly pointless. If you like Cave, its God's gift to you. Other than that, you just have Psikyo collections and a million variations of Psyvarier. Gradius V to me is the only impressive exclusive on the machine. Also the Gradius III/IV pack is nice for anyone who wants their ass kicked.
Saturn:
I think people are starting to get jaded towards the Saturn because of how long it "was considered king of shmups", so let me point a few things out:
1. The Saturn shares 29 shmups with the PS1/PS2, 8 of which are superior on Saturn and 6 of which are superior on the PS1/PS2 and 15 of which are equal on both. I would also like to point out that three of the games that are better on the PS1 are fairly craptacular (In the Hunt, Layer Section 2, Time Bokohan), whereas all the games with better Saturn versions were at least somewhat good (the worst being Shienryu).
2. While the Saturn is "losing" games to collections, rarely (if ever) have these been on par with the Saturn version and I'm yet to know of this generating a better version. Darius Gaiden and Metal Black on Taito Memories? Unless they add new levels they won't be better than the Saturn version since the Saturn versions are perfect. Gunbird? Supposedly looks/sounds better on Saturn. Sengoku Blaede on PS2 is equal the Saturn, only its missing a character or two. So no, the Saturn is not losing anything to collections as far as I can tell.
That said, it amazes me how quickly you people seem to forget about the Saturn's strong points. Its almost like everyone thinks Radiant Silvergun is the ONLY reason to own a Saturn. And while its probably the best (I've spent more time with RS than I would even think about spending with every other shmup I've ever played combined), lets not completely write off Raizing (can any console contest the Saturn as THE dominate Raizing console? Fuck no.), Tecno Soft (ditto. And prior to Border Down I felt Hyper Duel was the best hori ever made), Success (Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang, both of which I would say are the best of the Cotton series, not to mention Guardian Force which is a solid little shmup itself), and Batsugun, which, IMO, is better than everything Cave has ever made combined.
The Saturn has balance, and thats something I feel most other consoles lack. The Genesis was great for horis, but weak on verts (at least IMO), the SNES was basically the same way, only lesser on horis and even weaker on verts. The Playstation/PS2 is/are great if you like Seibu, Konami, Cave and Psikyo (and if you noticed, I didn't even list Psikyo up there despite the fact that some of Psikyo's best titles (Sengoku Blaede, Gunbird, Strikers 1945) are still best on the Saturn), but if aside from a handful of exclusives (G.Darius, ZanacXZanac), there's really nothing good outside those 4 companies for you. And you still have a solid port of DDP, only it really doesn't matter to me because I'm too busy playing the good original exclusives like Radiant Silvergun, Game Tengoku, Galactic Attack, Batsugun, and Battle Garegga or the ports that are better such as Darius Gaiden, Soukyugurentai, Thunder Force V, etc.
Basically, with the Saturn you get the best of all worlds. You get Cave's "first" (technically? Maybe not) game which some would contest is their best (Batsugun); you get the best of Raizing, Tecno Soft, Success and Taito; you get still a decent port of Dodonpachi; you get the best versions of Gunbird, Sengoku Blaede, and Strikers 1945; and you STILL get a nice serving of Konami through the Konami Deluxe Packs; and last but not least: RADIANT-FUCKING-SILVERGUN. No other console can boast/match that as far as I'm concerned.
SNES:
I never really liked the SNES as a shmup machine. Granted, I don't think I ever had THAT MANY shmups on it, but nothing I've played from it really stood out to me. Super R-Type was OK, Axelay was awesome, and Super Aleste was cool as hell. And I think that was the extent of my shmupping experience on the SNES.
At any rate, my rating for consoles would be:
8. GBA - Lacking much of anything great shmupwise.
7. Master System - Has Quartet, Fantasy Zone 2, and the best R-Type. That is all.
6. SNES - Some truly classic shmups, but not really enough to stand up to anything (at least, that I've played).
5. NES - Tons of classics, but obviously nothing modern.
4. PS1/PS2 - Like I said, great for a few companies but outside of the main 4 exclusives are kind of "spotty" as for how good they are.
3. Genesis - A bunch of great exclusives, most of which are highly original and fun.
2. Dreamcast - The best exclusives ever (Border Down, Mars Matrix), backed up by a very solid group of "good" shmups. Has a few bad apples, but mostly a golden library.
1. Saturn - Balance. A quality quantity. Is home to one of the best shmups/games ever made, has the best manic/grandaddy of all manics, is the best machine for two of the best shmupping companies ever (Raizing and Tecno Soft), and still provides for Psikyo fans and has a little bit of Cave love on it.
