Intro and Advice

[genezorz]

Yo guys. Saw the forums and I decided to jump in and say hey. I'm a big fan of competitive gaming (played in many professional tournaments), but I recently started playing shmups after ikaruga was released on xbla.

I had played it a few times before, but the genre really only sparked my interest recently. My questions are this:

I'm used to playing a lot of skill based games (DDR, Quakes, Guitar Hero) and in most of those games the players skill is ranked by their ability to pass songs or beat other players. Example: in DDR, you don't really graduate to a good player until you beat Max300 on Heavy.

Is there any sort of understood ranking system like that for the shmup (does anyone else dislike that word?) community? Like beginners play this then graduate to this, etc etc? Ikaruga kicks my ass and it would be cool to actually go in some sort of skillbased order.

Also whats the pro/con of arcade sticks? I hear good things about Hori, but I dont know if its something that people do because its more comfortable for them personally or they do because it's just better and more accurate?

Thanks!

[Etrian]

Hey, welcome. I prefer pads (Saturn pads specifically) for games, but it's just personal taste. I remember one thread that icycalm made where he basically announced that because Japanese players use sticks, that they're better. That's countered by some of the players here who have high scores with pads. I can't get through Stage 5 of Daioujou without my Saturn pad, as evident from me playing with my Hori one.

I don't mind the term "shmup" but not everyone knows what it means. One of my friends absolutely hates it, though.

[kengou]

there are definitely shmups easier and more beginner-friendly than Ikaruga. I would personally start with maybe Battle Bakraid, ESPGaluda, Dodonpachi, Giga Wing, and/or Blue Wish Resurrection. I think those are all reasonable beginner shmups, although I haven't personally 1cc'd any except BWR, I'm a beginner too. Ikaruga is still hard though even compared to most shmups.

[Ed Oscuro]

I would try out some classic shooters myself - Twin Cobra, Soldier Blade (caravan mode certainly), and Armed Police Batrider all have good design and show off various branches of the shooter genre over the spread of roughly nine years.

Psikyo games like Strikers 1945 II or Dragon Blaze are great (IMO) if you wanted to jump into something "modern" - not easy, but they give you a good idea what many of the modern shooters are about without taking up too much time. Nice short levels in those.

Is there any sort of understood ranking system like that for the shmup (does anyone else dislike that word?) community? Like beginners play this then graduate to this, etc etc? Ikaruga kicks my ass and it would be cool to actually go in some sort of skillbased order.

Points, pretty much. Your highscore usually reveals quite a bit about how competent a player one is, i.e. somebody looking at my X00,000 scores for Toaplan games can see I'm a crap player with little concentration and even worse skill at dodging things

With this type of game your performance for each game is measured separately, since scoring systems and point ranges are different (surprise). Many of the games that get a lot of play around here have theoretical limits on scores, i.e. 12 million for one game and so somebody beating 10 million points is going to be pretty competent.

[it290]

Shooting games are kind of like golf: you're theoretically in competition but really you're playing against yourself the whole time.

If you want to ease into the genre I would recommend taking on some old school console shooters like those by Techno Soft and Compile; they won't really prepare you for anything, but they're certainly a nice introduction to the genre (I'd imagine a lot of players here really got started on those as well as Toaplan and Seibu arcade games).

[Shatterhand]

Compile shmups have a tendency to destroy newbies on the genre, but are a cakewalk for veteran shmuppers.

[MR_Soren]

Hello and welcome! We actually have an introduction thread somewhere, but you have enough questions in your post that you probably won't get harassed about it.

I personally hate the term "shmup". I prefer "shooter" but then people think I'm talking about Halo.

I've tried saying "arcade shooters" but people think I'm talking about Lethal Enforcers and House of the Dead.

If I say "2D shooters", games like Contra get included. I eventually went back to saying "shooter" because saying "shmup" out loud is awful and non-shmup fans aren't usually familiar with the term.


I don't think there's a specific recommended game progression. Just pick a game you like and play it a lot. You might want to check out the high score forum to see which games are actually being played by others.

Perhaps Espgaluda or Giga Wing would be good for starting out though.


I consider a stick a must for 2D fighters, but for a shmup it's just personal preference. I like it because it's a more authentic arcade experience, but I don't feel that it really helps. In fact, I think I'm a tiny bit better with a pad on most games.

[Shatterhand]

I consider a stick a must for 2D fighters, but for a shmup it's just personal preference. I like it because it's a more authentic arcade experience, but I don't feel that it really helps. In fact, I think I'm a tiny bit better with a pad on most games.

That's exactly how I feel. I thought playing shmups with a stick made me play better, but after going back and forth, I noticed I actually play better with a pad now. Must be all those years playing with the pad.

But for 2D fighters, there's nothing better than a good stick.

