So why all the Touhou Hate?

[Mischief Maker]

I've recently discovered this board and browsing through it I come across a LOT of rage against the Shanghai Alice games. Personally, the game Twin Seeds DX got me back into shmups in a big way so I think the Touhou games are great. (Though I wish he'd make one that emphasizes bullet scratching as much as TSDX does).

I know the little girl graphics are silly and the dialog is insane, but who pays attention to the plot and setting of a bullet hell game anyway?

And as for the delayed bullet attacks, I think that's part of what makes the series great; the boss summoning a huge complex kalidescope of bullets, holding it over you ominously for a second, then letting the whole mess fall your way.

And yeah, there are a lot of creepy fans of the series, but the same can be said of every single japanese cartoon-related thing ever created.

[Zebra Airforce]

It's too slow, makes me want to take a nap.

[kengou]

They're not horrible games or anything, it's just the level design and bullet patterns seem really boring. The bosses will spray these beautiful and complex-looking patterns, but as soon as you start dodging it you realize you're basically just tap-dodging a bunch of slow shots. Good bullet patterns require you to figure out a method to dodge them and then execute that method consistently, which for me is a lot of the fun of shmups. When I play a Touhou game, it feels like I'm just slowly moving around lots of random shots. It feels kind of bland. Watch/play some Ketsui for some of the most awesme patterns ever conceived. They don't just look good, they require problem-solving and coordination by the player to dodge them properly.

[worstplayer]

Slow doesn't just refer to bullet speed. Enemy movement, your own shots, backgrounds, sound, everything in those games just lacks dynamics.

I don't hate Touhou games, i think they're better than most doujins, but they're just not my thing.

[orange]

"my first shmup"

[FIL]

The fanbase. OMG THE TOUHOU DANMAKU WILL MELT YOUR BRAINS IMMA GO READ SOME MORE REIMU X MARISA DICKGIRL HENTAI AND WRITE FANFICTION.

[Udderdude]

Personally I can't stand 5 minute boss fights, where the "Boss" you are fighting is a maid girl hardly larger than your ship. :p

[moozooh]

I'm pretty sure none of the above posters actually know how to make world-class scores in Windows Touhou games. Sure it's comparatively easy to survive them, and you don't need to do much for it. Yet you can see players like ISO (yeah, he does play Touhou competitively for like 4 years) dying on certain patterns on Lunatic. Paradox?

Anyway, play these for score, and you'll see all the dynamics and strategy depth and stuff. Otherwise the discussion is moot.

Oh, and FIL's right: most of the anti-Touhou rage is aimed at fanbase, ~90% of which doesn't even play the games competitively.

[Udderdude]

I'm pretty sure none of the above posters actually know how to make world-class scores in Windows Touhou games. Sure it's comparatively easy to survive them, and you don't need to do much for it. Yet you can see players like ISO (yeah, he does play Touhou competitively for like 4 years) dying on certain patterns on Lunatic. Paradox?

Anyway, play these for score, and you'll see all the dynamics and strategy depth and stuff. Otherwise the discussion is moot.

IMO a shmup that is fun to play for both score and survival is best. Not one or the other.

Not sure how playing for score makes swimming in a sea of ultra-slow bullets more interesting, anyway.

Oh, and FIL's right: most of the anti-Touhou rage is aimed at fanbase, ~90% of which doesn't even play the games competitively.

That's easily ignoreable while playing the games themselves.

[moozooh]

Not sure how playing for score makes swimming in a sea of ultra-slow bullets more interesting, anyway.

May I suggest watching a WR playthrough? Perfect Cherry Blossom Lunatic mode replay with Sakuya-B or Imperishable Night Hard mode with Youmu, or Embodiment of Scarlet Devil Extra mode with Marisa-B, for example.

[Twiddle]

Oh, and FIL's right: most of the anti-Touhou rage is aimed at fanbase, ~90% of which doesn't even play the games.

Small correction.

[shoe-sama]

standard shmup discipline is to know the game and specific enemy formations well
Well it should actually apply to every game, but shmups tend not to have save points which makes longterm memorization of the entire game more widespread.

This is why games with shitloads of slow bullets suck, unless they are supplemented by chokepoints that are hard to react to but not too hard to learn and anticipate. There's so many games that have no chokepoints at all nowadays

I posted this in the DUX thread as a contrast to oldschool memorizers.

