The official love topic for GTA-SA Shmup Trio!

[raiden]

Huh, man... So films and books are not interactive to you. You see a Chaplin, a Kurosawa, a Bergman and you're not stimulated in any way, it's just "passive".
And then you say, there is no interaction when there is no challenge. Basically, the only form of interaction you conceive is something "physical" and "challenging". Do you "challenge" with your girlfriend?

Interaction is a two (or more)-sided affair. When a film or a book inspires me, I´m not influencing the medium, and in that way I´m passive. Games have the potential of immersing the player into their world by offering interaction, but so many modern games reduce his role to the soufleur in a theatre being allowed to say "next scene, please" instead of entering the stage.

I guess we're miles distant. I feel myself more "interactive" when I watch a Kojima cutscene, than when I rub my joystick to play Track & Field.

that´s because Track&Field lacks the other half of giving the player something to react to.

About a good story... I have to disagree on that one too. Ico and Another World tell good stories making a very good use of their medium. Sons of Liberty tells a kind of story that is not possible with movies and such.

I´m not saying it isn´t possible to combine qualities of a game with qualties of a story. But while you seem overwhelmed that this is being tried at all, I´m far from content with current efforts. And there are certain fundamental problems tied to the approach. A scripted game loses dramaturgy if the player has to retry often, that´s why they are made easy enough to allow every casual gamer to run through without looking back. In turn, this creates the hollow feeling of not really having done anything. An alternative would be stories that are generated in real time as a feedback to what the player is doing, but current hardware isn´t able to achieve that.

Besides, recently the hollywood movie quality is decreased a lot, and I really don't think it's necessary a good game to surpass crap like Arthur, Troy, or LOTR. Probably Suikoden II or Final Fight are already better than those.

I didn´t say every non-game story is better than all the game stories, I said even the best game stories can´t compete with the best non-game stories, so pulling out Hollywood crap to support your argument doesn´t do anything.

What's the matter YOU have with crime?

I explained that already. I was analyzing your quote "I think GTA has a specific appeal, about crime, music and stealing cars.", which is spot on and shows how little GTA really has to offer.
Your funny little paragraph on shmups, however, doesn´t capture the appeal in the least. There may be people who play them just to have things explode all around them, but that´s not what the games are designed for. Shmups are concerned with challenging the player to practice and overcome barriers within himself. Graphics are just there to set a mood, yet completely interchangeable. Why do you think the Simpsons GTA clone and Jak&Daxter II sold so much worse than GTA? It´s not gameplay people want from GTA, it´s being able to feel like a criminal without the punishment.

Why are you searching for a great goal in GTA that would raise the human spirit?

because I´m finding that in other games.

And I have no problem to admit the engine is rushed, the controls might be refined and so on -- in fact, I wrote that in my first post, man. I'm just saying there's a lot more to enjoy in this game if only one doesn't stop to that superficial level.

I played GTA3 and Vice City all the way through, because I was still giving a shit for hype back then, looking for reasons for people´s praise. But quite similar to Final Fantasy games, you are doing completely boring stuff 99% of the time, and when some mediocre gag rolls by, you laugh so hard because it just has to justify the countless hours you already wasted on the game.

[Turrican]

Err, a premise. All I really wanted to do in this topic was to discuss how brilliant and clever Duality is. It was not focused on GTA. I am replying to your critcism toward the game only because the discussion is rather interesting.

Interaction is a two (or more)-sided affair. When a film or a book inspires me, I´m not influencing the medium, and in that way I´m passive.

In fact, you are influencing it. See "The End of Evangelion" or read Chaplin's biography to discover how.

Games have the potential of immersing the player into their world by offering interaction, but so many modern games reduce his role to the soufleur in a theatre being allowed to say "next scene, please" instead of entering the stage.

Generic rant towards "modern games". Spit the names, please.

I´m not saying it isn´t possible to combine qualities of a game with qualties of a story. But while you seem overwhelmed that this is being tried at all, I´m far from content with current efforts. And there are certain fundamental problems tied to the approach. A scripted game loses dramaturgy if the player has to retry often, that´s why they are made easy enough to allow every casual gamer to run through without looking back. In turn, this creates the hollow feeling of not really having done anything. An alternative would be stories that are generated in real time as a feedback to what the player is doing, but current hardware isn´t able to achieve that.

You're getting quite complicated here. But whatever you meant, I don't like the conclusion, where you says it's a matter of current hardware. Bullshits, the NES is capable like a PS2 or a theatre or a book, like every other medium, to express emotions and such. You're "far from content" with the actual results, but then again, how can you judge them, if all you really value is a good challenge?

I didn´t say every non-game story is better than all the game stories, I said even the best game stories can´t compete with the best non-game stories, so pulling out Hollywood crap to support your argument doesn´t do anything.

