A serious note about Last Hope

[RHE]

I'd appreciate you defense of LH a lot more if you hadn't wrote something like "we programmers know why pads configuration must be fixed".

I didn't tell this. I know what you'e reffering to trough as I only were telling something about controls on this board once.

I've said something like, that you don't need custom controls in the options since a console game is designed to be played on a default Controller. When a game is not perfectly playable with the default controlling then the game will harldy be a enjoyable game. In Last Hopes regards the game is proven to be playable on its default. There's no need for asking custom controls, which doesn't make the game playing better. Especially not if you don't know if it plays better, sicne that option is not featured. So a game with custom controls must be made really bad if not even the devs themselves know how to play it right.

It's however rather some kind of philisophy then a statement. Nintendo agrees with me.

You seem to have a very hard time dealing with criticism, even when it is constructive.

Customs controls are not constructive, they're deconstructive as said above. It's just that some people thinking they know how the world goes round because they can 1cc a game or because the're studying phillosphy, and then when you disagree with them, they will call you arrogant.

it's more that you're not taking suggestions and making future games better

Take a look at the first replies in this thread and the whole DUX thread also.

[Zeether]

[szycag]

There are a lot of challenging things I can do in my life, what I need when I play video games (my escape from life) are fun things.

Are you sure you like shmups?
Go play some compile.

If the game isn't

=== FUN ===

I might as well be playing Takeshi no Chousenjou.

Plasmo, have you 1cc'd Planet Joker by chance?

Just for future reference, RHE originally titled this thread "Last Hope is a good game". He changed his tone after I said something.

[RHE]

=== FUN ===

That's completely subjective. I don't know how you think you can define what fun ist. You can only define it to yourself.

Just for future reference, RHE originally titled this thread "Last Hope is a good game". He changed his tone after I said something.

Youre clearly not following this thread. Ganelon were asking me for changing the title to a neutral tone.

How does this matter anyway?

[shoe-sama]

it's more that you're not taking suggestions and making future games better

Take a look at the first replies in this thread and the whole DUX thread also.

Well my impression is that you're going...

LH is good for X Y Z reasons.
Then I look at them and don't like X and don't think Z is all that relevant or extensive and have a good laugh.

Anyways it's not just this forum that has opinions on LH.

I remember some talk on the #shmups irc channel that Asian players thought Last Hope was horrible too when it first came out. Or maybe it was the forum. I don't know, but they were excited about it, bought it, then thought it sucked. For all I know the Asian shmup community might have changed their minds on what the consensus was, but just something to consider. For all we know it could've been some outspoken bashers of the game that didn't represent the community as a whole.



but enough of that

I just looked at the interview posted in the other thread, so it looks like you're at least acknowledging the comments lol. I'm just skeptical about how extensively you'll address these issues though, judging from how adamantly you're defending everything. Who knows they, maybe you'll make a great game. It just doesn't seem like it since you're preoccupied with defending so many unimportant details (and now the controller thing).

I will post my specific experience with Last Hope soon. I'll admit I actually haven't played it, but it will be most interesting. Reveals stuff about how I think, which may or may not be analagous to how others view the game.

[szycag]

Whether or not a game is fun is subjective, yes. What Plasmo had to say to me was insulting, and I don't think he read my post in full. I don't find your game very fun, so I don't bother to play it. He then assumes this means I can't possibly like shmups since they are difficult. In any game, the player is looking for fun, difficulty is just what makes them stick around. It was just very condescending.

About the topic change, even if it wasn't what you were trying to say exactly, it was called "Last Hope is a good game" and then you said that was not the point of the thread. It is just for people who happen to read this topic later on, I will let your points speak for themselves.

I wrote the review about Last Hope to make people think about what they were buying. I wrote the poem about your game because it's fun to poke fun at such a frustrating game. Yes, I am strangely drawn to your game, like I am strangely drawn to Ernie Reyes movies.

[Turrican]

I didn't tell this.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 576#213576

You did. But don't sweat it - I understand what you mean about controls. I might even agree, but still the overall impression of that thread was that you weren't exceptionally receptive to what bloodflowers had to say.