Dreamcast:
As it is with the DC library as a whole, the DC shmup library is a pure journey into "quality over quantity". The DC doesn't have that much in shmups, but what it does have is pure gold (mostly). Border Down, IMO, is THE best horizontal ever made. Mars Matrix gives even Radiant Silvergun a run for its money. And everything else is fairly damn solid (Ikaruga, Trizeal, Giga Wing 1+2, Zero Gunner 2, Gunbird 2) aside from a few stinkers (Psyvarier 2, Shikigami no Shiro 2) and a little mediocrity (Chaos Field). So while the DC doesn't have many shmups, the few it does have whip the ass of pretty much most other console's entire libraries.
GBA:
Fairly weak shmupwise, especially given that its strongest offering is a subpar remake of a solid Genesis shmup (Steel Empire). Iridion II is a lot of fun and Gradius Galaxies is alright, but other than that it isn't really a shmupping machine.
Genesis:
I must confess, I haven't even played a fraction of the great shmups on this console. But from what I've read/have played, I feel it is a great console for horis with some excellent verts thrown in. The Thunder Force series rocks on it, as does Steel Empire, Gleylancer, Bio Hazard Battle, Eliminate Down, and Gaiares. During the SNES/Genesis days the Genesis was easily my choice console for shmups.
Master System:
It had some nice stuff on it (Fantasy Zone 1+2, Quartet, R-Type), but nothing TOO impressive and nothing that makes it stand out as a shmup console. Typically, I just regard is as a great machine for Sega's early early early arcade games.
NES:
It definitely has a lot of classics (Gradius, Sky Shark, Lifeforce, Xevious) and some shmups that are hard as nails (Abadox anyone?), but for the most part its mostly good for very basic/early shmups. Granted, it whips the shit out of the Master System, but when I think NES I'm typically thinking "platformers", despite some grade A quality shmups on it.
Playstation:
As far as I've played, it mostly focuses on classic series. G.Darius, Gradius Gaiden, and R-Type Delta are all neat, but aside from G.Darius they really don't offer that much more than their predecessors (meaning: You really aren't missing much if you just play the originals). The system has other neat exclusives of course (Einhander, ZanacXZanac), but some of its highest praised exclusives (i.e. Harmful Park), are flat out boring and mostly praised for their music/artistic style. As for "best ports", aside from the Pachis and Strikers 1945 II none of them are very good games to begin with (In the Hunt, Layer Section II), and in the port realm its typically the Saturn with the better versions of the better games (Darius Gaiden, Soukyugurentai, Strikers 1945, Shienryu).
PS2:
If you don't like Cave, its fairly pointless. If you like Cave, its God's gift to you. Other than that, you just have Psikyo collections and a million variations of Psyvarier. Gradius V to me is the only impressive exclusive on the machine. Also the Gradius III/IV pack is nice for anyone who wants their ass kicked.
Saturn:
I think people are starting to get jaded towards the Saturn because of how long it "was considered king of shmups", so let me point a few things out:
1. The Saturn shares 29 shmups with the PS1/PS2, 8 of which are superior on Saturn and 6 of which are superior on the PS1/PS2 and 15 of which are equal on both. I would also like to point out that three of the games that are better on the PS1 are fairly craptacular (In the Hunt, Layer Section 2, Time Bokohan), whereas all the games with better Saturn versions were at least somewhat good (the worst being Shienryu).
2. While the Saturn is "losing" games to collections, rarely (if ever) have these been on par with the Saturn version and I'm yet to know of this generating a better version. Darius Gaiden and Metal Black on Taito Memories? Unless they add new levels they won't be better than the Saturn version since the Saturn versions are perfect. Gunbird? Supposedly looks/sounds better on Saturn. Sengoku Blaede on PS2 is equal the Saturn, only its missing a character or two. So no, the Saturn is not losing anything to collections as far as I can tell.
That said, it amazes me how quickly you people seem to forget about the Saturn's strong points. Its almost like everyone thinks Radiant Silvergun is the ONLY reason to own a Saturn. And while its probably the best (I've spent more time with RS than I would even think about spending with every other shmup I've ever played combined), lets not completely write off Raizing (can any console contest the Saturn as THE dominate Raizing console? Fuck no.), Tecno Soft (ditto. And prior to Border Down I felt Hyper Duel was the best hori ever made), Success (Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang, both of which I would say are the best of the Cotton series, not to mention Guardian Force which is a solid little shmup itself), and Batsugun, which, IMO, is better than everything Cave has ever made combined.
The Saturn has balance, and thats something I feel most other consoles lack. The Genesis was great for horis, but weak on verts (at least IMO), the SNES was basically the same way, only lesser on horis and even weaker on verts. The Playstation/PS2 is/are great if you like Seibu, Konami, Cave and Psikyo (and if you noticed, I didn't even list Psikyo up there despite the fact that some of Psikyo's best titles (Sengoku Blaede, Gunbird, Strikers 1945) are still best on the Saturn), but if aside from a handful of exclusives (G.Darius, ZanacXZanac), there's really nothing good outside those 4 companies for you. And you still have a solid port of DDP, only it really doesn't matter to me because I'm too busy playing the good original exclusives like Radiant Silvergun, Game Tengoku, Galactic Attack, Batsugun, and Battle Garegga or the ports that are better such as Darius Gaiden, Soukyugurentai, Thunder Force V, etc.