And who judge "when" it's ready to "compete" with others? So Metal Gear can't mach Hemingway yet, huh? Man, you're too focused on this competition thing, you see everything as a challenge, and you would do a high-score. Victor Hugo 1ccs all, Resident Evil is still using a lot of continues to complete the first stage...

Your funny little paragraph on shmups, however, doesn´t capture the appeal in the least. There may be people who play them just to have things explode all around them, but that´s not what the games are designed for. Shmups are concerned with challenging the player to practice and overcome barriers within himself. Graphics are just there to set a mood, yet completely interchangeable. Why do you think the Simpsons GTA clone and Jak&Daxter II sold so much worse than GTA? It´s not gameplay people want from GTA, it´s being able to feel like a criminal without the punishment.

"Shmups are concerned with challenging the player to practice and overcome barriers within himself":

in your opinion. I know that if I call my mom and show her Strikers 1945 II, her comment will likely be "why are you playing these violent games? Why do you burn houses and play to war? Why you're enjoying the representation of an air-raid, when you know many people died by plane bombing?".
I don't think she'll say: "Excellent, son. I see you're training your karma. This is the perfect way to raise your spirit and increase your self-confidence."

"Graphics are just there to set a mood, yet completely interchangeable.":

if you believe this, while playing GTA you're just playing a generic quest, an adventure with some goals to achieve, just like Ocarina of Time. The gangster fashion, the guns and all are just a mood, completely interchangeable.

"Your funny little paragraph on shmups, however, doesn´t capture the appeal in the least. There may be people who play them just to have things explode all around them, but that´s not what the games are designed for."

"Your funny little paragraph on GTAs, however, doesn't capture the appeal in the least. There may be people who play them just to have citizens massacred all around them, but that's not what the games are designed for."

"Why do you think the Simpsons GTA clone and Jak&Daxter II sold so much worse than GTA? It´s not gameplay people want from GTA, it´s being able to feel like a criminal without the punishment."

That's debatable of course. I could reply that GTA gamers want the gameplay, as it is rather enjoyable. Or I could reply that it's not gameplay people wants from Strikers, it's being able to blow up things while feeling a righteous war hero.

But I will just reply that all I see so far is that you have ethic issues with GTA. You're trying to talk of bad controls, bad gameplay, no challenge, but these are excuses. The real problem you have with it is Crime. And Crime without Punishment, nonetheless. I stated in my first post that many have ethic issues with the series, which is fair. But you don't have to come here saying GTA being boring or rushed or a tool to enslave masses. You should have avoided the topic saying to yourself "I think there's a god, there's a justice, it is right to punish evil behaviour, GTA doesn't do this I don't want to mess with GTA in any way".

because I´m finding that in other games.

You find that in other games, and not in GTA. You're definitely unbiased. Besides, I don't see how this criteria can be useful to value a game. Unless your reviewer of reference is Al Menconi, that is.

I played GTA3 and Vice City all the way through, because I was still giving a shit for hype back then, looking for reasons for people´s praise. But quite similar to Final Fantasy games, you are doing completely boring stuff 99% of the time, and when some mediocre gag rolls by, you laugh so hard because it just has to justify the countless hours you already wasted on the game.

Millions of gamers are played these games to be bored 99% of their spare time. Oh, right, they're spineless worms. They don't train their soul, they don't excercise their freedom by piloting a Flying Pancake and destroying buildings and tanks.

[Turrican]

I don't think a plot is necessary to a game to be good, and it should NEVER be the main point of a game..

Why limit yourself? It SHOULD. Besides, if it fails, there will be plenty of other traditional games, so there's no worrying. (but of course you're right, it's not necessary. See alpha5099's Gamecube thread)

Now, Another World, that was said by Turrican... that's another field. This game is not just about "Telling a good history"

I think a lot of game designers today could learn a LOT of what kind of interactivity a game should have with Another World

This game is one of the most brilliant things to ever come from the gaming industry.

So true. And it's also one of the highest achievements in gaming narration / storytelling.

[FatCobra]

I think we can sum all this up in four words:

"GTA Bad!! Shmups good!!"

Ever since importing Strikers 1945 for the Sega Saturn, I feel like all US region videogames and consoles aren't good for me anymore. I've been bitten by the import bug, and it feels good! I'm still waiting for the Saturn to get here, but it'll be worth the wait!!

I used to like GTA, but I grew tried of the "steal cars, kill hookers and cops, roaming around in a big empty environment" type gameplay that's also popping up in alot of other games recenty. I hate the GTA element, well designed levels and cunningly crafted bosses are way much better.

Importing is saving me from the derugery of crappy mainstream games, and when I do want to play them, I rent them instead. I figured that I'll probably beat it or get bored of whatever this month's mainstream game flavor is in a week, so why blow $50 when about $7 will suffice? Videogames are meant to be fun, I'm not having much fun with current releases, GTA is fun....for a couple of minutes, then I pop in a shmup. Shmups are about as fun and pure a videogame can get.

