Art and Shmups

[JoshF]

art is a drawing on a paper lol

[Hulkcore]

That's not "logic," it's a rhetorical question. Learn the difference.

Your rhetorical question, when extended to its conclusion, is based on the absurd logic that there is no need to differentiate between different things. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you can't think outside of strict definitions.

You leave us all without guidance as to how or when insects and humans should be differentiated, which is a very concrete problem.

he topic at hand, art and games, we are examining it in relation to the criticism and study of shmups. Again, you fail to see past the immediate.

The fairly obvious follow-up to this line (for my part) is to remind you of the original context of my replies; I've seen the "game art is not actually art, or is not actually commercial, or it's not a game" argument too many times already (once was more than enough, and did you see Icycalm's No More Heroes review?).

Perhaps you should have stated that thought more clearly in your original post.

If it's an opinion then you'd better get to finding examples to disprove it, else you fall into the same trap.

Do you not know the word opinion? By nature they cannot be proven or disprooven because they do not fall into the realm of fact.

1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

Therefore, if you feel what you stated was not an opinion, you are obligated to provide the proof, not I.

Speaking of facts (and logic), I see none there - just an overly long and unnecessary assault on an opinion. Save your words for when they're required.

I'll speak my words whenever I please. I'm wordy, get over it. Also, I stated very clearly that I disagreed with your opinion, you're not obligated to care. Also, it's only your opinion that it was unnecessary.

About time you got to an argument, a sparse one, but workable! When somebody cries, is that art? When somebody talks, is that art also? Oscar Wilde's "The Decay of Lying" might amuse you; his fictitious surrogate takes the stance that art is about magnifying or clarifying man's emotions and tragedies - or, at points, that art is about bringing pure ideals into the real world and letting life deal with them, as life imitates art - "Life holds the mirror up to Art."

Of course, you would rather degrade Mr. Wilde's memory by always tying art to some vulgar "emotion" or "giddy feeling in the pit of the stomach or thereabouts," in which case I again must ask: Why not commercial work, then? It brings something intangible desired by our natures closer to the surface.

Thank you for failing to see my point and then re-articulating it for me. Though, I do not always tie art to emotion or this giddy feeling you seem to attribute to me as saying. Emotion is a word, a placeholder for a human experience, life. Your failure to understand that is not my problem.

As for your question, you'll have to clarify what you mean by commercial work as that term seems to be in dispute below...

Yes. I suppose there's schizophrenics and the other categories of disturbed persons, we mustn't forget them.

I honestly have no idea what the hell you're talking about here.

On trolling: Didn't call you a troll. On reading: Get better at it then. Advance your arguments earlier, please.

You certainly inferred that was trolling. And, I'll advance my arguments at the pace I see fit. You're not obligated to read them.

"Commercial" isn't followed by "art" in it290's post in the way you think it is, and has a different meaning there.

Perhaps he could speak for himself about the issue?

Commercial promotion often communicates a desirable "ideal" (for example: You're ugly, you need / please use this shampoo to become beautiful) which art most closely matches of all the disciplines.

My only disagreement here is once again the definition of the word art, or the lack thereof. Also, what other disciplines are we talking about here? Carpentry? Theology?

There certainly are forms of art that are not intended to be commercial (street graffiti is one, so is performance art), although there are still two problems with the "non-commercial art" idea:

Surely you see the flaw in this statement? No art forms were intended to be commercial. Speaking in art forms is hardly appropriate. Surely street graffiti and performance art may be used commercially, at least representations of them, i.e. video of a performance, image of graffiti.

etc...

I disagree with most of what is said here. You have interesting theories on how to define every single activity in the world as commercial, but that is simply pointless. Breathing, therefore is commercial because think of the financial losses that would follow if I decided not too!! OH MY!!