Basically, with the Saturn you get the best of all worlds. You get Cave's "first" (technically? Maybe not) game which some would contest is their best (Batsugun); you get the best of Raizing, Tecno Soft, Success and Taito; you get still a decent port of Dodonpachi; you get the best versions of Gunbird, Sengoku Blaede, and Strikers 1945; and you STILL get a nice serving of Konami through the Konami Deluxe Packs; and last but not least: RADIANT-FUCKING-SILVERGUN. No other console can boast/match that as far as I'm concerned.
SNES:
I never really liked the SNES as a shmup machine. Granted, I don't think I ever had THAT MANY shmups on it, but nothing I've played from it really stood out to me. Super R-Type was OK, Axelay was awesome, and Super Aleste was cool as hell. And I think that was the extent of my shmupping experience on the SNES.
At any rate, my rating for consoles would be:
8. GBA - Lacking much of anything great shmupwise.
7. Master System - Has Quartet, Fantasy Zone 2, and the best R-Type. That is all.
6. SNES - Some truly classic shmups, but not really enough to stand up to anything (at least, that I've played).
5. NES - Tons of classics, but obviously nothing modern.
4. PS1/PS2 - Like I said, great for a few companies but outside of the main 4 exclusives are kind of "spotty" as for how good they are.
3. Genesis - A bunch of great exclusives, most of which are highly original and fun.
2. Dreamcast - The best exclusives ever (Border Down, Mars Matrix), backed up by a very solid group of "good" shmups. Has a few bad apples, but mostly a golden library.
1. Saturn - Balance. A quality quantity. Is home to one of the best shmups/games ever made, has the best manic/grandaddy of all manics, is the best machine for two of the best shmupping companies ever (Raizing and Tecno Soft), and still provides for Psikyo fans and has a little bit of Cave love on it.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!!
Good points, all, jp.jp wrote:I think people are starting to get jaded towards the Saturn because of how long it "was considered king of shmups", so let me point a few things out:
Still... I think Turrican is right: time has not been kind to the Saturn. Games that it had exclusively are now showing up on the PS2 - and that trend will likely continue. The games don't have to be better - but decent ports of the same games combined with the great exclusives (Zanac Neo, Gradius Gaiden, Einhander, R-Type Final, Namco Packs) plus the quality ports that never saw light on another system (Toaplan Shooting Battle, Raiden DX, G-Darius, etc) can be argued to diminish the position of the Saturn in the shooter pantheon. The Playstation hardware has the benefit of being popular - and that means that it is a magnet for new development, new ports and retro compilations that may continue to reduce the number of console-exclusive Saturn games (i.e. games that are only on the Saturn outside the arcade/PCB experience).
I'd strongly recommend all the consoles listed - they are cheap enough and you get the best of everything!
Last edited by llabnip on Wed May 11, 2005 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
llabnip - DaveB
Once more the light shines brightly in sector 2814.
Once more the light shines brightly in sector 2814.
Great thread llabnip, and a great analysis (especially given that I know you aren't precisely a lover of the PS2).
And yeah, I can't really take emulation into account, it just isn't the same (for me anyway). My list would be the same or at least very similar to yours with the PS2 coming out on top now. Just too many great shooters there.
Still, all that would have to change is a sega system that played genesis, saturn and DC and THAT would be the best console...
And yeah, I can't really take emulation into account, it just isn't the same (for me anyway). My list would be the same or at least very similar to yours with the PS2 coming out on top now. Just too many great shooters there.
Still, all that would have to change is a sega system that played genesis, saturn and DC and THAT would be the best console...
SHMUP sale page.Randorama wrote:ban CMoon for being a closet Jerry Falwell cockmonster/Ann Coulter fan, Nijska a bronie (ack! The horror!), and Ed Oscuro being unable to post 100-word arguments without writing 3-pages posts.
Eugenics: you know it's right!
Yeah, I agree. I must say, I'm not a Saturn hater, far from that. I often heard that SS was the best for shmups, I thought that was a bit of a disservice from fans, because there are so many things great about SS and it seems no one remember them and just focuses on it being "Shmup King". Often it doesn't even sound as a compliment, more like "hey, at least in this is king"llabnip wrote:I'd strongly recommend all the consoles listed - they are cheap enough and you get the best of everything!
Also, my list is very subjective. I wrote that, it makes sense only if you're willing to accept the real exclusives criteria as a very important factor.
Of course I recommend all the above mentioned systems too. If only because changing is good; changing perspective, holding a different shaped joypad and such, are things that help being open-minded.
Besides, I just wanted to write about the importance "real exclusives" have in my vision, and not really doing a complete ranking.