Anyway, I guess because now I've imported a shmup, I feel like I've been elevated to some of "elite" status. That I'm too good to be playing crap like GTA.

[TVG]

sometimes, i like to put something in the console and be challenged, involved, i play a shmup.
other times i just want to play something entertaining and relaxing, something with exploration, testing and stuff, something i can sit and play, that doesnt require 200% concentration like shmups do, something ill play for a couple of hours.

maybe you can say that this practice makes us "nerds" or "passive people" or some bullshit cospiracy theory, but you can also eat shit for all i care. rpg games and such, exploration heavy games have pretty much always existed, i dont see who you are to judge.

on topic: i like gta SA, its the first gta game i completed and i played it lots, its fun as a whole despite being flawed in some many ways (i actually tought the arcade games were shite) but what matters is that i had much fun with it.

[Shatterhand]

Why limit yourself? It SHOULD. Besides, if it fails, there will be plenty of other traditional games, so there's no worrying. (but of course you're right, it's not necessary. See alpha5099's Gamecube thread)

If I wanted a plot, I would read a book

In the end, I think that if someone is getting enjoyment from a game that's based only in the plot, then good for him . I think Snatcher gotta be a great game, even though it's main point is exactly the plot.

So true. And it's also one of the highest achievements in gaming narration / storytelling.

Yes, but I think the way the game is narrated, and the story is told without EVER interrupting the action (The cut-scenes never lasts for more than 10 seconds, and are just icing in the cake) it's what people should learn.

Like I said, and I just wanted to say again, to make sure everyone reads that. Another World/Out of this World is one of the GREATEST MOMENTS IN GAMING HISTORY. Rarely, and I mean RARELY ever the gaming history had such another high point as this.

[Marc]

think we can sum all this up in four words:

"GTA Bad!! Shmups good!!"

Ever since importing Strikers 1945 for the Sega Saturn, I feel like all US region videogames and consoles aren't good for me anymore. I've been bitten by the import bug, and it feels good! I'm still waiting for the Saturn to get here, but it'll be worth the wait!!

I used to like GTA, but I grew tried of the "steal cars, kill hookers and cops, roaming around in a big empty environment" type gameplay that's also popping up in alot of other games recenty. I hate the GTA element, well designed levels and cunningly crafted bosses are way much better.

Importing is saving me from the derugery of crappy mainstream games, and when I do want to play them, I rent them instead. I figured that I'll probably beat it or get bored of whatever this month's mainstream game flavor is in a week, so why blow $50 when about $7 will suffice? Videogames are meant to be fun, I'm not having much fun with current releases, GTA is fun....for a couple of minutes, then I pop in a shmup. Shmups are about as fun and pure a videogame can get.

Anyway, I guess because now I've imported a shmup, I feel like I've been elevated to some of "elite" status. That I'm too good to be playing crap like GTA.

Damn, I hope this was sarcastic.

Yeah, the importing bug is fun at first. And the mainstream can get broing when it's all you're playing. But what when the roles are reversed?

I too got bitten by the importing bug, and decided that modern gaming wasn't for me. I played some classics, some so-so titles, and some over-rated (and over-priced) pieces of shit (IMO), just like I had on X-box and 'Cube. And after a year or so when the novelty of being 'hardcore' had worn off and I regained a little common sense, I realised that I also quite missed current-gen gaming, playing solely 2D titles didn't make my opinion any more valid than anyone else's, and there was room for both in my gaming life. Same with music, I'm not going to stop listening to Pearl Jam because I just discovered (insert name of uber-credible underground band here). Both offer different expereinces, and if you ignore one solely in favour of the other, either way you're gonna miss some good shit.

2D gave me DoDonPachi, Rolling Thunder, Super Mario World and Street Fighter II
3D gave me Vice City, Zelda OOT, Prince Of Persia SOT and Halo

Just a selection of my all-time greats, and I'd hate to think I could have missed out on any of them due to sheer ignorance, or some short sighted opioion that 2D rendered 3D pointless, or vice versa.

[Ghegs]

Good games are good games. Bad games are bad games. No matter how much they sold in stores or how much you paid for them.

As for what actually are good games or bad games, that's up to the individual to decide for themselves. I have a theory that there isn't a game out there that nobody would like - even if 99.9% of world population thinks it's crap, somebody somewhere will think it's the greatest thing ever and quite possibly dedicate a webpage for it. Works vice versa, too. There isn't a game that everybody would like.

Just last Saturday I finally finished off Sly 2: Band Of Thieves with 100% completion rate. I had fun doing that. Last Sunday I 1CCed Gradius on NES. I had fun doing that, too.