Like him, I can say that I love hories and R-Type games. Who knows, maybe someday I'll have the chance to play LH and I'll love to discuss it with you again.

It's however rather some kind of philisophy then a statement. Nintendo agrees with me.

Nintendo's greatest shmup to this day is Solarstriker.

[doctorx0079]

While I do have a lot of sympathy for RHE . .

He's a little too defensive here. At some point he needs to say, "Maybe so folks, maybe so", and forget about the critics and make exactly the game he wants to make, and not hang around internet forums so much.

[Plasmo]

Whether or not a game is fun is subjective, yes. What Plasmo had to say to me was insulting, and I don't think he read my post in full. I don't find your game very fun, so I don't bother to play it. He then assumes this means I can't possibly like shmups since they are difficult. In any game, the player is looking for fun, difficulty is just what makes them stick around. It was just very condescending.

@szycag
Sorry, might've been a bit too aggressive there...
I did read your full post. My point is that IMO shmups are one of the most difficult (of course there are exceptions...compile...) videogame genre and of course you can have fun and enjoy them by taking the challenge. but if you really don't want to have a challenge and just escape the real world, then there are plenty of easier games from other genres, where you can just sit there watching the 60min cutscenes.
I can't imagine that it would be any fun dying every 5secs in DOJ?!

[undamned]

...and not hang around internet forums so much.

Serious. Shouldn't somebody be making games right now?
-ud

[RHE]

He's a little too defensive here. At some point he needs to say, "Maybe so folks, maybe so", and forget about the critics and make exactly the game he wants to make, and not hang around internet forums so much.

Maybe I'm sounding too defensive. But I consider the constructive critism on the DUX thread really helpfull. So I'd like to take it. Last Hope instead just don't demand it for stated resons. Don't you understand my point of view?

You did. But don't sweat it - I understand what you mean about controls. I might even agree, but still the overall impression of that thread was that you weren't exceptionally receptive to what bloodflowers had to say.

I'm not sweating it. I'm just not sure what 'we programmers know why pads configuration must be fixed' means. Maybe I just don't get the phrase. However, thats a good point you making there about Bloodflowers critism. So do you think its right to tell the dev what they have to do different/better by 10mins of playtime? Even if its something positive.

It's like when you do a puzzle game and then someone cames up and says, this game is bad, because I have to think too much when playing the game. It just shows a lack of understanding as puzzling demands thinking.

Nintendo's greatest shmup to this day is Solarstriker.

It's not a bad game.

I remember some talk on the #shmups irc channel that Asian players thought Last Hope was horrible too when it first came out.

I know this. But that's not were I'm going at. Everbody has a right to add criticism their purchase and finding a game bad as for their own taste. It's just that some poeple have some strange obsession with LH which were taken to the assumend maximum at the DUX thread. I mean it' cleary visible that DUX doesn't suffer from bad visibilty and all the stuff that many were criticizing with Last Hope.

You have to see it this way. When there's went something wrong with something you did. And then you make something different but comparable and improve all the complaints and some poeple just ignore that. How would you take it?

All the unimportant detail you're mentioning is what people criticise with Last Hope. So that's why responding to that. I'm also not defending anything but facts.

About the topic change, even if it wasn't what you were trying to say exactly, it was called "Last Hope is a good game" and then you said that was not the point of the thread. It is just for people who happen to read this topic later on, I will let your points speak for themselves.

You're looking at it in the wrong way. I've changed to title because it was misleading, so it was my bad. That Last Hope is a good game is not the point of this thread, so I've changed it. The point that you doesn't seem to get is, that people stating the game bad per see withhout putting much time into. I don't think someone should write a review when only playing 2 stages of a game. Even if you're trying to keep people saving their bucks. There are enough misleading reviews out there. Youre review is just not telling much about the game itself, it doesn't even mention the core game mechanics. It's just a save youre bucks statement. It's an missuse of the review section.

This is shmups.com it's all about shmups. So I'm expecting a little bit more qualitly when it comes to shmup game critism then of any not-related shmup board.