Let me quote CMoon from the other thread:
CMoon wrote:I don't think it is possible to talk about a single console being best for shmups anymore than it is possible to talk about what single food you'd like to eat for the rest of your life.
I agree with that 100%
Turrican wrote:Yeah, I agree. I must say, I'm not a Saturn hater, far from that. I often heard that SS was the best for shmups, I thought that was a bit of a disservice from fans, because there are so many things great about SS and it seems no one remember them and just focuses on it being "Shmup King". Often it doesn't even sound as a compliment, more like "hey, at least in this is king"llabnip wrote:I'd strongly recommend all the consoles listed - they are cheap enough and you get the best of everything!
I definitely agree with that. Most people I know typically regard the Saturn as a "only worth it if you're insane like jp and play those expensive 2D shooters", while the Saturn really had a lot more going for it than that.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!!
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BulletMagnet
- Posts: 14159
- Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:05 am
- Location: Wherever.
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Hee hee, jp, I could almost hear a Sousa march playing in the background as I read your above Saturn rant. I could picture you standing on a stage someplace, gesturing wildly, speaking into a microphone over a crowd of thousands:
"The Saturn contains the best of both worlds!"
*bwaaa-ba-da-BA-DA-DA-BAAA!*
"You get the best of Cave!"
*bum-bum-da-dum...*
"The best of Raizing!"
*BA-BA-BUMMMM...*
"The best of Technosoft!"
*Sha-da-da-da-DUMMM....*
"And Radiant..."
*drumroll begins*
"Effing..."
*drumroll intensifies, orchestra crescendoes*
"Silvergun!"
*cymbal crash, confetti drops from the sky, fireworks go off in the distance, fighter jets fly overhead, etc.*
"The Saturn contains the best of both worlds!"
*bwaaa-ba-da-BA-DA-DA-BAAA!*
"You get the best of Cave!"
*bum-bum-da-dum...*
"The best of Raizing!"
*BA-BA-BUMMMM...*
"The best of Technosoft!"
*Sha-da-da-da-DUMMM....*
"And Radiant..."
*drumroll begins*
"Effing..."
*drumroll intensifies, orchestra crescendoes*
"Silvergun!"
*cymbal crash, confetti drops from the sky, fireworks go off in the distance, fighter jets fly overhead, etc.*
BulletMagnet wrote:Hee hee, jp, I could almost hear a Sousa march playing in the background as I read your above Saturn rant. I could picture you standing on a stage someplace, gesturing wildly, speaking into a microphone over a crowd of thousands:
"The Saturn contains the best of both worlds!"
*bwaaa-ba-da-BA-DA-DA-BAAA!*
"You get the best of Cave!"
*bum-bum-da-dum...*
"The best of Raizing!"
*BA-BA-BUMMMM...*
"The best of Technosoft!"
*Sha-da-da-da-DUMMM....*
"And Radiant..."
*drumroll begins*
"Effing..."
*drumroll intensifies, orchestra crescendoes*
"Silvergun!"
*cymbal crash, confetti drops from the sky, fireworks go off in the distance, fighter jets fly overhead, etc.*
I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes... that was truly awesome.
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!!!!
Can't say I didn't expect this coming from a guy who recently dropped $1,000+ on a Saturnjp wrote: Saturn:
I think people are starting to get jaded towards the Saturn because of how long it "was considered king of shmups", so let me point a few things out:
1. The Saturn shares 29 shmups with the PS1/PS2, 8 of which are superior on Saturn and 6 of which are superior on the PS1/PS2 and 15 of which are equal on both. I would also like to point out that three of the games that are better on the PS1 are fairly craptacular (In the Hunt, Layer Section 2, Time Bokohan), whereas all the games with better Saturn versions were at least somewhat good (the worst being Shienryu).
2. While the Saturn is "losing" games to collections, rarely (if ever) have these been on par with the Saturn version and I'm yet to know of this generating a better version. Darius Gaiden and Metal Black on Taito Memories? Unless they add new levels they won't be better than the Saturn version since the Saturn versions are perfect. Gunbird? Supposedly looks/sounds better on Saturn. Sengoku Blaede on PS2 is equal the Saturn, only its missing a character or two. So no, the Saturn is not losing anything to collections as far as I can tell.
That said, it amazes me how quickly you people seem to forget about the Saturn's strong points. Its almost like everyone thinks Radiant Silvergun is the ONLY reason to own a Saturn. And while its probably the best (I've spent more time with RS than I would even think about spending with every other shmup I've ever played combined), lets not completely write off Raizing (can any console contest the Saturn as THE dominate Raizing console? Fuck no.), Tecno Soft (ditto. And prior to Border Down I felt Hyper Duel was the best hori ever made), Success (Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang, both of which I would say are the best of the Cotton series, not to mention Guardian Force which is a solid little shmup itself), and Batsugun, which, IMO, is better than everything Cave has ever made combined.
