Doing a review of Metal Black- need input!

[Ed Oscuro]

I get confused sometimes. Still was addressing a point on the PS2 port.

Sorry if I'm coming across as ungrateful, I appreciate your taking the time to correct me.

[BrianC]

I get confused sometimes. Still was addressing a point on the PS2 port.

Sorry if I'm coming across as ungrateful, I appreciate your taking the time to correct me.

yeah, I just felt it was important to point out that the Memories port doesn't have the same issue as the Legends port. I heard the Memories ports may have other issues like control lag, though. Actually, I didn't find the Metal Black version on PS2 to be as bad as PlainAmplifier said (it's still playable for the most part, but I heard the laser does cause issues in parts. Calling it broken may have been a bit hasty, though), but I prefer to play it on the PC TL2 with the working laser and all the speed intact.

[black flag nc]

I think maybe I'm a little easier to please than a lot of you guys. I have no complaints about anything on Taito Legends 2. But I don't import or use emulators, so maybe that's why.

Now that I've reviewed a shmup I like, down the road I'll tear into one that I hate. Sol Divide, here I come!!

I really appreciate you guys' input. Drop by http://www.videomasterstv.com/ to check out more of our dopey show.

[PainAmplifier]

I always laugh when people whine about MB's difficulty. Because either they're not getting some very basic points about that game, or I'm a god of shooters. The ship isn't underpowered in the least, mainly because of its oversized main weapon hit area.

MB's difficulty is partly pure 'cheapness' and partly schizophrenia, as in there is no real consistency in the challenges you face. There is no coherency between the 'memorizer' parts and the 'frantic bullet dodging' of other parts. There is no understandable ramp up in difficulty, to seperate the crazy hard spots from the mind numbingly easy parts. So what 'basic points' the game may have, are very poorly communicated to the player through gameplay.

The main gun's hit area is unique, and is meant to be exploited. Notice how you can kill stuff directly above and below you? Next time something gets in your face, maneuver so that it can't hit you, but you can hit it. You'll find you can kill everything that goes near you with a little finesse.

I only touched on the guns hit area referentially...because it doesn't matter in the end. Yes, it gives you a bit of 'leeway' in the width of your shots, and that does include an area above and below the 'front' of your ship...but only significantly when it's powered up. Unlike R-Type's forces, the shots in MB don't absorb or block things, so even then all it takes is one 'suicide' bullet to make all your 'finesse' more of a lucky gamble than pure flying skill.

The only cancellable bullets are the ones fired by midbosses / bosses. They look and behave exactly the same way each time. Purple palette-swaps of your own shots, which fly horizontally. And frankly, they don't appear frequently enough or present enough of a threat to mention. OMG it's those purple bullets, time to shoot and not worry otherwise.

Some of the larger enemies use the cancelable shots as well. The yellow/orange worm things in particular. Some of the later levels also have them as 'turret' shots. (The 'head' from the first boss grafted to the walls for example, kinda like how Moai are in Gradius.) And when they do occur, they tend to overlap and hide the purple 'cresent' shots which *aren't* blockable!

It comes back to you not using the ship properly. You have to play very defensively in this game. Let the faster enemies dart about. As long as they don't go near you, they're not much of a threat. As soon as they get close, your sofa-sized main gun hit area can shut them out. If you think I'm talking shit, look at this video of these techniques in action:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FCgDkJ0vEkQ

Notice how everything that challenged that guy got obliterated?

More importantly I noticed that I'm not playing the same version of the game as that person. In the version I have to play, it's near impossible to fire the main gun as fast as he's doing. And there seems to be fewer enemies on the screen, that or they are slowed down a fair amount. (The sound effects alone are notably different than the PS2/TL2 version.) At the very least I'd need some hardware auto-fire and not just mashing the PS gamepad buttons as fast as possible to match what he's throwing out. It also seems like he takes fewer shots to kill things versus how many I need.

The bomb is only needed in a few places, once you're adept at using the main gun. Most of the time, it's a deathtrap and not worth the penalty. The enormous weapon downgrade does indeed suck, but that's why you're encouraged to exploit the main gun. Which again, is inordinately capable of killing stuff.

And that is part of what makes the game so 'bad'. It penalizes you far too harshly for using your super weapon/bomb. It's difficult enough, as using your 'power up' that way doesn't prevent you from dying either. Non-blockable shots still kill you instantly, even when your discharging your beam/lightning.