Not enough chokepoints not interesting 1LC all modes in like 1 hour.
ok overdramatization but that's what i comes down to

also you actually don't have to dodge for most of the patterns once you learn them

it's actually easier than using safespots in old school memorizers too

since you have 5000 seconds to position yourself once you see the pattern coming

as opposed to
being there before the enemy formation or pattern actually comes

[Dandy J]

gay as fuck dawg

[moozooh]

Not enough chokepoints not interesting 1LC all modes in like 1 hour.
ok overdramatization but that's what i comes down to

also you actually don't have to dodge for most of the patterns once you learn them

it's actually easier than using safespots in old school memorizers too

since you have 5000 seconds to position yourself once you see the pattern coming

Again, this all comes from surviving perspective. You aren't supposed to sit in the corner and casually tap your way through the pattern, at least according to the games' scoring mechanics. You're supposed to graze or otherwise milk most of the patterns. That's a big part of the reason why most of the patterns are slow or otherwise convenient for dodging: to make you able to graze more/better. The only exception to this is MoF, which demands you 1LC it — while bombing for bullet-canceling and keeping the faith chain timing. It's not as easy as you may think, not at all. For EoSD and PCB's best scores, survival bonuses don't ever exceed ~15% of the overall result. Up to ~20% is possible for IN (B-route) and MoF.

This is much like arguing that DDP is easy because you have so many bombs to spare. Right, you have, but you don't use them in a high score run, and you make riskier moves to keep the chain intact, which makes the game tons harder than otherwise.

[Etrian]

I became bored with the series even with lunatic.. and the fanbase is obsessed with things that involve not playing the game.

Plus, a bunch of attacks are stolen from other shooters.

[jpj]

anyone got any links to touhou super-plays or whatever?

[moozooh]

Japanese don't release them as videos, because the games have built-in recording engines. All the best players frequently upload their achievements on this uploader as .rpy files.

You can see people like GFA2-ISO (ZNA), Dame K.K (木村圭), Kagamin (かがみん, the guy who has the current WR for Futari BL Maniac mode), and other brilliant players uploading their replays there for several years.

I have considered doing some video captures of the WR playthroughs I consider most impressive, but my computer can't handle realtime capturing without lag, and I haven't been able to use my work computer for it yet.

[lgb]

Oh, and FIL's right: most of the anti-Touhou rage is aimed at fanbase, ~90% of which doesn't even play the games.

Small correction.

This.

Also, screw the fanbase. Screw them in their tight little assholes. Hope it'll fit.

[honorless]

My beefs with Touhou are mostly divergent from gameplay.

Character sprites are either little girls or formless blobs. All the girls are the same size—i.e. "so small they're basically indistinct from one another". (Or maybe "so small we don't notice that most of the sprites are quite bad".)

All shots are white in the center, all sprites use a lot of white. So much white all over the foreground is very bland. The only contrast is "mess of background" vs. "mess of foreground".

I keep firing up Touhou because I like playing with those crazy, amazing bullet patterns. But all the visual sameness/blandness make my eyes and mind tired, so I can't play them too often or for too long.

[Twiddle]

People who play too much Cave and have absolutely no tolerance for anything that doesn't have Cave, Psikyo, or Seibu slapped on the front/back/sides. Mainly people who can't stand older shooters/games.

Relevant how?

[lgb]

Edited due to miscommunication. Of course, you can still laugh at the quoted posts.

[Twiddle]

That's nice, I get all my information about the users of shmupsforums from Erinu too.

[lgb]

Edited due to miscommunication. Of course, you can still laugh at the quoted posts.

[Twiddle]

Making sweeping generalizations about users == reading. Gotcha!

[lgb]

Edited due to miscommunication. Of course, you can still laugh at the quoted posts.

[Twiddle]

Silly Twiddle. There's a fine line between "making sweeping generalizations about users" and "hearing about 10 or 20 members bitch about random games they never play".

So someone has to play a game for extended periods of time to judge it. Plausible, I guess, if you disregard basic human psychology.

[lgb]

So someone has to play a game for extended periods of time to judge it. Plausible, I guess, if you disregard basic human psychology.

Good. You finally got the point. Don't assume after 5 minutes.

Also, I'm done. It's been fun.

[Udderdude]

I really don't think you can paint everyone here as a huge Cave fanboy.

Anyway, your comment about a "Not enough bullets" complaint is ridiculous, since Touhou has fucking assloads of them.

[Twiddle]

So someone has to play a game for extended periods of time to judge it. Plausible, I guess, if you disregard basic human psychology.

Good. You finally got the point. Don't assume after 5 minutes.

Let me ask you something, if you don't like something after 5 minutes, what incentive do you have to play it?

Also, I'm done. It's been fun.

Yay, you're heading into an argument you cannot address without humility. Exit stage left!

[lgb]

Edited due to miscommunication. Of course, you can still laugh at the quoted posts.