The Saturn has balance, and thats something I feel most other consoles lack. The Genesis was great for horis, but weak on verts (at least IMO), the SNES was basically the same way, only lesser on horis and even weaker on verts. The Playstation/PS2 is/are great if you like Seibu, Konami, Cave and Psikyo (and if you noticed, I didn't even list Psikyo up there despite the fact that some of Psikyo's best titles (Sengoku Blaede, Gunbird, Strikers 1945) are still best on the Saturn), but if aside from a handful of exclusives (G.Darius, ZanacXZanac), there's really nothing good outside those 4 companies for you. And you still have a solid port of DDP, only it really doesn't matter to me because I'm too busy playing the good original exclusives like Radiant Silvergun, Game Tengoku, Galactic Attack, Batsugun, and Battle Garegga or the ports that are better such as Darius Gaiden, Soukyugurentai, Thunder Force V, etc.
Basically, with the Saturn you get the best of all worlds. You get Cave's "first" (technically? Maybe not) game which some would contest is their best (Batsugun); you get the best of Raizing, Tecno Soft, Success and Taito; you get still a decent port of Dodonpachi; you get the best versions of Gunbird, Sengoku Blaede, and Strikers 1945; and you STILL get a nice serving of Konami through the Konami Deluxe Packs; and last but not least: RADIANT-FUCKING-SILVERGUN. No other console can boast/match that as far as I'm concerned.
1. Saturn - Balance. A quality quantity. Is home to one of the best shmups/games ever made, has the best manic/grandaddy of all manics, is the best machine for two of the best shmupping companies ever (Raizing and Tecno Soft), and still provides for Psikyo fans and has a little bit of Cave love on it.
B-
Considering that I don't want to drop more than $10 for a game ($30 is my ABSOLUTE maximum). I find that I play most of my shooters on the NES. Based solely on quantity of easy to find and cheap North American games, it reigns supreme.
While I love the Saturn and the games I have for it, I find that a great deal of the titles are out of my price range.
While I love the Saturn and the games I have for it, I find that a great deal of the titles are out of my price range.
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TWITCHDOCTOR
- Posts: 1479
- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:42 pm
- Location: South Texas USA
- Contact:
I've always enjoyed owning multiple consoles. Back in the day there were more exclusive titles, like Bonk,Sonic,Mario...get my meaning?
My first console was Pong, it only had three games to select from. All of which were "pong-like" anyway.
I usually only had one console at a time, but when I was in my later teens, had more money to buy things I wanted, I ended up with the "basic three" in no time. With at least 20 games for each...
Turbo Grafx 16/Genesis/ Super Nintendo.
Still to this day, I enjoy my XBOX just as much as I do my Saturn.
There might be less "exclusive" titles today, but there are still good reasons to own more than 1 console...that is, if you enjoy playing video games.
BTW: I never could afford an Intellevision...always thought they were cool though.
Still, Atari offered the best "play-control". As much as I liked Coleco Vision(Yea, I had one of those) and Mattel's machine, nothing at that time could beat a JOYSTICK!!! (not to mention analog paddles)I don't know what the others were thinking, with their round disc Cell-phone wannabee thumb pads.
Huh, they even had those cool "curlie-que" telephone wires!!
My first console was Pong, it only had three games to select from. All of which were "pong-like" anyway.
I usually only had one console at a time, but when I was in my later teens, had more money to buy things I wanted, I ended up with the "basic three" in no time. With at least 20 games for each...
Turbo Grafx 16/Genesis/ Super Nintendo.
Still to this day, I enjoy my XBOX just as much as I do my Saturn.
There might be less "exclusive" titles today, but there are still good reasons to own more than 1 console...that is, if you enjoy playing video games.
BTW: I never could afford an Intellevision...always thought they were cool though.
Still, Atari offered the best "play-control". As much as I liked Coleco Vision(Yea, I had one of those) and Mattel's machine, nothing at that time could beat a JOYSTICK!!! (not to mention analog paddles)I don't know what the others were thinking, with their round disc Cell-phone wannabee thumb pads.
Huh, they even had those cool "curlie-que" telephone wires!!
Hey,hey,hey. You're forgetting Power Strike II on the SMS, very solid stuff from Compile.
GameGear has a few good titles too (GG Aleste, GG Aleste II etc) but nothing that'd rival the best shooter consoles ofcourse.
My favourite shooting console has to be Mega Drive (TF2-4, Slap Fight, Gaiares, Verytex, Gleylancer, Eliminate Down etc.), but I need to play more games from the SS and PCE library before I can really decide.
GameGear has a few good titles too (GG Aleste, GG Aleste II etc) but nothing that'd rival the best shooter consoles ofcourse.
My favourite shooting console has to be Mega Drive (TF2-4, Slap Fight, Gaiares, Verytex, Gleylancer, Eliminate Down etc.), but I need to play more games from the SS and PCE library before I can really decide.
