6th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[jpj]

i like the idea of telling people what they can and can't vote for

[Turrican]

Rob, remember when some Italians tried to organize a shmup tournament here? Remember how they got extremely picky about "proofs", asking not only for pics of the hiscores, but for wolfmame replays and so on?
People gently told them to fuck off, because, well, a tournament it's for fun and most members around here trusted each other.

A reason more to gave shmuppers credit when it comes to a simple poll. I know more than one people that refrained from posting a top25 last years. I don't think there are many willingly ignoring the rules just to post their lists. Now call me naive, but...

[Rob]

Cry about it. (lol, @jpj)

[jpj]

it sounds wicked.

people should also vote for verticals, horizontals, vertizontals, and isometrics.

i mean that goes without saying

[Turrican]

It's stricter, because it's going to limit people's taste,

I see it as requiring people show more of their taste (and not how limited it is). They could still have the Cave game at #1 and Treasure at #2 and another Cave game at 3, which would be reflected in the results. Then they'll show that they know something else.

You know, I'm sorta flattered because it's almost as if you red my point C) and liked it so much that you decided to make it mandatory for everyone else. ^_^

But it's still wrong. People should keep the right to vote for every single Gradius out there, if they feel the games are different and worthy enough to do so. Just like they have the right to vote for as many Cave games as they feel.

[Rob]

Rob, remember when some Italians tried to organize a shmup tournament here? Remember how they got extremely picky about "proofs", asking not only for pics of the hiscores, but for wolfmame replays and so on?
People gently told them to fuck off, because, well, a tournament it's for fun and most members around here trusted each other.

I think this fell apart because of something else - calling people cheaters for no good reason. I think it's perfectly fine to request proof for a comp. but crying out at "cheaters" with scores that have nothing to do with that or any other competition was their problem.

[Rob]

it sounds wicked.

people should also vote for verticals, horizontals, vertizontals, and isometrics.

i mean that goes without saying

People also aren't allowed to vote for games like Gunspike, Space Harrier and Contra, which some people think are just as much shooters as R-Type or DonPachi. It's the nature of polls like this to draw lines.

[The Coop]

If I may, here's an example of why I think your idea is flawed, Rob...


Let's say someone really likes 1943Kai , Eco Fighters, and Giga Wing 2. All three are Capcom games, and since Capcom made a fair number of shmups in their lifetime, it means Capcom gets 2 slots. What's the player supposed to do? All three games play very differently, and offer different experiences from different eras. There's no DDP1.7/DDP2.1 going on there, yet now the player has to get rid of one of what would otherwise be a top 25 shmup to them. That is a serious flaw in the search for a top 25 list. You can just as easily run into the same problem with Taito, Konami, Namco, and other companies who have made a more diverse range of shmups.

The thing to do is not limit a player's choices to 2 or 3 per company, but to allow them to choose as they see fit according to their tastes, and experience. That's the only way you're going to get closer to a true top 25 as voted on by shmups.org posters. If a poster's experience isn't that great and they admit it, then perhaps a case could be made for them to stick with the top 10 list until they get more under their belt. Limiting choices for those of us who have played a lot of shmups, under the guise of "showing more diversity", makes painfully little sense to me.

[Turrican]

Rob, remember when some Italians tried to organize a shmup tournament here? Remember how they got extremely picky about "proofs", asking not only for pics of the hiscores, but for wolfmame replays and so on?
People gently told them to fuck off, because, well, a tournament it's for fun and most members around here trusted each other.

I think this fell apart because of something else - calling people cheaters for no good reason. I think it's perfectly fine to request proof for a comp. but crying out at "cheaters" with scores that have nothing to do with that or any other competition was their problem.

Ah, you have a point there. That was perhaps a bad example. Even more so since one can easily offer proof of an high score, much less he can prove to others his level of acquaintance with shmups. Who'd judge it?

I see it as requiring people show more of their taste (and not how limited it is)

That's the problem, you can't draw more taste from a limited source. The only goal you'd achieve would be to narrow voters.
But you're doing this on the base of a "possibly wrong" assumption.

Let's say I post a top 25 with a dozen Doremipachi in it. Your assumption is that I'm not acquainted with Brilliant Bronzerifle and the likes. It could be. But it could also be that I know them well, despise them, and prefer to vote for all Doremipachis, similar from the outside, but plenty of differences to an expert eye.