Are you any good at DDP or Mushi, so that you know what you're actually comparing MB to? I certainly wouldn't compare it to DDP. It sounds more like you have no idea how to play MB, and have mistaken that for some kind of impressive difficulty. Again, it's either that, or I'm a lot better at shooters than I thought. Not to do the "L2Play" thing, but that's the only way I could see MB being mistaken for that hard a game.

I am referring more to the learning curve on those games, than I am their overall difficulty. By the time you reach the crazy hard boss at the end of those games, you've built up to it. MB just dumps stuff on you, throwing 'easy' and 'hard' stuff around while randomly tossing some other game play elements at you. (Like the Thunder Force'esque shifting/closing walls at points.)

I'm not saying it's a completely broken or impossible game. But MB's overall difficulty and mashup of playing style is so hard to 'get into' that (in reference to the OP, talking about the replay he found to show the gameplay) saying someone who is dying a lot 'sucks' is a misnomer considering how 'hard' the game is. It's analgous to watching someone beat an 'easy' game thinking therefore they must be a really good player.

Maybe it's just that the version of the game I have is just a 'bad port', which poorly represents the game as it is in the arcade. But, the version (PS2) I have is probably the most common one people are going to run into first. And for all I know, the PS2 port I am playing may just be one that is jacked up to the maximum difficulty that was setable on the original PCB, while the version you have played was set to 'normal'. (Assuming it had adjustable difficulty.)

[JoshF]

I thought it was a good review but the footage didn't do it any justice.

Also, you went a little overboard with the facial and hand gestures in that arcade.

[black flag nc]

I thought it was a good review but the footage didn't do it any justice.

Also, you went a little overboard with the facial and hand gestures in that arcade.

Yep, I'm an idiot. Thanks for watching, bro!

[BIL]

MB's difficulty is partly pure 'cheapness' and partly schizophrenia, as in there is no real consistency in the challenges you face. There is no coherency between the 'memorizer' parts and the 'frantic bullet dodging' of other parts. There is no understandable ramp up in difficulty, to seperate the crazy hard spots from the mind numbingly easy parts. So what 'basic points' the game may have, are very poorly communicated to the player through gameplay.

As Zebra already said, MB is a memoriser through and through. A memoriser doesn't dictate "sit at point A, then move under giant robot foot to point B." You seem to think that MB's demanding twitch dodging even when the basic level layout is memorised is some kind of genre anomaly. It's not. Gradius II is one prominent example I can think of offhand.

And by basic points, I was referring to proper use of the ship's main gun, which often seems to get completely overlooked in favour of "beam battles." Which would explain why someone might find MB crushingly difficult.

And what "mind numbingly easy" parts are you referring to? This game is a grueling slog beyond Stage 1, as far as I know.

I only touched on the guns hit area referentially...because it doesn't matter in the end. Yes, it gives you a bit of 'leeway' in the width of your shots, and that does include an area above and below the 'front' of your ship...but only significantly when it's powered up. Unlike R-Type's forces, the shots in MB don't absorb or block things, so even then all it takes is one 'suicide' bullet to make all your 'finesse' more of a lucky gamble than pure flying skill.

I can 1CC this game consistently. There's no gambling involved, no more than any other demand of skill in this genre. And the main gun's hit area is extremely relevant. Without it you'd be completely screwed. And keeping it at maximum strength just isn't very hard, with the amount of opportunities to power it up.

And what suicide bullets (bullets enemies release on death)? I don't remember any at all from this game. If you're talking about an enemy point-blanking you, that's another matter entirely. If an enemy gets in your face and blasts you, try observing and reacting more quickly next time. See also every Raiden game ever. Hey, this game is a cross between Gradius and Raiden! Or maybe Gradius is a cross between Gradius and Raiden, hmm.

Some of the larger enemies use the cancelable shots as well. The yellow/orange worm things in particular. Some of the later levels also have them as 'turret' shots. (The 'head' from the first boss grafted to the walls for example, kinda like how Moai are in Gradius.) And when they do occur, they tend to overlap and hide the purple 'cresent' shots which *aren't* blockable!

All of those enemies you mention (the green Angelfish, the yellow eel, the blue Stage 1 boss palette-swaps) are what I meant by mid-bosses. They take a hell of a lot more punishment than any other non-boss, and appear maybe three times a stage at most. They're not common.

