Shmups- Progression? Regression? Depression?

[t0yrobo]

being such a niche genre it's kinda hard for anyone to do anything too out there. I've been wanting to see a underwater based shooter that simulates fluid dynamics though, I don't know how it'd play but it'd look really cool at least.

[Dave_K.]

being such a niche genre it's kinda hard for anyone to do anything too out there. I've been wanting to see a underwater based shooter that simulates fluid dynamics though, I don't know how it'd play but it'd look really cool at least.

In the Hunt

Your slow ship shows accurate fluid dynamics.

[t0yrobo]

being such a niche genre it's kinda hard for anyone to do anything too out there. I've been wanting to see a underwater based shooter that simulates fluid dynamics though, I don't know how it'd play but it'd look really cool at least.

In the Hunt

Your slow ship shows accurate fluid dynamics.

Thanks, I'll have to check that out. I think the part of the idea that I'm most attracted to isn't even gameplay related. I just think it'd be fun to see the movement from your ship and bullets make enemies list to the side and seaweed sway. Controlling a ship that realistic moves in water could be a huge pain in the ass though.

[Ed Oscuro]

I would like to see water swirling around the sides of the ship ;)

[320x240]

being such a niche genre it's kinda hard for anyone to do anything too out there. I've been wanting to see a underwater based shooter that simulates fluid dynamics though, I don't know how it'd play but it'd look really cool at least.

It would probably play like shit. Physics are better left to bullets and bullets alone.

Edited to say: And enemy formations.

[it290]

More flexible damage modeling for destroyed enemy ships? It would be cool if you could shoot down an enemy, and have them crash into another, creating some sort of chain reaction.

[Ed Oscuro]

It would be cool if you could shoot down an enemy, and have them crash into another, creating some sort of chain reaction.

The Next Asteroids

[iatneH]

Mass-preserving explosions please.

And then they could leave rubble that stays there when you loop the game.

[I'm Alec]

More flexible damage modeling for destroyed enemy ships? It would be cool if you could shoot down an enemy, and have them crash into another, creating some sort of chain reaction.

Try Airraid Air

[Udderdude]

Mass-preserving explosions please.

And then they could leave rubble that stays there when you loop the game.

That does not progress the genre as much as it does look pretty. And annoy you in loop 2.

[Hulkcore]

More flexible damage modeling for destroyed enemy ships? It would be cool if you could shoot down an enemy, and have them crash into another, creating some sort of chain reaction.

There's a freeware aptly named "Chain" that is exactly this. It's on the shoot the core PC list. It's fun.


What? Innovation in the shooter genre?! no one would want anything to do with it.

[it290]

Hmm, I'll have to check that out. I do like Airrade Air as well but it's not exactly along the lines of what I was thinking about.

The doujin connection brings up an interesting point though - it seems like many of the most innovative games are doujin/freeware, since they have the ability to try and fail without a big economic risk. The few remaining commercial companies releasing shooters aren't really able to deviate from the formula all that much.

A game like Ether Vapor is a good example: great concept, fairly innovative in some ways, and also not all that playable -- but perhaps good inspiration for future efforts.

[worstplayer]

What? Innovation in the shooter genre?! no one would want anything to do with it.

It's not like we have anything against your game.
It's just that taking most hated feature in shmups (healthbar abuse) and designing whole game around it just feels wrong.

...and maybe i'm mistaken and it will kick ass. Go ahead and try it.

[escadrille]

There's so much still to do that the mind boggles.
I remember the first time I saw Virtua Racing at its debut in the arcades, I looked at my friends all teary-eyed and said "technology can't go much further than this, it's perfection". They all agreed.

The boundaries are limitless. It's hard to imagine a game like Ikaruga until someone does it. And what about a game in which you aren't a spaceship but an entity that skips from enemy spacechip to enemy spaceship, turning the spaceship you invade to the spaceship you control... the possibilities are infinite.
What about a full-360° shmup in which you rotate 360° the visuals to penetrate through spheric bullet patterns with nothing but a few openings.

Shmups can improve with technology. Oh hells yeah.

Precisely. The reason we can't see what the next innovations will be is because they haven't been made yet. Even if the genre's commercial decline prevents major developers from pouring money into new titles the genre is simple enough that a small team can still produce a successful and innovative title (Ikaruga being a prime example).