[subcons]

Score. And 1CC (1 credit completion). Credit feeding is a frowned upon. Most newer games from the past decade have some sort of unique scoring mechanic going on. Learn what it is if you want to maximize yours. Playing Ikaruga for score takes some dedication, surely. You need to watch some superplay vids. It's all about the chaining. I suck at chaining past the first stage.

Sticks versus pads, like others have said, comes down to preference. Whatever you're used to or is more comfortable to you. If you aren't used to playing with a stick though, it will take getting used to at first.

And welcome to the world of shooters. There's nothing quite like these games we obsess over.

[spadgy]

I think the Pysvariar games are a good start as though they are ugly as hell you get a taste of heavy bullet counts and a simple scoring system without too much difficulty, And they're easy to find and not too pricy. And have some amazing bullet patterns later on.

I far prefer a stick. You'll find loads in the hardware section about which to buy, how to customise or even build your own from scratch.

Score is the 'ranking'. Get involved with our hi-score threads in the hi-score section. After score the 1CC is the sometimes over-emphasised benchmark.

And yeah - never credit feed!

And hello!

[honorless]

I used to play DDR like a fiend as well. I never had the time to get decent at it though.

Using multiple credits (credit feeding) to get farther in a shooter is like turning on slowdown for a music game. Feel free to do it for practice if you like. But when you get down to business, you just don't.

Pads will be a lot easier for you, since you're already used to playing with them.

Sticks are much more ergonomic, and it's definitely easier to press multiple buttons simultaneously. I'd say they're also more precise, but that really depends upon the stick you get and the controller you're comparing it to... (lol xbox360 dpad)
But starting out with one is like learning how to walk again—a bit frustrating since you know you can do better. (I'm actually at this point right now.)
Also, a good one will cost you $$$...though it will hold its value pretty well, AFAIK. So if you get one and later realize that it's not your thing...you'll probably get most of what you paid for it back.

I'd wait to invest in one later if you're not sure. Shooters are not like DDR or GH, where playing without the special controller is worthless.

[t0yrobo]

I'd suggest setting up mame on your computer and just trying out a whole bunch of different games. Not all scoring systems and play styles appeal to everyone and they can vary quite a lot. Then when you find something that really catches your eye just play like mad.

[Udderdude]

I think the Pysvariar games are ... ugly as hell

[burnman]

I'm a n00b as well, and have a couple questions (not trying to hijak).

Where does everyone play most of their shooter games? I'm guessing MAME, but I'd like to make sure.

What controller do you use for MAME?

Is there a comprehensive list of shooters to check out? (I grew up with Gradius, Galaga, 1942, etc), but would like to get into some others.

For any you play on 360, what controller do you use?

thanks

[Chi_Ryu]

Example: in DDR, you don't really graduate to a good player until you beat Max300 on Heavy.

Subjective. One might say you don't graduate to being a good player until you pass a 9 footer (rather than Max 300 Heavy), someone else might say you aren't a good player until you get a AAA on a song, and a third might say you aren't a good player until you play all songs with no mods, and no bar. Which one is correct...?

In tournaments, the ranking is decided by number of perfects (or other systems as determined before the event). As others have said, for shmups it is on score - but they are designed in this way (rhythm games are not designed in this way - there is such thing as perfect play and therefore an absolute ranking).

The same subjectivity applies for whether or not you are good at shmups, really - where is the hreshold between a "good" and "not good" shmup player? 1CC on a Cave shooter?

Shooters are not like DDR or GH, where playing without the special controller is worthless.

Yes, but do bear in mind that people do play DDR-like games with a keyboard (cf. Stepmania), too. It just becomes a different game to a certain extent (as does playing shmups with MAME on a keyboard, IMO).

[clp]

on the stick subject im not so sure it matters so much with a shmup for example but in 2d fighters sticks definitely require a hell of a lot more skill as you cant spam dpads with a stick , cant believe some ppl play fighters with pads and think its no different .

[Zebra Airforce]

Is there a comprehensive list of shooters to check out?

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=11882

[clp]

I'm a n00b as well, and have a couple questions (not trying to hijak).

Where does everyone play most of their shooter games? I'm guessing MAME, but I'd like to make sure.

What controller do you use for MAME?

Is there a comprehensive list of shooters to check out? (I grew up with Gradius, Galaga, 1942, etc), but would like to get into some others.

For any you play on 360, what controller do you use?

thanks

mame ,sega saturn , playstation 1 n 2 , dreamcast and cabinets with pcbs for the richer folk are the most popular sources here , pcbs are essential if your wanting to play anything released in recent years by cave especially.

[Shatterhand]

Where does everyone play most of their shooter games? I'm guessing MAME, but I'd like to make sure.

Lately I shmup basically on PS2. I play on MAME sometimes too.

What controller do you use for MAME?

I use either an USB PC controller I bought here in Brazil, or sometimes an PS2 Arcade Stick through a PS2-Serial port adaptder

[MR_Soren]

I usually play on a PS2, but I occasionally use Mame.