More importantly I noticed that I'm not playing the same version of the game as that person. In the version I have to play, it's near impossible to fire the main gun as fast as he's doing. And there seems to be fewer enemies on the screen, that or they are slowed down a fair amount. (The sound effects alone are notably different than the PS2/TL2 version.) At the very least I'd need some hardware auto-fire and not just mashing the PS gamepad buttons as fast as possible to match what he's throwing out. It also seems like he takes fewer shots to kill things versus how many I need.

I've not played the version you're playing, but just in case it helps at all; MB uses "burst fire," rather than Darius Gaiden's more common "faster tapping = faster shooting." Notice that if you press and hold the button in MB, you'll fire at maximum rate for a second, then rapidly slow down. What you need to do is gradually tap on, tap off the fire button to maintain a fast rate. It's far easier on your thumb than the typical Gradius / Darius tapping. I hope that's not been messed up in your version too, as it'd be a real shame.

If he's not killing stuff more quickly because of faster firing, which is what I'd assume knowing how pitiful MB's firing rate is when mashing, that's something to investigate. I hope the emulations of this game aren't that ragged. Same goes for slower game speed and fewer enemies, which if you're not mistaken, makes no sense. I've never heard of the Taito XX versions running faster and with more enemies.

And that is part of what makes the game so 'bad'. It penalizes you far too harshly for using your super weapon/bomb. It's difficult enough, as using your 'power up' that way doesn't prevent you from dying either. Non-blockable shots still kill you instantly, even when your discharging your beam/lightning.

The only way I'd call MB a bad game for this, is if survival hinged on the bomb. It really doesn't, and all I can say is, if it did I'd have a hell of a miserable time playing the way I do (using the bomb maybe three times in the whole game; Stage 4 Boss, Stage 5 right before boss, and some random point in Stage 6 if I screw up). The heavy bomb penalty is offset by the main gun letting you clear the game with more effort but far greater consistency, compared to relying on a bomb.

I am referring more to the learning curve on those games, than I am their overall difficulty. By the time you reach the crazy hard boss at the end of those games, you've built up to it. MB just dumps stuff on you, throwing 'easy' and 'hard' stuff around while randomly tossing some other game play elements at you. (Like the Thunder Force'esque shifting/closing walls at points.)

Metal Black has a very similar approach to Rayforce, whose pacing it sounds like you'd hate too. The first stage is nothing to write home about, the second very obviously dispenses with nonsense and gets tough, and from that point you're on notice to never let your guard down, despite the game not breathing down your neck 100% of the time. I would regard that as a good thing in this genre, considering how irritating I find it to sit through three and a half soporific stages before finally feeling engaged.

I'm not saying it's a completely broken or impossible game. But MB's overall difficulty and mashup of playing style is so hard to 'get into' that (in reference to the OP, talking about the replay he found to show the gameplay) saying someone who is dying a lot 'sucks' is a misnomer considering how 'hard' the game is. It's analgous to watching someone beat an 'easy' game thinking therefore they must be a really good player.

Fair enough, but if you say "player sucks, more like the game sucks," it doesn't sound lke you're being that charitable.

Maybe it's just that the version of the game I have is just a 'bad port', which poorly represents the game as it is in the arcade. But, the version (PS2) I have is probably the most common one people are going to run into first. And for all I know, the PS2 port I am playing may just be one that is jacked up to the maximum difficulty that was setable on the original PCB, while the version you have played was set to 'normal'. (Assuming it had adjustable difficulty.)

I've tried out MB with the dip switch set to maximum difficulty. I didn't notice any difference besides the rank seeming to start out on maximum, which is what I'm used to dealing with anyway. I've never seen any comments on the Taito Memories / Legends versions being harder.

[Shatterhand]

has this become the Last Hope thread?

[Ed Oscuro]

No, because Bill > RHE

[BIL]

has this become the Last Hope thread?

I was wondering that myself halfway through typing that last post.

But I'm saying that MB isn't a player-crippling schizophrenic rapist with deliberately broken mechanics. Not that it isn't an unfriendly game, or that anyone should like it despite that. People can bash MB all day for all I care. But if it were the Catch-22 death machine it's been described as in detail here, I wouldn't bother playing it.

[PainAmplifier]

As Zebra already said, MB is a memoriser through and through. A memoriser doesn't dictate "sit at point A, then move under giant robot foot to point B." You seem to think that MB's demanding twitch dodging even when the basic level layout is memorised is some kind of genre anomaly. It's not. Gradius II is one prominent example I can think of offhand.