As for your final statement, it is relevant to me, it was simply not articulated by you until now. I don't agree that it's useless to differentiate the two because I feel that video games have been on the brink of becoming an art form, with some exceptions crossing the threshold, for some time now. And I would like to see them move past mere entertainment and into the realm of art more substantially. I would like to seem them start asking questions, making statements, revealing human nature, etc... instead of merely trying to keep people's minds numb for a few hours. You disagree, I really don't care that you do. Congrats, we're at a stalemate...

[Skykid]

and congratulations on destroying my understanding of vocabulary. I haven't seen super descriptive anally powerful use of a dictionary in awhile. GOOD TIMES to be had here.

Lol, I didn't think the language was unnecessarily descriptive - I like to see people using language effectively to fight their corner.

I too liked the review, Sky. Smile Keep it up.

Thanks Kozo! Don't call me Sky though, makes me sound like a girl!

Before this topic races away wildly, I'd just like to point out that the review only mentioned the game being directly artistic at one major point:

It is in itself, coupled with the simplistic purity of the shoot-em-up genre, perhaps the closest a video-game has come to representing an artistic endeavour in a non-abstract fashion (see Tetsuya Miziguchi’s ‘Rez’ for the abstract example.)

Just my opinion of course - but if you note the 'artistic endeavour' phrase, you'll see I haven't directly offered it up as 'art', that's for you to judge. I still appreciate its a commercial work above all else.

You can find the full review here if you're interested:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=19412

If you have to rip into it, try to do it in a nice, constructive fashion - it took me a long time to write and I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it (at least nothing to really offend anyone.)

Now that's out of the way, feel free to carry on tearing each other apart.

[JoshF]

perhaps the closest a video-game has come to representing an artistic endeavour in a non-abstract fashion (see Tetsuya Miziguchi’s ‘Rez’ for the abstract example.)

THE RHYTHM IS GOING TO GET YOU

[Skykid]

lol!

And it does!

[JoshF]

Yeah, it's like pure synergy.

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't agree that it's useless to differentiate the two because I feel that video games have been on the brink of becoming an art form

Actually, I would like to get serious here, and say that I don't feel it is useless to make a distinction so much as it is slightly insulting to many classic game designers. For many of them "balance" wasn't an issue; the issue was finding new ways of making the computer entertaining on a limited program budget. Certainly many of the pioneer designers couldn't draw, and unbalanced their games with haphazard mechanics, but they were akin to the first artists wrapping bits of animals around sticks and wondering if there was an arrangement more appealing than another. Wonder at the idea you could get a fairly complex machine to sing your tune still held say.

I'd consider that the novel is a form of literature that continues to be developed up to the present day which has been developed from journals, the songs of troubadours, and that whole storytelling/song tradition going back tens of thousands of years (at least). It simply takes time for the collective theory and language of games (or any new artform) to be built up; shmups due to their nature have been able to progress to certain pinnacles of refinement but even there more may be done. The common 3D game on store shelves is only recently beginning to experiment effectively with ways to balance gameplay and (critically) provide replay value.

As for the rest of the quote train: When you break it, it's time to let it go, but...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you can't think outside of strict definitions.

Hey pot! It's kettle. You do remember that you keep posting dictionary definitions and attempted to harass it290 over his use of the words "commercial art," I hope?

[T]he topic at hand, art and games, we are examining it in relation to the criticism and study of shmups. Again, you fail to see past the immediate.

Yes, that's why I've broadened the field and why you can't break from the quote train. Stunning!

Perhaps you should have stated that thought more clearly in your original post.

We're having all sorts of fun as a result. You know, when two people talk face-to-face it's generally understood that what might appear a generalization is meant to apply only to the topic at hand. I can't blame you for thinking otherwise; after all, everybody's an idiot on the Internet (even when they're obviously not, it seems).

If it's an opinion then you'd better get to finding examples to disprove it, else you fall into the same trap.