I use a cheap USB gamepad on MAME.

[burnman]

I am assuming that for PS2 games you are importing stuff from Japan, which means I'd need to get a modchip, unless there are a lot besides Gradius released in the US.

Thanks for the all the replies.

[kengou]

in the US, besides the excellent Gradius V there's also Castle Shikigami II which is really good. And I think there's a Gradius III and IV collection that's NTSC as well

[spadgy]

I think the Pysvariar games are ... ugly as hell

Well - Not Psyvariar 2, and I love Revision Unit's bullet patterns, but Medium Unit and Revision's back drops look like, as somebody here (Perhaps the then DJ Rectal Prolapse) said, a plate of sick

[clp]

yeahhh psyvariar will to fabricate is so damn stunning yet medium unit and revision have some ugly looking shit in there. Burnman yes we import games from japan a fair few of us have japanese ps2s others use modchips others swapdiscs just what ever suits you best really .

[MX7]

but Medium Unit and Revision's back drops look like, as somebody here (Perhaps the then DJ Rectal Prolapse) said, a plate of sick

[nimitz]

Is there any sort of understood ranking system like that for the shmup community? Like beginners play this then graduate to this, etc etc? Ikaruga kicks my ass and it would be cool to actually go in some sort of skillbased order.

I would say a 1CC of a commercial game means you really are starting to play shmups seriously. A 1CC is when you beat a game using only one credit (i.e. when the games asks you to "Continue ?" it means you failed). To give you an idea, Ikaruga on easy mode is considered pretty easy to 1CC.

Also whats the pro/con of arcade sticks? I hear good things about Hori, but I dont know if its something that people do because its more comfortable for them personally or they do because it's just better and more accurate?

1st : they are MUCH more comfortable, you can play for hours with a stick and your thumbs and hands are just fine (unlike a d-pad)

2nd : precision and speed. I have played with a D-pad A LOT over the last 20 years(nes, snes, psx, ps2...) and I have started using a an Arcade stick at home only recently (a year and a half) at first it doesn't feel as good but give it a few months and you can't go back to the D-pad (at least in my case)

If you want a great stick get a HRAP 2 with a seimitsu LS-32 and sanwa/seimitsu buttons. Thats as good as it gets(not exactly cheap though).

Where does everyone play most of their shooter games? I'm guessing MAME, but I'd like to make sure.

What controller do you use for MAME?

Playsytation 2 (for psx and ps2 games), Dreamcast and emulators (MAME, snes, nes, Genesis/Megadrive, PCE and so on)

and I use my ps2 stick with a Super joybox 3 usb adaptor.

Is there a comprehensive list of shooters to check out? (I grew up with Gradius, Galaga, 1942, etc), but would like to get into some others.

Yes, a huge and very well made database of most commercial shmups. but unfortunatly for most of you guys it's in French.

still, you get something pretty good using google translate

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl ... age%3Djeux

[burnman]

cool. Also, I read the WIki about Touhou games, but are they arcade games or are they PC games you can buy?

[ForceDevice]

1st : they are MUCH more comfortable, you can play for hours with a stick and your thumbs and hands are just fine (unlike a d-pad)

Do you really think so? That depends on the player, I guess. I can stand playing for a whole day with a d-pad if needed, but sticks completely destroy my hand after a few minutes. That must have to do with having to move the back of your hand more than your fingers most of the time, don't know... but it's anything but comfortable.

I was going to argue that Medium Unit's backgrounds are awesome, but since I'm probably the biggest Skonec fanboy you'll find and I'm probably blinded by fanboyism, my opinion doesn't really matter. lol

And to fenezorz, try looking for shmups with simple scoring systems, like early Psykio ones. Ikaruga is most definitely the worst way to get into the genre.

[lgb]

And to fenezorz, try looking for shmups with simple scoring systems, like early Psykio ones. Ikaruga is most definitely the worst way to get into the genre.

Not entirely. Look at IGN.

[BulletMagnet]

cool. Also, I read the WIki about Touhou games, but are they arcade games or are they PC games you can buy?

They're "doujin" (non-professional) games, on the PC - you can download demos for several of them (and a bunch of other PC shmups) on Shoot the Core. I recommend them (Perfect Cherry Blossom and Imperishable Night especially) not only because they're very well-made IMO, but are also, while not walks in the park for newcomers, pretty forgiving and a good way to get used to "bullet hell" shooters. You're free to completely ignore the (rather complex) scoring systems and just focus on survival, though as you get better you'll be able to figure out how to change your strategies to take more risks and score better.

Using multiple credits (credit feeding) to get farther in a shooter is like turning on slowdown for a music game. Feel free to do it for practice if you like. But when you get down to business, you just don't.

This is worth repeating, I think - while it's entirely your business whether you want to credit-feed just to see later levels or get some practice, don't submit a high score or claim to have "beaten" a game unless you've done either on one credit.

Welcome to the new one(s), btw.