[jp]

I think Rob is just getting annoyed with the Cave kids, which I can't really blame him. Its "Oh... 20% of the top 25 games on this board are all vertical manics where if you hold down the button you shoot a giant laser and move slower but if you tap the button you shoot bullets. And... apparently this is the best formula for a game ever... or something."

I mean, hell, I voted for a Cave game, and I'm sure whenever I play Ketsui it might get up there too. Even Dagun Feveron was considered for my list. But holy shit, do we really need every single iteration of DDP and Mushiwhatever? I mean... I don't see anyone voting for Thunder Force III AND Thunder Force AC, or Batsugun AND Batsugun Special.

I dunno, just seems odd. I don't really care. People can vote for what they want. It just strikes me as odd to see a solid 5th-a quarter of someone's list contain the same name followed by a number.


Edit:
Yes, I know I voted for 4 Tecno Soft shmups. Generally, as a personal rule, I try to limit myself to 2-4 games from the same company pending on how differently they make their games, but this year I just decided to go "To hell with it" and just throw all the TS stuff up, since I was one of the view following my rule.

[nimitz]

I think the best way to get around this "problem" would be to have people vote for 50 shmups instead of 25. This way we would get more interesting and diversified results.

Its true that some could get around this by posting random shmups in the bottom ranks, like they do for the top 25, but it would still be better.

[Enhasa]

Nobody is actually suggesting we replace the current method with this new developer thing. It would just be an interesting alternate idea. But as much as I think people should just vote what they like, Rob's alt list is much more agreeable to me than the actual top25 fwiw.

Rob said something like that too. I guess we could found a "shameful regret" circle. I should have given all my pie weight to Gradius V.

Can I join? I wasn't even around last year.

In fact, this may be the reason why we see so many Cave/Treasure shmups get high ranking. Because the fans are usually not worried about putting 7 or more Cave games in their lists, or all Treasure shmups.

Biggest trend this year: Rounding out the rest of your top25 with Cave knockoffs like Blue Wish Resurrection.

This year I think it'd be nice to get a bit of background from each voter in this thread discussing the criteria used for creating their personal list.

I just voted for games I like, but of course if you look at someone's list you can notice trends. Apparently I like: rank, PVP, bullet manipulation, lockon lasers.

Let's say I post a top 25 with a dozen Doremipachi in it. Your assumption is that I'm not acquainted with Brilliant Bronzerifle and the likes. It could be. But it could also be that I know them well, despise them, and prefer to vote for all Doremipachis, similar from the outside, but plenty of differences to an expert eye.

Pretty sure it's more like Hulkcore's post in this thread.

[Rob]

Let's say someone really likes 1943Kai , Eco Fighters, and Giga Wing 2. All three are Capcom games,

Who made what would certainly have to be sorted out. I'd call Giga Wing 2 a Takumi game.

One last thought on this idea. I enjoy my favorite Psikyo games about equally and could easily narrow it down to two selections. Noting other ballots, I feel pressured to include so many different versions of Psikyo games because those one or two selections would be up against every other list with 7 Cave games. It encourages a kind of block voting approach, furthering lack of variety.

[Turrican]

One last thought on this idea. I enjoy my favorite Psikyo games about equally and could easily narrow it down to two selections. Noting other ballots, I feel pressured to include so many different versions of Psikyo games because those one or two selections would be up against every other list with 7 Cave games. It encourages a kind of block voting approach, furthering lack of variety.

That's one possible answer. Another one, perhaps more useful, would be to gather consensus among Psikyo fans on a single game to push forward. I have a couple of vertical slots free, and I don't have a Psikyo entry, but I appreciate their games, so I would accept suggestions.

[Rob]

Dragon Blaze or, no wait, Strikers II.

[The Coop]

ZERO GUNNER 2

Let's say someone really likes 1943Kai , Eco Fighters, and Giga Wing 2. All three are Capcom games,

Who made what would certainly have to be sorted out. I'd call Giga Wing 2 a Takumi game.

That would get into a whole new semantics world... one which would likely lead to arguments of stellar proportions

One last thought on this idea. I enjoy my favorite Psikyo games about equally and could easily narrow it down to two selections. Noting other ballots, I feel pressured to include so many different versions of Psikyo games because those one or two selections would be up against every other list with 7 Cave games. It encourages a kind of block voting approach, furthering lack of variety.