Do you not know the word opinion? By nature they cannot be proven or disprooven because they do not fall into the realm of fact. [HOLY BROKEN QUOTES BATMAN] 1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty. 2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal[/BROKEN] Therefore, if you feel what you stated was not an opinion, you are obligated to provide the proof, not I.

That's exactly the point: It's not simply an "opinion" after all; you muddled the water when you claimed it was somehow "opinion stated as fact." It's more of a theory, really, and it should be quite easy to claim that art is not "simply a way of marketing something," and incidentally "marketing something - your ideas, yourself..." is another way of saying "communicating ideas, emotions, etc..." and whatever else possibly fills a head after the elipsis intrudes.

By the way, this was an intentionally provided potential connection.

Also, it's only your opinion that it was unnecessary.

Good, good.

Thank you for failing to see my point and then re-articulating it for me. Though, I do not always tie art to emotion or this giddy feeling you seem to attribute to me as saying. Emotion is a word, a placeholder for a human experience, life. Your failure to understand that is not my problem.

Refer to the sentence two above.

Yes. I suppose there's schizophrenics and the other categories of disturbed persons, we mustn't forget them.

I honestly have no idea what the hell you're talking about here.

Maybe if you didn't break your beloved quote train you'd be able to figure it out.

"Commercial" isn't followed by "art" in it290's post in the way you think it is, and has a different meaning there.

Perhaps he could speak for himself about the issue?

He already did. He's clearly seeking to break the definition, so you'll actually need to consider the implications of calling "Fine Art" a form of "commercial art" beyond going to the 'net and looking up a definition.

Commercial promotion often communicates a desirable "ideal" (for example: You're ugly, you need / please use this shampoo to become beautiful) which art most closely matches of all the disciplines.

My only disagreement here is once again the definition of the word art, or the lack thereof. Also, what other disciplines are we talking about here? Carpentry? Theology?

If you please; it doesn't hurt my argument to say that carpenters and even theologists promote their work and their ideas.

I disagree with most of what is said here. You have interesting theories on how to define every single activity in the world as commercial, but that is simply pointless. Breathing, therefore is commercial because think of the financial losses that would follow if I decided not too!! OH MY!!

This is what you could call the other end of the string placed up above, and your reply is what I'd call fairly obvious. Glad you had some fun with it, really.

[professor ganson]

On the other hand, nearly all postmodernism is complete crap and should be avoided.

I actually don't agree with this point. For example, here is an awesome
piece of postmodern art:

Good postmodern artwork-- I'll concede that point. I'm a philosophy professor, so I was thinking about the nonsensical philosophical writings that I've read.

[kozo]

I too liked the review, Skykid. Keep it up.

Thanks Kozo! Don't call me Sky though, makes me sound like a girl!

Huh? What?

[lgb]

Artwork goes along with the era, usually. Artwork is great, but not required. Cho Ren Sha anyone?

[spadgy]

I've always had to separate 'art' and 'style/design/aesthetics' in my head, because there's two sides that I feel so conversely about.

Working where I do in London (Shoreditch/Hoxton), there's all these arty pretentious wankers with their sensationalist fashion and their pathetic adoration for 'shocking' clothes and hair, and their ridiculous attemts at engaging the public with art, and their blind belief that horrid white galleries can change the world.

To me - that is art. A dickhead's interest.

Then, there's the fact I love game graphics, music, comics, tattoos, good writing, flyers, album covers etc etc etc. You get the idea. To me I think of the word 'art' as an insult, so I can't call that kind of thing art, so I call it 'style/design/aesthetics' or whatever fits, and to me that's where 'art' in games goes...

Of course I'm being an idiot, as in a way I'm breaking it all down into to 'what Spadgy likes' and 'what Spadgy doesn't'. But, that said, the way I use/interpret the word 'art' isn't really to do with the way things look, but the type of person that associates with it.

Put more succinctly, artists have made me want to disassociate what I like from the word 'art'

Shmups aren't art. They're better than that...

[JoshF]

Shmups aren't art. They're better than that...