Isn't the whole "Sit at point A" the very definition of Memorizer? Certainly every game regardless of type (shmup, FPS or even RPG) has a certain level of memorization to them. Boss battle 'patterns' are one of the most common 'memorize' things you need to know even in 'twitch' games. The only real difference I've noted is how many different things you have to remember in order to be good at the game. At some undefined point, people just seem to apply the memorizer label to a game. Although to my understanding, it's usually how much you have to memorize the 'levels' that is the main defining factor.

And by basic points, I was referring to proper use of the ship's main gun, which often seems to get completely overlooked in favour of "beam battles." Which would explain why someone might find MB crushingly difficult.

And what "mind numbingly easy" parts are you referring to? This game is a grueling slog beyond Stage 1, as far as I know.

Quite honestly, it's completely random for me. (Other than the first stage.) I replayed the game some more just to be certain I'm giving it a fair shake...and one play will have me wiping a level without any effort and the next has me eating credits like candy. Same seems to go for the boss battles. The one in particular that stands out is the dragony one with the tail laser that bounces off the silver orbs. Sometimes I can 'rush' it and other times it just laughs at me. The final boss is pretty much the same. Sometimes I can dodge it's tail beam no problem, other times there is just no way around it.

I'm a big fan of R-Type Final and that is pretty much considered a 'memorizer' by all. And in that game I know if I die, it's because I screwed up somewhere. In MB, I really don't get that feeling at all. I don't know if there is any 'rank' to the game, but it sure seems like the game is going out of it's way to kill you on some play throughs. (Related to the bonus rounds?..seems like the better I do on those the harder the level after is.)

And what suicide bullets (bullets enemies release on death)? I don't remember any at all from this game. If you're talking about an enemy point-blanking you, that's another matter entirely. If an enemy gets in your face and blasts you, try observing and reacting more quickly next time. See also every Raiden game ever. Hey, this game is a cross between Gradius and Raiden! Or maybe Gradius is a cross between Gradius and Raiden, hmm.

Yes, I'm not referring to the true 'suicide' bullets, but rather the point blanking. Perhaps it would be better to refer to those as Kamikaze bullets instead?

Hmm...from my perspective, the game is closer to R-Type's ship size with Raiden's moving speed, levels from Thunder Force and Bosses from Darius.

All of those enemies you mention (the green Angelfish, the yellow eel, the blue Stage 1 boss palette-swaps) are what I meant by mid-bosses. They take a hell of a lot more punishment than any other non-boss, and appear maybe three times a stage at most. They're not common.

I don't know if you can really call any of those true mid-bosses. Other than perhaps the angel fish ones. Not only are they a bit too common, but they really don't have the proper 'mid boss' presentation. Coming across more like infrequent but normal 'strong' enemies. You can drop them pretty fast if you are ready and in position for them.

I've not played the version you're playing, but just in case it helps at all; MB uses "burst fire," rather than Darius Gaiden's more common "faster tapping = faster shooting." Notice that if you press and hold the button in MB, you'll fire at maximum rate for a second, then rapidly slow down. What you need to do is gradually tap on, tap off the fire button to maintain a fast rate. It's far easier on your thumb than the typical Gradius / Darius tapping. I hope that's not been messed up in your version too, as it'd be a real shame.

Yes, there is something definately screwey with the shots. If you hold the button down, it starts with what seems 'bursty' but then falls off into a very sporadic stream with some big breaks between shots at times. If you press-release-press you really don't get a good burst going and it's actually harder to work with. Where if you keep up a steady tap, you get a semi-decent stream of shots going out. I've noticed a rather large amount of 'flicker' realted to the shots on this version as well.

If he's not killing stuff more quickly because of faster firing, which is what I'd assume knowing how pitiful MB's firing rate is when mashing, that's something to investigate. I hope the emulations of this game aren't that ragged. Same goes for slower game speed and fewer enemies, which if you're not mistaken, makes no sense. I've never heard of the Taito XX versions running faster and with more enemies.

I watched the vid you posted again, but without being able to watch it side by side with my version it is hard to quantify exactly how the game play is different other than the shots/sounds. I hit one of the linked vids on the side though, and watched what looked like some boss point milking on a Japanese (?asian text,?) version of the game and that one seemed much easier as well. In particular, the final boss 'worms' died very fast to the ship guns and they could stop the 'beam' almost instantly by firing on the tail about when it was going to 'release'. It was almost an entirely different battle from my point of view. And the gun wasn't even at full power.