[szycag]

I guess I should have said "difficulty for the sake of it". I do like a challenge, of course. Well, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I am a bit of an adrenaline junkie when it comes to video games and maybe that's why I like the faster Cave stuff and don't like Last Hope. This doesn't stop me from liking R-Type though, so I don't know why that is.

[Tigershark]

This is not the way a player should threat any games. This is not the way an adult person should threat anythings. And this attitude is also one on the reason why Shmups are not mainstream. People who playing mainstream games will harldy give shmups a try. When they do this, in most cases, they will enjoying it. To give LH a try is not so easy as the game is pretty hard but with some time it becomes reasonable. This has soemthing to do with LHs inaccessible nature. People who play shmup and participating discussion boards have to be more open about different approaches instead of fighting each other if Cave or Tohou is the better style. Both stsles a good in their own way. Discuss about the differents of those games instead, so both sides can arguing to understand the benifits of the different styles. People should talk on discussion boards and writing reviews of games for telling players why and how a game is enjoybale and not for stating is as good or bad.

There's so many good things with this quote and so many bad things I hardly know where to start. I'll mention two things: one good, one bad.

Bad:

It is of course possible that since English is not your first language that something was lost in the translation but the first two sentences are way too preachy for my liking. You've got to take people as you find them. Different strokes etc etc. I don't even know you so please don't tell me how an adult (which I am) should act. You'll get things off on the wrong foot straight away.

Good:

I agree about the openess point and your reference (obliquely) to fanboys.

I did buy this game but can't say I liked it. The main reason being (as previously mentioned elsewhere in this thread) that I simply don't have the time to memorise the game in the way you'd need to to. That's why I only have about 6 hours of recorded play in Ikaruga. That my friend is a constructive comment from a man who can't spend hours in front of a telly. Whilst that might not be demographic you're after, you can't dismiss it totally and I'm entitled to say it.

TS.

[Turrican]

I'm not sweating it. I'm just not sure what 'we programmers know why pads configuration must be fixed' means. Maybe I just don't get the phrase. However, thats a good point you making there about Bloodflowers critism. So do you think its right to tell the dev what they have to do different/better by 10mins of playtime? Even if its something positive.

It's like when you do a puzzle game and then someone cames up and says, this game is bad, because I have to think too much when playing the game. It just shows a lack of understanding as puzzling demands thinking.

Aww, shit! You always want the last word, don't you?

What can I say more? As I state at the very beginning of the thread I can't comment on LH. But I was interested into it and I followed closely the entire twentyfive thread when it came out...
I respect bloodflowers and those remarks seemed pretty spot on, UNLIKE the mindless bashing other people were spitting on it. Since you started this thread, you addressed the noobs complaints ("it's like R-Type, and I don't like R-Type, duh!"), I just thought it could have been helpful to remind you and the others that the game had received also serious criticism, criticism that was completely unrelated to a specific subgenre. Now I'm not so sure anymore - it's seems you think it's a lot easier to explain that LH isn't DDP.
Bloodflowers had every right to say its two cents here like everyone else, since you registered. I don't see what's the problem, really.

[Solarstriker]It's not a bad game.

In fact, I love it. ^_^

[nimitz]

Ok , lets put this simply: Was there any criticism about Last Hope that made you say "Yes you are right we totally messed up on this point and will never do this again".


It's easy to say that any game is perfect and anyone who finds anything wrong with it needs to grow up or doesn't "understand" the game.

I mean you seem to agree that Last Hope isn't perfect, I'm curious to know what are the mistakes you learned from and will improve with DUX.

[szycag]

Super Laydock didn't pass level 2 either. Is he entitled to his opinion of the game just because it is a positive one? You've said nothing about that. Jeez, it's not like I gave the game a 1 or 2. EGM, Gamespot, IGN, 1up, any of those gaming rags would have gave it that easily. Then I had people I respect like Bvork telling me I went way too easy on the game. Don't tell me again about being subjective.

Let's leave it up to bloodflowers if my review is meant for the reviews section or not. If Plasmo wishes to do a review in this forum's review section, then he should. I said before I would take mine down if someone who completed the game did one, and I still stand by that.