[Hulkcore]

What? Innovation in the shooter genre?! no one would want anything to do with it.

It's not like we have anything against your game.
It's just that taking most hated feature in shmups (healthbar abuse) and designing whole game around it just feels wrong.

...and maybe i'm mistaken and it will kick ass. Go ahead and try it.

I was mostly joking with that, but it does seem to me that shmup players are fairly resistant to true innovation. Or perhaps they cling to tightly to a strict definition of what a shmup should be.

My personal opinion is that the genre could benefit from some of the features that other games are utilizing without changing the core gameplay of shmups. Things like story, customization, unlockables, branching gameplay based on player action, lengthier play throughs, stronger more developed characters (or characters at all).

The central conflict that I see is the conflict between arcade play and home play. I've got nothing against arcades, I love em and everything that they represent. But economically they are no longer a viable product outside of Asia. Obviously the only people willing to pay hundreds/thousands of dollars to own arcade games are the hardcore minority. The things that are necessary for arcade games, namely short playthrough time and score dependent gameplay, aren't appealing for home gamers in general.

[Shatterhand]

Things like story, customization, unlockables, branching gameplay based on player action, lengthier play throughs, stronger more developed characters (or characters at all).

The thing is that none of this actually makes any difference to the gameplay, and most people who acutally enjoy good games will tell you those features are stupid. (Unlockables is the WORSE thing to happen to gaming. I feel like I've bought an incomplete game when I have to unlock stuff that would make the game play better, like multiplayer modes or stuff)

[sym]

Unlockables is the WORSE thing to happen to gaming.

I'm agreeing with this statement. A lesser skilled player should not be able to compete with the best just because he has played longer.

[Hulkcore]

Things like story, customization, unlockables, branching gameplay based on player action, lengthier play throughs, stronger more developed characters (or characters at all).

The thing is that none of this actually makes any difference to the gameplay, and most people who acutally enjoy good games will tell you those features are stupid. (Unlockables is the WORSE thing to happen to gaming. I feel like I've bought an incomplete game when I have to unlock stuff that would make the game play better, like multiplayer modes or stuff)

There are plenty of unlockable things in games that don't make the gameplay more or less complete. Artwork galleries, character appearance, different ending movies etc... are merely cosmetic but in my opinion add a tangible goal apart from finishing the game or beating a score.

As for the bold statement, I hope you enjoy your elitist seclusion. There are plenty of actually good games that have the things that I mentioned. I'm sure there are plenty of people who "actually enjoy good games" that enjoy things like story, a strong, identifiable hero character, customization, sub-goals, branching pathways through the game. Your statement is ridiculous on all fronts, even if I overlook the fact that you seem to think your opinion of a "good game" or someone who "actually enjoys" them is some sort of concrete definition.[/code]

[honorless]

The thing is that none of this actually makes any difference to the gameplay, and most people who acutally enjoy good games will tell you those features are stupid. (Unlockables is the WORSE thing to happen to gaming. I feel like I've bought an incomplete game when I have to unlock stuff that would make the game play better, like multiplayer modes or stuff)

I disagree with you in part.

Customization—do you like choosing your ship/shot type? I do.

Branching gameplay—I think well-planned route selection based on rank is an excellent idea. I haven't played G-Darius (probably the best example) but I remember StarFox 64 as a kid and trying to get the different routes was awesome.

Unlockables—this one gets a little iffy. I LOVE finding secret EXTRA things. It's like finding a secret prize in your cereal box

What's bad is when the unlockable content should have been present from the first place, the unlockable is not worth the time/effort it takes, or there are NO hints given about how to get it.

Unlock Hard Mode by beating the game once: OK, cool.
Unlock co-op mode: Stupid.
Unlock Rosa by holding A, B & C on P2, then on P1 hit up up up B B A A left left right right blah blah blah: Stupid.
Unlock a new outfit by no-missing the game 10 times in a row: Stupid.

To relate this tl;dr to the OP: More shmups should use branching paths, especially if they're not memorizers. Maybe someone could even try a "roguelike" shmup where the levels are at least partially randomized.

And shmups—no, all games—should banish obscure code sequences known only to the developers.