[quote="llabnip"]
There are many of us who simply don't care much for emulation for a vareity of reasons. I personally find it to be a hollow experience that can't match playing a game you own on an original console. I enjoy having a real shooting collection - not just a boatload of ROMs downloaded without effort. ..quote]
I hear you and am also in the owning a collection school of thought. I don't own any roms of console games (prefering to buy them) but do have some roms of arcade games until I can get the PCB.
I think other people have made my point much more clearly but the PCE and Saturn arcade libraries have been diminished by further releases on later consoles.
My point with ROMs is that there was a time when arcade perfect (or as near to perfect) was a real selling point and this really helped the PCE and the Saturn but now I am not going to play Raiden on PCE (as an example) because the MAME version is better (its nearer arcade perfect).
I think the point of original and exclusive games is the best judge of a system.
There are many of us who simply don't care much for emulation for a vareity of reasons. I personally find it to be a hollow experience that can't match playing a game you own on an original console. I enjoy having a real shooting collection - not just a boatload of ROMs downloaded without effort. ..quote]
I hear you and am also in the owning a collection school of thought. I don't own any roms of console games (prefering to buy them) but do have some roms of arcade games until I can get the PCB.
I think other people have made my point much more clearly but the PCE and Saturn arcade libraries have been diminished by further releases on later consoles.
My point with ROMs is that there was a time when arcade perfect (or as near to perfect) was a real selling point and this really helped the PCE and the Saturn but now I am not going to play Raiden on PCE (as an example) because the MAME version is better (its nearer arcade perfect).
I think the point of original and exclusive games is the best judge of a system.
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Herr Schatten
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I was just about pointing that out. IMO, Power Strike II is worth buying a Master System for, at least for a Compile fan.zinger wrote:Hey,hey,hey. You're forgetting Power Strike II on the SMS, very solid stuff from Compile.
Sure, that doesn't make the Master System a shooter console at all, but with the Power Strikes, the Fantasy Zones (part I is different from the arcade, which makes it a refreshing change in experience, and part II is absolutely sweet) and a very fine port of R-Type it has at least a handfull of nice titles on its list.
I did not forget SMS. Power Strike II is probably Compile's best shmups ever.Turrican wrote:I listed only the hardware llabnip mentioned in his list, for convenience. I was just interested writing down the method. Of course in the middle of that list there is plenty of room for MSX, Amiga, C64 and other systems.
Here's for the sake of completion:
SMS= a pair of real exclusives, Power Strike II being excellent. A bunch of nice ports, with R-Type having a unique feeling and an exclusive stage.
I would rank it below Saturn (it has very few shmups after all) but above DC, for giving us Power Strike II.
Of course, when it comes to arcade ports, nothing beats owning the actual PCB.
But not all of us (including me) can afford to build their arcade now can they?
Plus, I like to sit on a nice comfy chair with a comfortable pad while I game.
Saturn is a great console if you are into shmups, it has the Holy Grail of shmups (that goes for ridiculous prices on Ebay ), plenty of varity for everyone, can't go wrong with a Saturn. I'm still waiting for mine, however. 
I'm beginning to think my US PSTwo is a huge waste of money, all I ever play on it is Gradius V and my old PS1 US release shmups on it.
But not all of us (including me) can afford to build their arcade now can they?
Plus, I like to sit on a nice comfy chair with a comfortable pad while I game.
Saturn is a great console if you are into shmups, it has the Holy Grail of shmups (that goes for ridiculous prices on Ebay
), plenty of varity for everyone, can't go wrong with a Saturn. I'm still waiting for mine, however. I'm beginning to think my US PSTwo is a huge waste of money, all I ever play on it is Gradius V and my old PS1 US release shmups on it.
Shmups: It's all about blowing stuff up!
If Batsugun, Thunderforce goldpack 2 and Battle Garegga got ported to ps2, I could sell my Saturn. Not at all likely, but true.
Those are the only compelling exclusives left on the system, imo. Sengoku Blade, Gunbird, and Strikers 1 may be better on it, but I honestly doubt there are any differences between the strikers 1 port on psx and that's the only one of those three that I'd care about. Ps2 has Dragon Blaze and Daioujou and they're better than all those.
Saturn also suffers from downsampled sound effects in nearly every game...PSX does sometimes, but with Saturn it's to a much greater degree.
Ps2 also has fast loads for PSX games which is a biggie...doubtless Street Fighter Collection is better on ps2 now because of that (it might have been before given that the Saturn version is probably the same as PSX's, just with downsampled sound effects).
I'm not really into Panzer Dragoon series or RS either. Respectable games with good music, gameplay wise there's stuff I'd rather play thoe.
Now that the controller's been 'ported,' games keep getting ported, I dunno. Just seems like there's less and less reasons to own a Saturn. The ones that are there though, make it worth owning.