What's there to say about the gameplay? I guess there is a lot. This game is about over-management of your pod. Eat bullets and be selective about what you shoot because your ship is very slow and most of the screen is a problem area for your ship. Also, there's inertia. Let's list all of the great shmups that have featured inertia. I can't think of any but maybe you guys can. It manages to use it in a way that's not entirely nauseating, and only in brief stints, but not in any way that actually makes it stand out or worth being there. There is a scoring system, I would say. It entails the amount of stuff you're even able to destroy considering if you are able to put yourself in position and suck up the bullets. So kind of a rub your stomach, pat your forehead thing.

If this sounds like fun then you should buy this game!

[SnowKitty]

i found chou aniki to be more fun than last hope :/ it's just a weak R-type clone.i really think this game should have been freeware, not worth the money at all. i didnt even buy the game and i still feel cheated

[RHE]

Super Laydock didn't pass level 2 either. Is he entitled to his opinion of the game just because it is a positive one?

Super Laydock didn't review this game. That's an important difference.

Personally I think that shmups.com reviews are more important then 1up or EGM as they're not specified on shmups. When putting a review in the review section you should make sure to deliever quality to all shmups enthusiasts instead of just stating your opinion. Reviews are not to be underestimated. Lawfer for example bought the LH LE in 2007 but had fears to open it because of the harsh critism the games had received to that time. Then a year later he was unsealing the game, or did whatever to play it, to find out that the game is enjoyable.

That's one of the reason why shmups are not favorable displayed in the media. They just putting phrases like 'it's too short' in it, so most people will be tunred off. Nobody pays full price for a too short game.

I'm not just talking about Last Hope here. Even if a game is bad, a negative written review is always a bad review. From my believe, a review should be always show how a game is fun even if it's not much.

This game is about over-management of your pod.

It's not. You have to see Plasmos 1LC. Plasmo is just using the pod when really nessercary without over-using it. It's just that some player thinking they have to dodge every bullet with the pod and overhastly rotating it.

Actually, you can take every Last Hope youtoube video of this date to see that not only one is showing a over-use of the pod.

Also, there's inertia.

Unless you mean the slow ship then theres no inertia in Last Hope. The ship just has to be slow to make tactical movements nessercary, so that's not a problem. You will get a speed up everytime you need it anyway.

All you're trying to say about LHs gameplay shows how less time you spent with it. Normally I would say, you just don't know but then you would feel offended again.

It is of course possible that since English is not your first language that something was lost in the translation but the first two sentences are way too preachy for my liking.

I don't think its too preachy. You have to understand that games are meant to be fun so you should do everything to make a game fun. When failing at this, you just can't blame the game. I would hardly enjoy any game with that attitude.

You always want the last word, don't you?

That's a really bad habbit of mine.

I respect bloodflowers and those remarks seemed pretty spot on, UNLIKE the mindless bashing other people were spitting on it. Since you started this thread, you addressed the noobs complaints ("it's like R-Type, and I don't like R-Type, duh!"), I just thought it could have been helpful to remind you and the others that the game had received also serious criticism, criticism that was completely unrelated to a specific subgenre.

To me it's clear that most of the criticism that bloodflowers were adding was just a result of misunderstanding and nitpicking.

I mean yes, sometimes it happens that background and foreground are hardly distinguishable but that only really happens in one section of the first stage. So it's just an unimportant detail.

As bloodflowers were serious in his observation, I were responding to him just the way I see it. Instead of taking it, he was just calling me arrogant. I just think he was too frustrated playing the first stage over and over again to make out every bad detail about the game. I don't think that's a good critism attitude.

Ok , lets put this simply: Was there any criticism about Last Hope that made you say "Yes you are right we totally messed up on this point and will never do this again".

- No hitting response by Boss enemies (improved on DC)
- Items based speed up system
- Sloppy collision detection form time to time

Those visibility issues are of course a valid complaint for people who have them as well. ther'e just no wy saying the game has the problem, as just the player has it. However, since those glowing debries are not too much gameplay relevent we should have just get rid-off them to avoid this problem. But then, those glowing shrapnels are meant to effect gameplay in a certain way. Ther're meant to keeping the player in move and paying more attention to bullet movements. It just didn't work.