[Hulkcore]

Mostly by customization I mean things like being able to, for example, change the color of the ships in DDP instead of merely being able to choose between them. What if I like the way the helicopter plays, but I don't like the green? That's a simple customization that, while it wouldn't be practical in an arcade, would be useful and cool in a home release.

And I do like lots of secret stuff and think that these should be used more widely. DDP does a good job of this because I'm constantly finding hidden bees that I've never seen before. But I wish that some of these secrets did something beyond adding another score item to the ten thousand that you come across in the normal game.

And yes, there are things that should be available from the get go. But look at Metal Gear Solid for the PS1. The bandanna and the suit that you unlock depending on how you play through the game, do they totally affect the gameplay the second time through the game? Hell yes. Do they destroy any sense of fair competition (time runs) between someone who has them and someone who doesn't? Hell yes. Are they incredibly fun and make me enjoy playing through a long game two more times just to mess around and play with the invisible suit? Hell yes.

[Shatterhand]

There are plenty of unlockable things in games that don't make the gameplay more or less complete. Artwork galleries, character appearance, different ending movies etc... are merely cosmetic but in my opinion add a tangible goal apart from finishing the game or beating a score.

This is something I am OK with. The "people who actually enjoy games" part was kind stupid from me, so I'll take that.

A good story doesn't make a good game, so it isn't need. It can help a good game become better, but it doesn't make a good game. The same thing about the "Strong, indentifable hero" stuff.

What's "customization" for you? Most of the part is just cosmetic things, or it will give you too many stupid options, people will find the best setup and go for it. Notice how in most shmups, the top scores are ALWAYS with the same ship, and that's when you only have like 3 or 4 of them.

I personally don't like "branching pathways" because I feel I am missing something from the game if I have to choose between routes... unless the game of course is entirely built on this (Like, say, Princess Maker stuff). In Darius Gaiden is OK because you end up playing the game so many times.... yet everyone will usually take the path which is more score-rewarding anyway. Branching Pathways have been done a lot on shmups anyway.

[Zebra Airforce]

Things like story, customization, unlockables, branching gameplay based on player action, lengthier play throughs, stronger more developed characters (or characters at all).

See. none of these are reasons I play shooters. One thing I especially dislike is "lengthier playthroughs". Barf city. Regarding story: I hate cutscenes that can't be skipped. I don't play shooters to sit passively and read, I play them for fast action that requires some deep concentration. Nothing takes away from the action like a screenful of words with character portraits that have a bunch of generic anime expressions.

But I wish that some of these secrets did something beyond adding another score item to the ten thousand that you come across in the normal game.

Getting all of the bees will allow you to see the second loop (plus they are worth a hell of alot more than the other ten thousand score items in the game.)

[Shatterhand]

See. none of these are reasons I play shooters. One thing I especially dislike is "lengthier playthroughs". Barf city. Regarding story: I hate cutscenes that can't be skipped. I don't play shooters to sit passively and read, I play them for fast action that requires some deep concentration. Nothing takes away from the action like a screenful of words with character portraits that have a bunch of generic anime expressions.

[MathU]

Analog movement.

This would negate arcade controls...so I definately would not like this.

How exactly would this negate arcade controls? Elaborate please.

[Dave_K.]

Analog movement.

This would negate arcade controls...so I definately would not like this.

How exactly would this negate arcade controls? Elaborate please.

There are very few arcade games/cabinets which use analog joysticks, and those that do (mostly sports titles and such) have a spongy feel to them. Shmups need high accuracy movement just like fighting games, so I can't see analog arcade sticks working in this instance.

Now if your point was analog console controls (thumbsticks), thats another matter, and by its very nature is not arcade controls.

[Udderdude]

Adding unlockables does not progress the Shmup genre. You could add unlockables to Space Invaders, wouldn't make it any more interesting or fun to play, unless the unlockables were new gameplay modes .. which didn't have to be locked in the first place.

[jonny5]

personally i am all about danmaku games....the more bullet hell the better

my favorite parts are often the bosses or more hectic parts of levels where you are in a sea of bullets for a while and it doesnt let up, just keeps coming

i would like to see some more games where this was pretty much constant...

like cave games, but even more so, if thats possible.....like really tough boss patterns, but ALL THE TIME!!!!

i would enjoy it anyways....and die a lot.....lolz

fun none the less