Not trying to start a console war i.e., claiming superiority over the other. PS2 just better fits my preferences at this particular point in time...so it's better for me
Now if only the Sexy Parodius port wasn't so fuxing expensive :/
Those are the only compelling exclusives left on the system, imo. Sengoku Blade, Gunbird, and Strikers 1 may be better on it, but I honestly doubt there are any differences between the strikers 1 port on psx and that's the only one of those three that I'd care about. Ps2 has Dragon Blaze and Daioujou and they're better than all those.
Saturn also suffers from downsampled sound effects in nearly every game...PSX does sometimes, but with Saturn it's to a much greater degree.
Ps2 also has fast loads for PSX games which is a biggie...doubtless Street Fighter Collection is better on ps2 now because of that (it might have been before given that the Saturn version is probably the same as PSX's, just with downsampled sound effects).
I'm not really into Panzer Dragoon series or RS either. Respectable games with good music, gameplay wise there's stuff I'd rather play thoe.
Now that the controller's been 'ported,' games keep getting ported, I dunno. Just seems like there's less and less reasons to own a Saturn. The ones that are there though, make it worth owning.
Not trying to start a console war i.e., claiming superiority over the other. PS2 just better fits my preferences at this particular point in time...so it's better for me
Now if only the Sexy Parodius port wasn't so fuxing expensive :/
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Tony Gradius
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Re: Ranking the Shooter Consoles...
YES! I never read an opinion which felt so true, objective and so much like a thinking man`s opinion to the shmup console ranking question.llabnip wrote:There was once a time when people stuck by a single console. You were either an Atari guy, or an Intellivsion guy (or the upperclass Colecovision guy!). Later it was Nintendo or Sega (take your pick of consoles to battle on… NES, SMS, SNES, Genesis/Megadrive, etc). Then it was a 3-way race… Nintendo, Sega and the newcomer Playstation. Only a handful of folks could afford to have multiple consoles and buy games for them all. But times have changed… at least for scrolling shooter enthusiasts and retro gamers like me. Nowadays, there is no logical reason not to own multiple consoles from the previous generation (cost is still a factor for the current generation consoles). Used consoles are cheap enough and the games can still be had aftermarket – often for short money. There can be no convincing debate about whether you should have a SNES or a Megadrive – you need both if you are a shooting fan. Same goes true for a PSX and Saturn – there are simply too many good exclusive titles and tiles that are done better on one system vs. the other to ignore having them in your arsenal.
But one must start somewhere… as cheap as the consoles are, there clearly are better choices to start with. One probably wouldn’t just buy a TI-99 to play shooters on… there are only 3 and none are that stunning (though Parsec is still great). So I’m attempting to put down some random thoughts and a few guidelines for those that may be a little confused with the plethora of consoles to choose from. It also may spark a bit of discussion which is always good. I’ll start by saying that your priority in obtaining consoles to play shooters on will be different from mine depending on what kinds of shooters you enjoy – manic types are not likely to enjoy what the PS1 has to offer but may enjoy the Dreamcast or PS2 offerings. Classic or retro-style shooter fans may enjoy the Saturn far more than the Dreamcast.
With that said, here are my opinions on the subject… let’s start in order of least desirable to most desirable with the caveat that all of these systems are highly recommended for the shooter fan. I’m going to skip most of the 8-bit consoles except for the NES – as much as I love the Atari, Colecovision and Intellivision, you can probably get buy without one for your shooting needs. I'm also leaving off the Gamecube and XBOX - there is just not enough exclusive shooters to recommend them above any in the list at this time.
7. Nintendo – NES. Here we have a wide variety of classic shooters to choose from. Most are arcade conversions – games like Sky Shark, Galaga, Gradius, Life Force and Twinbee are all well represented. Some console only games appeared here such as Zanac, Star Force and Gunnac . Most of the games are inexpensive and are easy to find… but they are not nearly as polished as some of the shooters on later consoles. No fancy graphics and the sound is often below average… but there are some good times to be had on the NES. Recommended for those that enjoy classic shooters and can look past somewhat dated graphics and sound.
6. Nintendo Super NES. The SNES is a wonderful platform for a wide variety of games… RPGs and Platform games shine here. But Shooters didn’t fare as well – though there are still quite a number of quality titles on the system. A few Arcade conversions, but also a boatload of exclusives and console-only shooters. Axelay, UN Squadron, Space Megaforce, Gradius III and R-Type III are all solid titles. It also boasts the best Macross shooter on any console. Good support by Konami (Gradius and Parodius titles) helps this console out quite a bit. Titles are fairly easy to come by and nothing is overly expensive.