It's easy to say that any game is perfect and anyone who finds anything wrong with it needs to grow up or doesn't "understand" the game.

Understanding this game is indeedly simple so it makes me curious why some poeple have hard time with that. May they just don't try as the game is made in the west and it doesnt have any license so it must be bad. It seems to be that way.

I mean you seem to agree that Last Hope isn't perfect, I'm curious to know what are the mistakes you learned from and will improve with DUX.

All of the stuff mentioned above.

[Zeether]

This is all I have to say.

[Ed Oscuro]

RHE is looking more and more like the Derek Smart or John Romero of the shmups community, which is hilarious and sad at the same time.

[shoe-sama]

ok as promised, this is my impression of last hope
This does not tell you anything you do not already know, but rather, shows what people think when they see it.

I will just make it small size because I do not find this important.

I haven't played it all all, but I just watched the first trailer video and was all like LOL THIS SUCKS after seeing it. The enemy formations didn't look right, the scrolling made me dizzy, and all the explosions and background and stuff made bullets invisible. Overdramatization, but I think that's where some of the cheap death complaint things are coming from. The visibility was improved in the DC version though, so I guess that's a plus. And obviously you've already learned these lesson very well and won't repeat these specific mistakes.
But still, something seemed off

I already know what type of shmups I don't like, so let's just say it didn't impress me. And 100% of the shmups I have looked and and thought were horrible were still horrible after I spent 20 hours on them. Can't explain it, but something seemed off about the gameplay. With R-Type Leo or Xexex or Ether Vapor or some other game (trying to go with similar games), I alternate between OMG THIS ROX and OMG THIS SUX (I do that for all games I enjoy). So that's what I'm personally basing my conclusions on. I thought it was complete crap from the video, and 100% of the games I thought were complete crap end up being complete crap when I play them. 99% of the games I think look cool also end up being complete crap too. I'm extremely picky.

I have a weird way of proving a game is crap if everyone else plays it and enjoys it for some reason. I just go into the game, do some random stuff and beat everyone's scores, then conclude that it is crap. Then I gloat and laugh at how much the game "sucks". So I just go in and am all like LOL IM BETTER THAN YOU and crush people.



Anyways, for anyone to provide more relevant feedback, they would have to preview and possibly playtest DUX.

[Zeether]

[cigsthecat]

RHE, I'd be interested to know a bit about the development of Last Hope. Mainly on the business side.

(also, I'm referring the DC version regarding sales, packaging, pressing discs etc.)

How many copies of the game did you have pressed?

How much did this cost, and was it an up front investment or paid based on sales?

How many copies have you sold so far?

What were the various ways you marketed the game (in addition to forum posts), and how much did you spend on marketing, if any?

I'll read as much as you'd like to write about this aspect of releasing the game. Please send me a pm if the forum is too public for you.

[Ed Oscuro]

I will just make it small size because I do not find this important.

I haven't played it all all, but I just watched the first trailer video and was all like LOL THIS SUCKS after seeing it. The enemy formations didn't look right, the scrolling made me dizzy, and all the explosions and background and stuff made bullets invisible. Overdramatization, but I think that's where some of the cheap death complaint things are coming from. The visibility was improved in the DC version though, so I guess that's a plus. And obviously you've already learned these lesson very well and won't repeat these specific mistakes.
But still, something seemed off

I already know what type of shmups I don't like, so let's just say it didn't impress me. And 100% of the shmups I have looked and and thought were horrible were still horrible after I spent 20 hours on them. Can't explain it, but something seemed off about the gameplay. With R-Type Leo or Xexex or Ether Vapor or some other game (trying to go with similar games), I alternate between OMG THIS ROX and OMG THIS SUX (I do that for all games I enjoy). So that's what I'm personally basing my conclusions on. I thought it was complete crap from the video, and 100% of the games I thought were complete crap end up being complete crap when I play them. 99% of the games I think look cool also end up being complete crap too. I'm extremely picky.