It wouldn't be the first or last time that the US version of a game was changed from an asian or PAL release though. And speaking of that, there could be some refresh rate issues in there as well...it's hard to tell without knowing all the minor details about each release or even what everyones setup is exactly.

The only way I'd call MB a bad game for this, is if survival hinged on the bomb. It really doesn't, and all I can say is, if it did I'd have a hell of a miserable time playing the way I do (using the bomb maybe three times in the whole game; Stage 4 Boss, Stage 5 right before boss, and some random point in Stage 6 if I screw up). The heavy bomb penalty is offset by the main gun letting you clear the game with more effort but far greater consistency, compared to relying on a bomb.

After playing MB more, I have to call the 'beam' more of a 'Banzai!' shot, rather than a survival item. It's not quite a true Kamikaze/suicide shot, but it definately isn't a 'get out of jail free' type thing like most other games since you end up completely unpowered at the end of it.

Metal Black has a very similar approach to Rayforce, whose pacing it sounds like you'd hate too. The first stage is nothing to write home about, the second very obviously dispenses with nonsense and gets tough, and from that point you're on notice to never let your guard down, despite the game not breathing down your neck 100% of the time. I would regard that as a good thing in this genre, considering how irritating I find it to sit through three and a half soporific stages before finally feeling engaged.

I've never played Rayforce, but a quick youtube search and look at the gameplay makes me think it's nothing like MB so far as difficulty scaling goes. (Soldier Blade/Xevious cross for the style though?)

Fair enough, but if you say "player sucks, more like the game sucks," it doesn't sound lke you're being that charitable.

It's a bit of damned if you do, damned if you don't going on. Either you aren't positive enough, or you are too negative. It's like game ratings on a 1 to 10 scale....you can't give an average game a 5. Everyone assumes that anything below a 7 is a waste of time, and thus you get scores that tend to range from 7 to 9 with an occasional '10'.

I've tried out MB with the dip switch set to maximum difficulty. I didn't notice any difference besides the rank seeming to start out on maximum, which is what I'm used to dealing with anyway. I've never seen any comments on the Taito Memories / Legends versions being harder.

Unless you have a chance to play the Legends port, and compare the two yourself, I can't see this question being answered any time soon. It could be rank, it could be 'tweaked' changes or it could be hardware/emulation issues.

If you are playing on the actual PCB, I'd say you have a superior version and the legends version probably has issues. From personal experience, far too many ported/emulated games just don't come close to matching the original game. Sometimes it's still reasonably close and playable...other times it's not. (And I'm thinking this is one of those 'not' releases.)

has this become the Last Hope thread?

O_o; I'm not familiar with that one...but you have my curiosity pinged a bit now. I may have to search for that one later.

I think we've covered this in about as much depth as possible without starting to talk about technical details of the differences between versions and hardware though. Which really should go to it's own thread at that point...any more and this hijack will be well out of hand.

[BIL]

I would only call MB an above-average shooter myself, I should say. I'm fond of it, but I realise several of its quirks that I enjoy would just be flaws to others. I don't think it's a broken or unfair shooter, that's all. It's a very unfriendly one, but the difference is that it's well-designed enough that it can be mastered if someone's willing to wrestle with it.

And don't worry, the Last Hope thread resemblance is entirely down to me.

[Ed Oscuro]

I've never played Rayforce, but a quick youtube search and look at the gameplay makes me think it's nothing like MB so far as difficulty scaling goes. (Soldier Blade/Xevious cross for the style though?)

RayForce to MB seems a pretty good comparison, in my view.

Ray Force doesn't look anything like Soldier Blade, and neither game looks anything like Xevious. If you mean the gameplay style, still not much resemblance to Soldier Blade; the Xevious comparison is pretty hard to miss though.

It's really more like Fighter & Attacker or Dragon Spirit with ground target chaining.

[BIL]

What makes RF feel a lot like MB to me is the close-quarters fighting. Enemies love to get in your face in both games, and tend to be much faster than your ship. You need a very steady hand and quick reflexes to not get either rammed or point-blanked.

As for pacing, that one is very clear. Both games take it easy on the first stage, but as soon as the second starts, you need to pay 100% attention or die. It's quite different from the more common two sleepy stages.