5. Sega Dreamcast. The Dreamcast died too quickly, IMO. Nothing saddens me more than the demise of Sega’s hardware/console division. But the little white box that could is still running fairly strong. Trizeal was just released last month and there are a number of great shooters for the system. Most can be had fairly reasonably priced… some of the more recent shooters with smaller print runs (i.e. Border Down) are now starting to go up in price, but they still can be had. Most of the shooters on this system are in the manic category… though a few classics are here. A bit top-heavy with Takumi shooters (Mars Matrix, GigaWing 1, 2) but a few amazing conversions like Psikyo’s Zero Gunner 2 and Ikaruga make it as system worth owning. Some of these games have since been ported to other consoles – lessening the need for the Dreamcast. But it’s still a solid choice – and the dozen or so shooters that we got for the system are all of above-average quality.
4. Sega Genesis aka Megadrive. The Megadrive lacked the sound and graphics prowess of the SNES but it boasted a faster CPU and that’s very helpful to shooters where lots of bullets tend to slow things down. Shooters really got great treatment on the Megadrive – from sidescrolling masterpieces like Thunderforce III and VI to Compile’s vertical tour-de-force in MUSHA Aleste. Lots of Toaplan goodness as well – there were more Toaplan games released for this system than any other (the PCE is a close second). Tons of classic games here – with a few really pushing what could be done on a 16-bit system (TF4 is an example of maybe going for too much but it’s great to see what they could do with the platform). Highly recommended for the classic shooter fan – there are literally dozens of shooters in the cheap range (i.e. $10 or less each) and for some reason you can find a lot more of these complete with manuals and cases (vs. the SNES which don’t often have the boxes – which suck anyway).
3. PC Engine – PCE. The PC Engine is one hell of a shooting machine! There are roughly 100 shooters released for the PCE – almost half of which came out on the PCE-CD format. Some exclusives here that are amazing include Gate of Thunder, Blazing Lazers, Final Soldier, Soldier Blade and Spriggan. There are some super-rare games here as well… some are actually very good such as Sylphia and Ginga Fukei Densetsu Sapphire. And who could forget the best version of Lords of Thunder available! This system has a wide variety of shooters… with many companies represented. It stands above the 8-bit and 16-bit eras with ease as far as shooters go. Some feel that this is the best shooter console to grace the planet… but I feel it lacks something the final 2 entries have – namely a healthy mix of old-school, mid-school and new-school shooters. Still, you can’t go wrong with a PCE / PCE-CD for your shooting fix!
2. Sega Saturn. Oh how it pains me to put my favorite console in second place! The system has it all – great hardware, great 2D sprite-shunting capabilities and many developers who really did the system justice. It features what I consider to be the ultimate shooter in the universe – Radiant Silvergun. And there are amazing conversions of some of the best shooters out there – Thunderforce V, Batsugun, The Game Paradise, etc. Konami supported and loved the machine and all those efforts are amazing. There is a great mix of classic titles (retro packs – especially from Capcom, Konami and Taito) mixed with some modern mid-90’s shooters that start to approach the modern era nicely. My favorite shooter company Psikyo is well represented on the system. Raizing is also covered nicely – and Battle Garegga is highly sought after. Some of the games can get expensive… but most are still reasonably priced. The Saturn is also very import friendly - a simple trace cut and jumper will do the trick... or any one of the import converter carts work nicely. The depth and breath of having more than 50 great shooters to choose from makes this a must have system for all shooter fans.
1. Playstation PSX, PS2 – I’m grouping these together now. If it were the PSX alone, it would stand side-by-side with the Saturn. It has more top-notch exclusives (Zanac Neo, Raiden Project, Raiden DX, Gradius Gaiden, G-Darius, Einhander, R-Type Delta, etc) and some games which it outshines the Saturn (DonPachi, DoDonPachi, In The Hunt) and a few retro packs covering the Namco games puts this on a level playing field with the Saturn. If you think the PSX can’t push sprites around with the best of them, just put in Raiden DX for a half hour and then check back with me. The addition of the PS2 pushes the Playstation into the top spot as far as shooting consoles goes… with backwards compatibility and the latest offerings from Cave (Espgaluda, Dodonpachi Dai-Oujou) R-Type Final, Gradius V, the upcoming Mushihimesama, all the Psikyo retro packs (Dragon Blaze and Sengoku Ace available for the first time!). The PSX/PS2 is capable of the widest variety of shooters on the planet – from classics like Space Invaders, Galaxian, Galaga to modern masterpieces from Cave. And more scrolling shooting games are likely to arrive for it in the future. It knows no equal in the shooter world in terms of the sheer ground it covers.
That’s basically it… this is not an essay to say that one must own a PSX/PS2 and nothing else. It’s simply thoughts on the state of console shooting hardware as I see it. As far as I’m concerned, a shooting fan should strive to obtain all of these consoles (not difficult – the consoles are all fairly cheap) so that they can build up the best and most relevant library of shooting games – past, present and (potentially) future.
And you totally left out those illness which disqualificate most other stuff I read usually to this theme: fanboy`ism.
Congratulations.