I think that's a chance we have to take. We should rely on people to vote honestly, and not give more points to a game than they normal would just to bump it up in the standings. Honesty in voting and all that. If you really feel there are reasons to have all three Strikers games, plus both Gunbird games, on your list... if you feel they each offer something more than various Cave, Technosoft and Takumi games... then I have no problem with your voting for them, as long as you're doing it truthfully

[Rob]

ZERO GUNNER 2

Flip a coin.

If you really feel there are reasons to have all three Strikers games, plus both Gunbird games, on your list...

I like 'em more than other games but don't think there's a good reason for including all. Most best of lists of any kind narrow it down to one of a type. Even IGN does this and they suck!

[Arvandor]

My god, why are you people so bitter about a game companies popularity? I bet if there were more games that followed the Mars Matrix forumula, you'd love them all and they'd all rank in your top 25, unless you intentionally left them out for the simple reason of trying to be diverse.

It just so happens that the standard Cave forumla has been used a lot, and is loved by many. Why that's such a crime, I'm not sure.

Edit: I'd be interested in seeing a Japanese top 25 shmups of all time from their shmup community. If they even bother with such nonsense -_^

[nimitz]

I think the problem is that the Top 25 looks more like a top 10 because of games of the same series, "clones" and games very similar by the same developer.

Thats why I still think that making a top 50 is the way to go, this way everyone can put all the games by their favorite developer in the list and still have a lot room for other shmups by other developers.

[Rob]

I bet if there were more games that followed the Mars Matrix forumula,

I wouldn't want multiple anything on the list unless each earned it by being selected the best of its type. Rather than cluster voting in everything similar.

Most best of lists of any kind narrow it down to one of a type.

This is what I think a good best of list is. I would already pick Mars Matrix over any Giga Wing without thinking twice. It represents that gaming style perfectly. If there were more like MM I'd pick the best one.

Also note, it's a suggestion, and one I backed up.

[Arvandor]

Yeah, I can understand that point. Top 50 would indeed be interesting, but I like the idea of the fans of each company getting together and trying to decide on one or two of the clones to push as the best of the best.

I went back over my list, knowing I had a lot of Cave on there, but realized that the only game I'd even sort of feel the need to drop for cloning issues is Dodonpachi. And even then, it's so much more accessible than DOJ, that I felt it deserved a slot.

[Rob]

I like the idea of the fans of each company getting together and trying to decide on one or two of the clones to push as the best of the best.

How is this any different from my idea, except for the whole letting people decide for themselves part?

[Arvandor]

Well, I wasn't directly knocking your idea. Not intentionally anyways. Just the general bitterness towards Cave's popularity.

But there's still that subjectivity problem. I don't think DOJ makes DDP obsolete at all, mainly because of the accessibility thing.

[Rob]

Just the general bitterness towards Cave's popularity.

Cave games are consistently good and I like them. Seeing a ton of their games on the list still makes it look like crap. Not useful to beginners, not interesting for us to talk about - what's the point?

[Arvandor]

Good point =)

The useful to beginner's part is another good argument for me keeping both DDP and DOJ though. Which you'd disagree with, yes? They're too clone, right? I dunno, it'd be like a borderline debate, only the line is even finer and harder to draw.

[Rob]

You could still pick both*, at the expense of their other games. See, it'd be interesting to see how this would work out with games like those two pitted against each other. That'd be something to talk about (instead: DDP again).

*thx to nimitz's suggestion

[Arvandor]

But see, then there's the problem The Coop brought up. What if someone's top games were Dangun Feveron, Dodonpachi: Dai Ou Jou, Guwange, Progear, and ESPgaluda? They're all quite different from each other, and are all Cave games. Limiting someone on how many games per developer they can vote on would hurt the diversity just as much as it would help it. It would do more damage to the Guwanges of the shmup world than the DDPs. It'd also hurt Cave a lot more than say Treasure or Taito.

Perhaps the top 50 suggestion isn't so bad after all =D

[The Coop]

Unfortunately Rob, I think in making it more interesting to talk about for us, you sacrifice selectability as a whole. Don't get me wrong. I'd like to see a list set up like this, just to find out what people think what a given company's best and runners up are. I just don't think it fits with the goal of the top 25.


A bit off topic, but didn't we have a thread a while back that talked about what was good for beginners?

[Rob]

Perhaps the top 50 suggestion isn't so bad after all =D

With respect to nimitz, I cringe at 50.

I'd vote for Guwange.

[Twiddle]

Include run and guns, first person shooters, third person shooters, and flightsims and maybe I'll vote in a top 50.