They can be, but only if they feature bright neon colors and a gaybar soundtraOH MY GOD CAN YOU FEEL THE RHYTHM OF THE MOMENT????? This also works with other genres. Usually the worse a game is as a game and the more it emulates other mediums the more it is a work of art. Killer 7, Audiosurf, now that is ART. Ketsui? Metal Slug? Street Fighter II? Ughh, how positively uncultured...

[Skykid]

Artwork goes along with the era, usually. Artwork is great, but not required. Cho Ren Sha anyone?

Good point, that game qualifies for me!

Hey Spadgy, nice to see you mucking in. I'm in much agreement with your standpoint on Modern Art, especially with my exposure to the Hoxton massive. Honestly, its a bunch of bohemian's living in squalor with daddy's platinum card in the back pocket of a pair of unwashed jeans. I can't stand it, I would almost consider it a form of ego-mania the way those people choose to live, talk and behave.

But I don't want to get drawn into a conversation on the value of modern-art, that would just go on too long. Suffice to say my closest friend just finished his degree at the Royal College in London, and coming from humble backgrounds he has no fear of telling it how it is, even if its the field in which he's going to make his trade. To put it bluntly, modern art is a form of trend and commerce - there is very little left except sensationalism for the sake of it. Most is utter garbage, it all depends on the marketing. And those artists who stand at the top, such as Damien Hirst, are some of the best door-to-door salesmen I know.

[jpj]

is there a definition of 'art' that can't be contradicted in less than four sentences...?

[JoshF]

The perceptible manifestation of pure unmitigated emotion!

[icycalm]

A public service announcement:

http://insomnia.ac/commentary/for_artfags_only/

[Zebra Airforce]

Killer 7

Yo, buddy, Killer 7 is highly streamlined, well executed action title. Don't confuse it with No More Heroes !

[jpj]

The perceptible manifestation of pure unmitigated emotion!

i know you're joking, but there are many example of famous artworks that only portray inanimate objects. if i draw a cartoon face with some tears dropping from the eyes, is this art?

[JoshF]

A picture is a picture.

[icycalm]

Hey guys, can sfjsfsf be fskdf?

I am not joking, this is a serious question. Let's start a ten-page thread and discuss it. I need to get to the bottom of this otherwise I won't be able to get any sleep tonight.

[jpj]

but in your own words, it is itself: a perceptible manifestation of pure unmitigated emotion.

[JoshF]

lol true

[Zebra Airforce]

Icycalm had to edit his post because he spelled sfjsfsf wrong

[jpj]

art is a man-made work of beauty (?). and our differences in opinion stem from what we agree to represent beauty because we all find different aesthetics to be pleasing (?).

(i hate the word 'art' and never use it to describe stuff)

[icycalm]

Yeah, with technical terms like that it is very important to spell them correctly, otherwise people don't know what you are talking about and may misunderstand your question.

[Hulkcore]

I've made it very clear it my posts that defining what makes art is an impossibility because it is opinion and people's definitions of it will always be there own. If you don't enjoy debate and discussion, why bother with a discussion forum?

[icycalm]

I enjoy debates when:

a. There is something to debate about.

AND

b. All the participants are on the same page on exactly what that thing is.


This is not a debate. It's a lol thread.

[icycalm]

Also!

I've made it very clear it my posts that defining what makes art is an impossibility because it is opinion and people's definitions of it will always be there own.

It's not opinion, it's convention. There is a HUGE difference.

[Hulkcore]

It most certainly is opinion, but whatever. You don't think it is...hint...

[icycalm]

What about the definition of the word 'chair'? Is that opinion too?

Words are defined by convention. If everyone just pulled a definition out of their ass then we wouldn't be able to communicate (see also: this thread).

So when everyone on Shmups.com agrees to a single definition of the word 'art', and to a single definition of the word 'game', then a serious discussion on the topic can begin. Until then, we are all just trolling for lols.