[Turrican]

If I wanted a plot, I would read a book

In the end, I think that if someone is getting enjoyment from a game that's based only in the plot, then good for him . I think Snatcher gotta be a great game, even though it's main point is exactly the plot.

You think it "gotta be" ? You haven't played it? Please do so!

And, there's plenty of badly written books with shitty plot, you know.

Yes, but I think the way the game is narrated, and the story is told without EVER interrupting the action (The cut-scenes never lasts for more than 10 seconds, and are just icing in the cake) it's what people should learn.

Close Shatterhand, close but no cigar.

1= Another World cutscenes do blend very well with the rest of the game, but nonetheless they interrupt it.

2=What's revolutionary in AW is that the game is conceived in a cinematographic way. The cutscenes are not the icing on the cake at all. They are absolutely necessary: the intro is perfect for setting the story, the black beast appearance, you waking up in the cell (eyes that adjust their vision). These moments ARE THE MAIN BULK of the game. Remove them, and you have Prince of Persia. Quite simply, if you appreciate AW, you basically appreciate the cinematographic representation of PoP.

Like I said, and I just wanted to say again, to make sure everyone reads that. Another World/Out of this World is one of the GREATEST MOMENTS IN GAMING HISTORY. Rarely, and I mean RARELY ever the gaming history had such another high point as this.

So true. Do you happen to agree with me, that while Flashback is a step forward in terms of gameplay, it is a stepback in narrative? It does use of writing, and so it's not a "silent movie" anymore. Moreover, cutscenes do blend a lot less smoothly with the rest.

Of course, it's still a 9/10 in my book.

[Shatterhand]

well... ok, I'll agree the cut-scenes do add too much to the game.... the intro was breathtaking for the era, and still is one of the most amazing intros today.

I played Snatcher on MSX for a while, the portuguese-translated version. (The MSX and the PC-98 versions are the original ones, with more gore and a different ending to the later versions (Including the SEGA-CD one)), but I got stuck very early, and I didn't play it too much later.

I think that's just reflects my way of playing games. I got stuck, and I just couldn't bother with the game anymore, because I wasn't, saying, dodging bullets.


And back to Another World, I agree with you when you compare it to Flashback. When Flashback was released, I instantly said it was better than Another World (It's longer, it's harder, the gameplay is improved), but in the end it doesn't have the same feeling of Another World.

That's something I want to study and analize better in the future... when thinking of videogames, I always thought that the "mechanical" part is waht's important (I.E. what you are actually doing with your body while playing the game), while now I believe that the atmosphere that the game puts you in is as much important as the gameplay.

That's the difference about Another World and Flashback. If you analize both only in terms of GAMEPLAY, Flashback is the superior game... but Another World makes you feel much more like you are INTO the history, that YOU ARE Lester Chalkin. Shit, I've seen people just WATCHING me playing Another World, and they were extremely into the experience, they were CHEERING for the hero, people CARED about him, just by WATCHING me playing the game. I can't say any other game managed to do that.

But like you said, Flasback stil a top-notch game for sure. It's one of the games I most played in my life (To the point I could finish the game in HARD level without dying)

I am trying to organize those ideas in my mind better.... this stuff about atmosphere being as important as the gameplay.... I noticed that in several instances, maybe we could get deeper in this, if there's any interest

[Turrican]

I played Snatcher on MSX for a while, the portuguese-translated version. (The MSX and the PC-98 versions are the original ones, with more gore and a different ending to the later versions (Including the SEGA-CD one)

Different ending? In a sense... I thought the msx original ended with Act 2. Act 3 was added with Duo/Mega Cd versions, and luckily, as it explains a lot.

I think that's just reflects my way of playing games. I got stuck, and I just couldn't bother with the game anymore, because I wasn't, saying, dodging bullets.

But like you said, Flasback stil a top-notch game for sure. It's one of the games I most played in my life (To the point I could finish the game in HARD level without dying)

m-my best compliments!

That's something I want to study and analize better in the future... when thinking of videogames, I always thought that the "mechanical" part is waht's important (I.E. what you are actually doing with your body while playing the game), while now I believe that the atmosphere that the game puts you in is as much important as the gameplay.

I am trying to organize those ideas in my mind better.... this stuff about atmosphere being as important as the gameplay.... I noticed that in several instances, maybe we could get deeper in this, if there's any interest

Oh, I am, like, a total atmosphere bitch. It could be mistaken for "graphic whore", but "atmosphere bitch" is an entirely different concept: I find more atmosphere in Xevious than in the most recent shmups.
Atmosphere is what sells me into a game, definitely.
Otherwise, I doubt I could enjoy R-Type Final as I do.

[Turrican]

Speaking of DMA, Rockstar and shmups:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/18 ... 24580.html

An E3 interview with Menace's daddy!