I have a weird way of proving a game is crap if everyone else plays it and enjoys it for some reason. I just go into the game, do some random stuff and beat everyone's scores, then conclude that it is crap. Then I gloat and laugh at how much the game "sucks". So I just go in and am all like LOL IM BETTER THAN YOU and crush people.

[ubersaurus]

Super Laydock didn't pass level 2 either. Is he entitled to his opinion of the game just because it is a positive one? You've said nothing about that. Jeez, it's not like I gave the game a 1 or 2. EGM, Gamespot, IGN, 1up, any of those gaming rags would have gave it that easily. Then I had people I respect like Bvork telling me I went way too easy on the game. Don't tell me again about being subjective.

Let's leave it up to bloodflowers if my review is meant for the reviews section or not. If Plasmo wishes to do a review in this forum's review section, then he should. I said before I would take mine down if someone who completed the game did one, and I still stand by that.

What's there to say about the gameplay? I guess there is a lot. This game is about over-management of your pod. Eat bullets and be selective about what you shoot because your ship is very slow and most of the screen is a problem area for your ship. Also, there's inertia. Let's list all of the great shmups that have featured inertia. I can't think of any but maybe you guys can. It manages to use it in a way that's not entirely nauseating, and only in brief stints, but not in any way that actually makes it stand out or worth being there. There is a scoring system, I would say. It entails the amount of stuff you're even able to destroy considering if you are able to put yourself in position and suck up the bullets. So kind of a rub your stomach, pat your forehead thing.

If this sounds like fun then you should buy this game!

Tangent:

I thought your review was pretty horrible, since you said straight up you hadn't gotten anywhere in the game. It's like doing a review of space giraffe only having played the first 10 levels, and even then, not well. Seriously, the review was like "I didn't like it after playing through like level 1, some other guys didn't like it either, the developers didn't have outside testers, so this sucks." And then you went off on a tangent about Dodonpachi, and espoused that myth about some Dreamcasts not reading CD-Rs (which I've never seen ANY proof of). Quite frankly it shouldn't be given much of any credence.

It's been a while since I went through the game, but blocking everything with the pod isn't necessary, because you can still dodge a lot of stuff. But it's really more about determining where to put the pod so that you can dodge everything else while it absorbs the stuff you can't.

I will tell you, I went through a good 3/4 of level 4 without dying before reaching a part I had to work my way through, so you can manage the game with reflexes and a bit of luck. But it's a game that you need to learn your way around, and it doesn't pretend to be anything else.

[szycag]

My definition of inertia is things moving your ship besides your own movement. The first boss, the water in the second level. I guess this is not what other folks regard it as.

I don't think we are regarding the reviews section of this forum in the same way, I see it as the same thing as "reader reviews" like on Gamefaqs or something.

[Ed Oscuro]

Tangent continued, now with faux Vern diagram (it's supposed to be intersecting circles u c):

(people who can play shmups(people who should review them)people who can write) (Vern)

[szycag]

I should post another disclaimer in the review

SORRY I'M NOT REVEREND STUART FUCKING CAMPBELL

[Ed Oscuro]

szycag I wasn't aware your name was Vern

[Moleculoman]

I guess I'll throw my two cents in....


I haven't played Last Hope. Nor do I think I ever will. I've watched enough gameplay clips to decide that.

I find the gameplay to be boring and unimaginative. LH was developed for the Neo Geo, and it shows. When I watch the ship and enemy patterns/designs, I'm reminded of archaic and bland shooting games of past generations. It just looks and feels very forgettable. Simple as that.

In the face of the above comments, no amount of "you don't understand the gameplay" etc is going to give me any desire to put any meaningful amount of time into playing it, even if I possessed a Dreamcast and could track down a copy of the game.

I think aesthetics plays a role as well. It may play or look like Pulstar and R-type. That's not enough. If players are criticizing the already mentioned issues that plauged it (albeit addressed somewhat in the DC version), then that's the least of its worries.

That's not to say someone won't enjoy this game. We all varied tastes and and investment time for games. But its evident that a very broad group of players find something very lacking with Last Hope.